Crosby 20 straight ppg+ vs Howe 20 straight top 5 in pts?
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Coach Reggie Dunlop
Registered User
Howe pretty easy imo. Being a top 5 forward in the league for 20 years is unheard of. Even Gretzky didn’t do that.
Zirakzigil
Global Moderator
Thats cause Gretzky didnt play in a 6 team league.... Finishing top 5 in a 6 team league means you were in the top 7% of forwards. Which would be the same as the top 27 forwards today.
Coach Reggie Dunlop
Registered User
Bad argument, when the 6 teams expanded a lot of the league was watered down and expansion teams were punching bags for good players for a good period of time. So that top 27 forwards comment is ridiculous.
Acallabeth
Heart ablaze
Really? Of course 20 straight years of top 5 in scoring is a better feat.
Maybe if somebody counts Sid's straight seasons top 10 in PPG, it will be more interesting, but there are like 35 full-season PPG+ players these days.
Maybe if somebody counts Sid's straight seasons top 10 in PPG, it will be more interesting, but there are like 35 full-season PPG+ players these days.
Zirakzigil
Global Moderator
Except its not. Because if you have a subpar season the drop isnt as much. Dropping from an 82 point pace to a 70 point pace with 32 teams drops you significantly in ranking.
Yeah but the league is no longer watered down today, as it was in the 70s. There's definitely enough talent to warrant 32 teams today.
Sidney Crosby is 11th in scoring today. I bet you his current season is better then at least a couple of Howe's seasons where he finished top 5 - but becuse there was less overall talented forwards back then, a ~so-so season by Howe was enough to finish top 5.
I still vote Howe in the poll. But top 5 in a 6 team league doesn't translate to top 5 today. If you extract Howe's 20 year stretch and import it into 2005, I suspect he'd finish first some years, top 5 some years, and then have some years where he'd like ~10-20th, and maybe even slightly behind 20th once or twice. It's just a reality of a league with many more talented forwards which makes the bar for a top 5, or even top 10 finish, a lot higher than it was in past eras.
Top 5 scorer for 20 years is crazy, but completely different doing it in Howe’s time vs now. Howe did that in a league playing against guys from Ontario and Quebec. Top 5 in Howe’s era is like top 26 or 27 now
A top 5 finish obviously looks more impressive, but Howe was competing against 108 Skaters, compared to Crosby who’s competing with 576(18*32). If we look at top liners who typically get top 5-10 finishes, Howe was competing against 30 compared to 160 skaters for Crosby.
Both are extremely impressive.
Both are extremely impressive.
Cursed Lemon
Registered Bruiser
Howe had his highest point total at the age of 40 - and before you say it, it was the same scoring level as a decade prior. I think he wins the longevity argument.
But we're also talking about the absolute pinnacle of the concept. Crosby has surpassed the likes of Jagr and Messier in terms of long-term potency which would (in my humble opinion) nestle him right next to Nick Lidstrom as the 2a/2b of long-term efficacy.
But we're also talking about the absolute pinnacle of the concept. Crosby has surpassed the likes of Jagr and Messier in terms of long-term potency which would (in my humble opinion) nestle him right next to Nick Lidstrom as the 2a/2b of long-term efficacy.
BigBadBruins7708
Registered User
Howe AINEC.
Not even getting into counting 20 and 40 game seasons in Crosby's streak, the run has been inflated by the explosion in league scoring. Currently there's 58 players at or above PPG (min 40 games played)
Not even getting into counting 20 and 40 game seasons in Crosby's streak, the run has been inflated by the explosion in league scoring. Currently there's 58 players at or above PPG (min 40 games played)
BigBadBruins7708
Registered User
a 6 team league meant you didnt have JAGs to beat up on either, it was 6 all star teams.
I also love the "it was so easy in the O6" argument when it comes up. Yeah? if it was so easy then how come no one else came close to doing it?
This counter argument fails to recognize the growth of the game itself. Sure, only about 120 players made it to the NHL, so it was the “best of the best,” but when the “best of the best” was selected from a limited pool of talent to begin with, the “best of the best” argument doesn’t hold up. The league was 95% Canadian players and that’s it.
Yes, nowadays there are 32 teams and 732+ players, but the talent pool is absolutely massive compared to Howe’s era.
Hockey Outsider
Registered User
- Jan 16, 2005
- 9,067
- 13,944
To add to that, here are (probably) the next four best forwards of the Original Six era:
- Maurice Richard - 9 years in the top 5 (max 4 consecutive)
- Jean Beliveau - 8 years in the top 5 (max 3 consecutive)
- Bobby Hull - 8 years in the top 5 (max 4 consecutive)
- Stan Mikita - 9 years in the top 5 (all 9 consecutive)
jigglysquishy
Registered User
In 1968-69, Howe finished third in scoring. It was his 20th year in a row finishing top 5.
He was 41.
That equivalent season for Crosby is 2027-28.
The gap is massive.
He was 41.
That equivalent season for Crosby is 2027-28.
The gap is massive.
tarheelhockey
Offside Review Specialist
By that logic, there are about 27 legit MVP candidates in the NHL right now.
Does that ring true?
That’s absolutely insane, combined with the fact that for not one season did he sustain an injury that took him out of the race to begin with. This coming from a guy who fractured his skull in his rookie season, then began this run 3 seasons later.!!
filinski77
Registered User
- Feb 12, 2017
- 2,584
- 4,184
Extremely impressive feat for Crosby, top-tier consistency. But absolutely not more impressive or hard than Howe's stat.
Here are the number of players that had a point/gp each year - minimum 20 gp which we have to use since Crosby counts his 22 game season.
On average, 23 players per year hit this number, and on average 11 Canadian players finish point/gp. So if you want to try and adjust for the nationalization of the NHL to compare Howe vs. Crosby, top-5 in actual points > top-11 in points/gp. Crosby has also had multiple seasons where he was not top-5 in points/gp amongst Canadians.
JackSlater
Registered User
- Apr 27, 2010
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tfwnogf
Registered User
- Dec 15, 2013
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Howe's is just far superior. To have the durability required to play 20 straight seasons top 5 in points, and not have 22 game seasons count as PPG is just way way better. This isn't close by a mile.
jigglysquishy
Registered User
Season vs season (Canadian players only)
Age for age, Crosby was ahead in 6 seasons, Howe was ahead in 10, they tied in 3.
Howe is ahead, and he still has two more top 3 finishes to come. Highly unlikely Crosby is sniffing top 3 Canadian scorers in 2027-2028.
| Age (start of season) | Howe | Crosby |
| 18 | - | 3 |
| 19 | - | 1 |
| 20 | - | - |
| 21 | 3 | 1 |
| 22 | 1 | 1 |
| 23 | 1 | - |
| 24 | 1 | - |
| 25 | 1 | 3 |
| 26 | 5 | 1 |
| 27 | 2 | 3 |
| 28 | 1 | 2 |
| 29 | 4 | 2 |
| 30 | 4 | 5 |
| 31 | 5 | 2 |
| 32 | 5 | - |
| 33 | 3 | 6 |
| 34 | 1 | 9 |
| 35 | 5 | 6 |
| 36 | 3 | 3 |
| 37 | 5 | 5th (active) |
| 38 | 4 | |
| 39 | 3 | |
| 40 | 3 | |
| 41 | 9 |
Age for age, Crosby was ahead in 6 seasons, Howe was ahead in 10, they tied in 3.
Howe is ahead, and he still has two more top 3 finishes to come. Highly unlikely Crosby is sniffing top 3 Canadian scorers in 2027-2028.
WarriorofTime
Registered User
- Jul 3, 2010
- 27,586
- 15,377
It's hard to really quantify how top 5 in a six team league translates to a 30 or 32 team league. Certainly the further down league scoring you go the easier it gets because there just isn't that much competition in terms of players getting enough ice time to compete, but if the league suddenly had only six teams, McDavid, MacKinnon, Kucherov, Draisaitl, Matthews... all still have a spot in the League so it's not necessarily that hard to imagine competition for top 5 scoring is still intense. What it does (again especially further down) is make more of the "battle" so to speak for those spots occur in training camps and the like versus the season itself... which certainly makes it a bit "easier" for established players as the inertia will lead them to being more likely to hold down a top line role year to year.
