Crosby and Kucherov are less than 6 years apart in age, every season in Kucherov's career, Crosby has played, a few "surprising" comparisons

[Stephen]

Kucherov is a little harder to dismiss than Kovalchuk though

I just don’t think he’ll be more popular in old age. He’s great though.

 

[WarriorofTime]

I just don’t think he’ll be more popular in old age. He’s great though.

Especially if he plays into old age could be like Jagr who didn’t have the greatest reputation and had a bad Ross to Hart trophy ratio compared to more “respected” players during his prime but had a reputational glow up later.

 

[Stephen]

Especially if he plays into old age could be like Jagr who didn’t have the greatest reputation and had a bad Ross to Hart trophy ratio compared to more “respected” players during his prime but had a reputational glow up later.

I don’t think so. Part of what made Jagr so charming later on is he was seen to be playing for the love of the game and moving around the league a lot. I don’t see that with Kuch at all. Nor does he have to be liked.

 

[Cursed Lemon]

Here's how peak/prime shakes out if you're being honest.

We can be EXTREMELY generous and give Crosby his shortened seasons. We can also instead go by his two Art Ross seasons and the next season where he had his best offensive number weighted for placement first and PPG second.

The real separation is that Crosby has twelve top-10 scoring finishes while Kucherov only has five. The future will tell.

 

[HFpapi]

I worry about Crosby's legacy moving forward. He's not even retired yet and already we see the lacking of context.

Crosby's place in the league or in history cannot be summed up as merely a guy who won 2 Art Ross trophies.

If not for horrible luck with injuries he would slam dunk no questions asked have 4 Ross and 4 Hart.

The two injury shortened seasons following the Steckel hit robbed him of 2 seasons where he was just hitting his zenith. 10/11 would've been a 50+ goal 130+ point Ross/Hart/Lindsay/Rocket season masterpiece season, we all know that.

However. the two seasons after he didn't play enough games to go around gifting him any awards but I think we can all apply a little common sense and recognize that Crosby was offensively at such a different level mid-way through 10/11 that it's a pretty safe bet or at least well within reason that he would have won the Ross + Hart in the next two seasons as well provided full health.

We could've been looking at a guy with 4/5 Hart and 6/7 Ross if not for one hit in the winter classic.

Reducing his value to 3 Ross > 2 Ross so Kucherov might be on his level is to just prove you didn't live through the Crosby era.

Kucherov is amazing and might be a top 20 player when it's all said and done but Crosby is a different caliber of beast and i fear his lack of awards due to circumstance is going to lead to a lot of flawed comparisons moving forward.

 

[Video Nasty]

And in every full season he’s played (> 70 games) since his breakout season (2016-2017), he’s never finished below top 3 in scoring.

Only Crosby is allowed to get away with and even receive extra credit for those types of parameters.

 

[qcal1427]

I worry about Crosby's legacy moving forward. He's not even retired yet and already we see the lacking of context.

Crosby's place in the league or in history cannot be summed up as merely a guy who won 2 Art Ross trophies.

If not for horrible luck with injuries he would slam dunk no questions asked have 4 Ross and 4 Hart.

The two injury shortened seasons following the Steckel hit robbed him of 2 seasons where he was just hitting his zenith. 10/11 would've been a 50+ goal 130+ point Ross/Hart/Lindsay/Rocket season masterpiece season, we all know that.

However. the two seasons after he didn't play enough games to go around gifting him any awards but I think we can all apply a little common sense and recognize that Crosby was offensively at such a different level mid-way through 10/11 that it's a pretty safe bet or at least well within reason that he would have won the Ross + Hart in the next two seasons as well provided full health.

We could've been looking at a guy with 4/5 Hart and 6/7 Ross if not for one hit in the winter classic.

Reducing his value to 3 Ross > 2 Ross so Kucherov might be on his level is to just prove you didn't live through the Crosby era.

Kucherov is amazing and might be a top 20 player when it's all said and done but Crosby is a different caliber of beast and i fear his lack of awards due to circumstance is going to lead to a lot of flawed comparisons moving forward.

Agree with everything else you said but all these years later and people are still claiming that it was the Steckel "hit" and not the Hedman board that did it ...

 

[Video Nasty]

I worry about Crosby's legacy moving forward. He's not even retired yet and already we see the lacking of context.

Crosby's place in the league or in history cannot be summed up as merely a guy who won 2 Art Ross trophies.

If not for horrible luck with injuries he would slam dunk no questions asked have 4 Ross and 4 Hart.

The two injury shortened seasons following the Steckel hit robbed him of 2 seasons where he was just hitting his zenith. 10/11 would've been a 50+ goal 130+ point Ross/Hart/Lindsay/Rocket season masterpiece season, we all know that.

However. the two seasons after he didn't play enough games to go around gifting him any awards but I think we can all apply a little common sense and recognize that Crosby was offensively at such a different level mid-way through 10/11 that it's a pretty safe bet or at least well within reason that he would have won the Ross + Hart in the next two seasons as well provided full health.

We could've been looking at a guy with 4/5 Hart and 6/7 Ross if not for one hit in the winter classic.

Reducing his value to 3 Ross > 2 Ross so Kucherov might be on his level is to just prove you didn't live through the Crosby era.

Kucherov is amazing and might be a top 20 player when it's all said and done but Crosby is a different caliber of beast and i fear his lack of awards due to circumstance is going to lead to a lot of flawed comparisons moving forward.

There’s nothing to worry about it when it comes to Crosby and context. He’s already worshipped for the so-called Golden Goal, which ignores how he was nowhere near being the best player in the Olympics.

Don’t worry. There’s plenty of people alive to pencil in make believe trophies for years to come.

 

[HFpapi]

There’s nothing to worry about it when it comes to Crosby and context. He’s already worshipped for the so-called Golden Goal, which ignores how he was nowhere near being the best player in the Olympics.

Don’t worry. There’s plenty of people alive to pencil in make believe trophies for years to come.

I agree Crosby gets undue credit for 2010 Olympics. He was average at best. It's why I think people need to put more respek on Toews' name. When the best in the world gathered, he stood out above them all.

That doesn't change the fact that people who simply count awards will never get Crosby right.

 

[wetcoast]

There’s nothing to worry about it when it comes to Crosby and context. He’s already worshipped for the so-called Golden Goal, which ignores how he was nowhere near being the best player in the Olympics.

Don’t worry. There’s plenty of people alive to pencil in make believe trophies for years to come.

You can't pencil in a make believe SC though eh?

But then again you are part of the "well I really prefer this player instead so I'll cherry pick anything and everything I can" crowd.

Seriously it's not a good look.

 

[TheLegend27]

I worry about Crosby's legacy moving forward. He's not even retired yet and already we see the lacking of context.

Crosby's place in the league or in history cannot be summed up as merely a guy who won 2 Art Ross trophies.

If not for horrible luck with injuries he would slam dunk no questions asked have 4 Ross and 4 Hart.

The two injury shortened seasons following the Steckel hit robbed him of 2 seasons where he was just hitting his zenith. 10/11 would've been a 50+ goal 130+ point Ross/Hart/Lindsay/Rocket season masterpiece season, we all know that.

However. the two seasons after he didn't play enough games to go around gifting him any awards but I think we can all apply a little common sense and recognize that Crosby was offensively at such a different level mid-way through 10/11 that it's a pretty safe bet or at least well within reason that he would have won the Ross + Hart in the next two seasons as well provided full health.

We could've been looking at a guy with 4/5 Hart and 6/7 Ross if not for one hit in the winter classic.

Reducing his value to 3 Ross > 2 Ross so Kucherov might be on his level is to just prove you didn't live through the Crosby era.

Kucherov is amazing and might be a top 20 player when it's all said and done but Crosby is a different caliber of beast and i fear his lack of awards due to circumstance is going to lead to a lot of flawed comparisons moving forward.

We can do this for Lindros too, just give him five Art Rosses due to context. Crosby had plenty of chances to improve his hardware, for example 2009, 2010, 2015, 2016, 2017. The argument for Kucherov is the competition he won the Art Rosses against, combined with his peak being similar. Giving credit Kucherov is not just acknowledging he had three Art Rosses, it’s that he won three in an era of prime McDavid. Crosby doesn’t have a season comparable to Kucherov 2024 or 2019 and that’s what it took to beat McDavid.

 

[HFpapi]

We can do this for Lindros too, just give him five Art Rosses due to context. Crosby had plenty of chances to improve his hardware, for example 2009, 2010, 2015, 2016, 2017. The argument for Kucherov is the competition he won the Art Rosses against, combined with his peak being similar. I don’t think Crosby wins anything if he had to play during Prime McDavid era. Crosby doesn’t have a season comparable to Kucherov 2024 or 2019.

People always do the "well you can do this for everyone then" which tbh I do get, you can't get too much credit for the things you didn't do but with Crosby (and Mario) I really think it's different. (Not a Pens fan btw).

Lindros was never a slam dunk to win a Ross over Jagr or Forsberg or healthy Mario especially nor was he ever absolutely running away with Ross + Hart not once but twice in a season before injury (not that I'm aware of anyways).

No one can deny Crosby was well on his way to Hart/Lindsay/Ross and in one instance Rocket too in 10/11 and 12/13

 

[Video Nasty]

You can't pencil in a make believe SC though eh?

But then again you are part of the "well I really prefer this player instead so I'll cherry pick anything and everything I can" crowd.

Seriously it's not a good look.

If preferring one of the five greatest players to ever step onto the ice is a bad look, I’ll take that over the bedtime stories.

 

[Stephen]

I worry about Crosby's legacy moving forward. He's not even retired yet and already we see the lacking of context.

Crosby's place in the league or in history cannot be summed up as merely a guy who won 2 Art Ross trophies.

If not for horrible luck with injuries he would slam dunk no questions asked have 4 Ross and 4 Hart.

The two injury shortened seasons following the Steckel hit robbed him of 2 seasons where he was just hitting his zenith. 10/11 would've been a 50+ goal 130+ point Ross/Hart/Lindsay/Rocket season masterpiece season, we all know that.

However. the two seasons after he didn't play enough games to go around gifting him any awards but I think we can all apply a little common sense and recognize that Crosby was offensively at such a different level mid-way through 10/11 that it's a pretty safe bet or at least well within reason that he would have won the Ross + Hart in the next two seasons as well provided full health.

We could've been looking at a guy with 4/5 Hart and 6/7 Ross if not for one hit in the winter classic.

Reducing his value to 3 Ross > 2 Ross so Kucherov might be on his level is to just prove you didn't live through the Crosby era.

Kucherov is amazing and might be a top 20 player when it's all said and done but Crosby is a different caliber of beast and i fear his lack of awards due to circumstance is going to lead to a lot of flawed comparisons moving forward.

I dunno man. Functionally, what’s the difference between a guy who leads you to 2 cup wins and 1 cup finals vs a guy who led you to 3 cup wins and 1 cup finals but did it at a totally different and superior level? I think if you scrubbed out the Lightning bolt on Kucherov’s chest and put on an Original 6 logo, he’s right up there.

 

[wetcoast]

If preferring one of the five greatest players to ever step onto the ice is a bad look, I’ll take that over the bedtime stories.

That's fair you can spin fairy tales and the rest of us will remain in reality sounds good to me.

 

[WarriorofTime]

I worry about Crosby's legacy moving forward. He's not even retired yet and already we see the lacking of context.

Crosby's place in the league or in history cannot be summed up as merely a guy who won 2 Art Ross trophies.

If not for horrible luck with injuries he would slam dunk no questions asked have 4 Ross and 4 Hart.

The two injury shortened seasons following the Steckel hit robbed him of 2 seasons where he was just hitting his zenith. 10/11 would've been a 50+ goal 130+ point Ross/Hart/Lindsay/Rocket season masterpiece season, we all know that.

However. the two seasons after he didn't play enough games to go around gifting him any awards but I think we can all apply a little common sense and recognize that Crosby was offensively at such a different level mid-way through 10/11 that it's a pretty safe bet or at least well within reason that he would have won the Ross + Hart in the next two seasons as well provided full health.

We could've been looking at a guy with 4/5 Hart and 6/7 Ross if not for one hit in the winter classic.

Reducing his value to 3 Ross > 2 Ross so Kucherov might be on his level is to just prove you didn't live through the Crosby era.

Kucherov is amazing and might be a top 20 player when it's all said and done but Crosby is a different caliber of beast and i fear his lack of awards due to circumstance is going to lead to a lot of flawed comparisons moving forward.

Honestly Crosby's legacy is fine, and he already likely gets more benefit of the doubt hypothetical credit than probably any player before or after. Honestly think the biggest overlooked thing for Crosby is there are a whole lot of perfectly healthy seasons that still were short of Art Ross. Someone like Lemieux loses a lot of potential Art Ross in years he didn't play more but has enough healthy seasons where he did take care of business that he walks away with an impressive six. Lesser extent that's true for McDavid now too who wasn't 100 % last two years and so no Art Ross but already cleaned up in enough healthy years. Bobby Orr with Norrises same thing.

Crosby's partial/hypothetical seasons have a disproportionate effect on his legacy. Probably more so than any other easily consensus ATG. They represent perhaps his best hypothetical seasons ever and double/more than double his actual individual trophy case in terms of regular season accolades. So they are less so "yeah tack another one on" and more like the central thesis for why Daver, for instance, believes Crosby should be viewed as McDavid's equal.

No, Crosby's legacy will never be shaved down to "2 Art Ross" nor should it be. Thread title basically infers that Crosby and Kucherov would be viewed as different stratospheres, but perhaps there's a bit closer than previously believed given another monster season out of Kucherov.

 

[WarriorofTime]

Most outright unlucky season for Crosby is 2012-13 because a broken jaw is a broken jaw, it's not like 12 missed games would be 21 missed games in a regular season. The 12 missed games just represented a larger chunk of the season because it was lockout shortened. If you missed 41 games, you missed 41 games, that's just what happened. But 2012-13 is a disproportionate impact on what missing 12 games represented.

 

[Old Gregg]

The crappy thing looking back on all of Crosby's missed time is the fact a lot of it was because they assumed it was just a concussion and didn't realize he also had a neck injury which were causing similar symptoms. Had they found that sooner he wouldn't have missed so much time

 

[Sypher04]

Kucherov is supremely talented but is a cherry picker and always has been. He plays one direction only, but that one direction is at a very elite level.

 

[Video Nasty]

That's fair you can spin fairy tales and the rest of us will remain in reality sounds good to me.

The reality where I rank Crosby 6th to 8th, but will never pretend he won what some posters claim is up to eight Art Rosses?

 

[Gerulaitis]

Kucherov still might win more Cups.
He'll probably clinch another Art Ross in a few days.
He's younger than Crosby so he might finish ranked higher on the all time list

 

[wetcoast]

The reality where I rank Crosby 6th to 8th, but will never pretend he won what some posters claim is up to eight Art Rosses?

No one is seriously arguing that strawman here and people should evaluate everything instead of counting selective things.

 

[Luigi Lemieux]

Top 10 stats are tricky, the point is to compare how easy it is to score as a "top scorer" but even that can be wildly varied in similar scoring environments. The same scoring league that sees Kucherov score 144 points can see Detroit's leading scorer in the same division, a team that was 9/32 in scoring have their leading scorer end up with 72 points and a different guy with 69 points in 68 games. Of course even that metric paints a clear picture that there's not much separation in best seasons between Crosby and Kucherov.

Best Single Season Adjusted Points

23) Kucherov 2023-24: 140
43) Kucherov 2018-19: 128
53) Kucherov 2024-25: 124
60) Crosby 2006-07: 122
87) Crosby 2009-10: 117
97) Crosby 2013-14: 116
59) Kucherov 2022-23: 108
185) Crosby 2008-09: 106
185) Crosby 2012-13: 106

NHL & WHA Single Season Leaders and Records for Adjusted Points | Hockey-Reference.com

1. Howie Morenz (190), 2. Wayne Gretzky (170), 3. Cooney Weiland (168), 4. Wayne Gretzky (166), 5. Mario Lemieux (165), 6. Wayne Gretzky (163), 7. Frank Boucher (160), 8. Wayne Gretzky (159), 9. Connor McDavid (158), 10. Wayne Gretzky (156)

www.hockey-reference.com

Hockey reference adjusted stats are worthless. Unless you think Bernie Nichols 88-89 had a better season than the majority of Jagr's art ross seasons. High scoring eras are way overweighted in their adjusted stats.

 

[daver]

Hockey reference adjusted stats are worthless. Unless you think Bernie Nichols 88-89 had a better season than the majority of Jagr's art ross seasons. High scoring eras are way overweighted in their adjusted stats.

It's necessarily higher scoring eras. Mike Bossy's 147 season in 81/82, the 3rd highest non-Wayne/Mario point total of the '80s, would be good for 6th place in 98/99 after it's "adjusted".

 

[atlanticobserver]

Kucherov is supremely talented but is a cherry picker and always has been. He plays one direction only, but that one direction is at a very elite level.

Just a tired viewpoint. Crosby has been as bad or worse defensively for years, especially comparing Kucherov to other wings and Crosby to centers. Kucherov has more takeaways than “defensive stalwart” MacKinnon this year. Js