Crosby 19th Consecutive PPG Season

[Pancakes]

Merely because 22 games and a season is 82 games. I recognized the accomplishment and I think it is obvious he would have made it. But to declare it a "season"....when it really wasn't??

That said, and based on all this and your argument about McDavid, were you equally upset when McDavid as an 18 year old got beat by a 25 year old who played professionally overseas for the Calder in his injury shortened rookie season despite playing on a far worse team and actually outperforming for the duration he played?

Probably not. And it is what it is. Shit happens. That's life.

I tend to deal in what actually happens. Not what might have happened.

Was I upset that McDavid missed out on a trophy? Of course not. Why would I be as a Pens fan? Crosby had the same thing happen. He had to go up against 19 year old Ovechkin where if they'd both entered the league when they "should" have then Sid would have easily won the Calder in 05-6 (due to no OV competition) and OV would have easily won it in 04 (assuming no lockout). It is what it is.

Hell, there's a lot of luck when it comes to trophies in general and nobody wants to admit that. How many more Art Rosses would Gretzky and Lemieux have each had if they didn't have to compete against each other? Lemieux took a couple from Gretzky and vice versa.

 

[Empoleon8771]

2 Harts and 2 Art Ross sticks out as clearly not enough for a top 5 player of all time
Top 10 for sure tho

What makes Crosby the #5 best player of all time (right now, almost definitely will be surpassed by McDavid) is the range of his trophies, not the total amount. The list of players who have multiple Art Rosses, Harts, Richards (or goal scoring titles before the Richard), Lindsays and Conn Smythes is 3 players: Lemieux, Gretzky and Crosby.

To break it down:

-Players with 2 Harts: 19 (Gretzky, Howe, Shore, McDavid, Ovechkin, Lemieux, Clarke, Orr, Morenz, Crosby, Hasek, Messier, Lafleur, Esposito, Mikita, Hull, Beliveau, Cowley and Stewart)
-Players with 2 Harts and 2 Art Rosses: 11 (Gretzky, Lemieux, Howe, McDavid, Esposito, Mikita, Lafleur, Hull, Orr, Crosby and Morenz)
-Players with 2 Harts, 2 Art Rosses and 2 Richards: 6 (Gretzky, Lemieux, Howe, Esposito, Hull and Crosby)
-Players with 2 Harts, 2 Art Rosses, 2 Richards and 2 Conn Smythes: 3 (Gretzky, Lemieux and Crosby)

 

[The Grim Reaper]

I would just like to say it was really refreshing to have a face of a sports league for 20 years be free of controversies and an all-around good human being.

 

[nbwingsfan]

I agree as a Pens fan I probably would rate McDavid ahead of him given the offensive dominance that McDavid has had. Though if McDavid doesn't get a cup by the end of his career that would be a big mark against him, fair or not.

My top 10 of all time is probably:

1) Gretzky
2) Lemieux
3) Orr
4) Howe
5) McDavid
6) Crosby
7) Jagr

and after that I'd have to think about it.

Yeah he’s absolutely a top 10 player. You can make arguments for anywhere from 6-10 IMO depending on how you view prior generations where it was harder to judge than the modern NHL.

 

[snag]

ya he might not have been able to keep a ppg pace that season so it is definitely diminished. Definitely possible he would have only scored 44 points in the remaining 60 games

I don't dispute that at all.

 

[TooManyHumans]

I would just like to say it was really refreshing to have a face of a sports league for 20 years be free of controversies and an all-around good human being.

He really seems like a hockey robot.

 

[Calderon]

Sure it's impressive but TSN went apeshit and did a piece claiming more or less that this sole accomplishment is THE one that suddenly makes it official that Crosby has joined the top5 all time greatest players (not even #5 behind the big 4, mind you). Laughable. In the same vein they were already pondering where Matthews might end up in the all time list, lol.

For sure Crosby has a good claim at the #5 spot (and one can argue he'd maybe edge out Mario if you value career accomplishment over peak performance but I for one would vehemently disagree) but coming out with this kind of a statement after the guy clinches a PPG season is just funny and cringy all at once.

Besides, do these talking heads on TV ever make any effort to list a serious, say, top10 all time list?

 

[The Grim Reaper]

Sure it's impressive but TSN went apeshit and did a piece claiming more or less that this sole accomplishment is THE one that suddenly makes it official that Crosby has joined the top5 all time greatest players (not even #5 behind the big 4, mind you). Laughable. In the same vein they were already pondering where Matthews might end up in the all time list, lol.

For sure Crosby has a good claim at the #5 spot (and one can argue he'd maybe edge out Mario if you value career accomplishment over peak performance but I for one would vehemently disagree) but coming out with this kind of a statement after the guy clinches a PPG season is just funny and cringy all at once.

Besides, do these talking heads on TV ever make any effort to list a serious, say, top10 all time list?

Don’t listen to TSN, this accomplishment doesn’t make Crosby #5, his body of work does. He’ll eventually likely be #6 by the end of McDavid’s career.

He really seems like a hockey robot.

Agreed. He’s exactly what this league needed.

 

[Arthur Morgan]

Amazing feat for the best player after McDavid in the last two decades.

what has McDavid done to already place himself higher than Crosby?

 

[HFpapi]

One more point and he breaks the record for most ppg+ seasons. Incredible productive consistency.

2 harts
2 ross
2 smythe
2 rockets
3 lindsays
3 cups
2 olympic golds ( OT winning goal)
World Cup +MVP
19 straight ppg+ seasons

That right there is why he is the 5th greatest of all times. Guy has it all. Abundance of championships. MVPs etc. You name it he has done it multiple times

Accomplished all of this and STILL has a "what-if" element to him. Insane career.

He really does deserve to have 4-5 Art Ross and 3-4 Harts though. Will always suck that he lost so much time right at his zenith.

 

[TooManyHumans]

While Crosby does have the "what if" questions due to injuries, what he doesn't have that many other players have is the "what if he had really dedicated everything to hockey?" question. Every time he saw what might be considered a flaw in his game, he worked to improve at it. Dude is maybe the most boring interview I have ever heard but he is damn impressive and someone I think anyone could look to as a role model for reaching one's dreams and being the best that one can be. I can't imagine he will have many regrets about his career whenever it finally is over.

 

[Video Nasty]

what has McDavid done to already place himself higher than Crosby?

Completely outclassing him for starters.

 

[crowfish]

what has McDavid done to already place himself higher than Crosby?

(Keep in mind McDavid only just turned 27), so in roughly 10 fewer seasons than Sid this is how is resume is looking:

• Only player besides Gretzky, Lemieux, Howe to win at least 3 MVPs and 5 Art Rosses
• Only player besides Gretzky, Lemieux, Howe to lead the league in goals & assists in the same year (while maintaining the highest gpg & apg rates)
• 3rd all-time pts/game behind Gretzky, Lemieux
• 4th all-time playoff pts/game behind Gretzky, Lemieux, Draisaitl
• 8 straight seasons of 97+ points, only Gretzky has done that
• 8 straight seasons of 60+ assists, only Gretzky has done that
• 8 straight seasons of top 5 Hart voting, only Howe and Gretzky have done that
• 7 100 Pt seasons behind only Gretzky, Lemieux, Dionne
• Only player not named Gretzky or Lemieux to lead the playoffs in point scoring while playing 16 games or less (since 1979)

He is about to become the 4th player in NHL history to have a 3 digit number in the assist column.

 

[The Grim Reaper]

Oh good, I was hoping for another Crosby vs McDavid thread. Chill the f*** out, both sides. Talk about this shit in 10 years.

 

[Empoleon8771]

Completely outclassing him for starters.

I don't think McDavid out-performing Crosby at his peak is enough for him to finish above Crosby in the all-time rankings as of yet. He doesn't have a cup yet and hasn't even hit 1000 points yet.

Let's put it this way: if McDavid retired today, I don't think he would be viewed as the #5 player of all time. He'd be viewed as a massive "what if?" that didn't play long enough to break into the top-5.

 

[The Grim Reaper]

He doesn't have a cup yet…

Oh, why did you have to go there. Buckle up.

 

[Hockey Outsider]

2 Harts and 2 Art Ross sticks out as clearly not enough for a top 5 player of all time
Top 10 for sure tho

The next three forwards (after the three obvious choices) on the History forum's Top 100 list (full disclosure - I was a participant) were Hull (3 Art Ross & 2 Harts), Beliveau (1 Art Ross & 2 Harts) and Richard (zero Art Ross & 1 Hart - though peak Gordie Howe blocked him from at least 2, possibly three, scoring titles).

All three of those were excellent playoff performers (even Hull, who gets underrated because his team "only" won one Stanley Cup). Richard probably would have won 2-3 Conn Smythe trophies had it been around during his career. Beliveau won one, and probably would have won another had it been introduced earlier.

Crosby's 2 Art Ross trophies, 2 Hart trophies, and 2 Conn Smythe trophies don't look out of line next to the other common choices for the #4 forward all-time.

 

[Empoleon8771]

Oh, why did you have to go there. Buckle up.

It's a valid comment on his career so far and will be a massive stain on his resume if he doesn't end up winning one.

If he retired today, he'd go down as the more talented player but Crosby's career would be viewed as better.

 

[The Grim Reaper]

It's a valid comment on his career so far and will be a massive stain on his resume if he doesn't end up winning one.

If he retired today, he'd go down as the more talented player but Crosby's career would be viewed as better.

I get that, trust me*, but it’s going to derail this thread like the titanic. It’s a huge trigger phrase for his apologists.

*I feel like a lot of Oil fans underestimate how many of us Pens fans are McDavid fans from watching him in person (or tv) in Erie.

 

[Game 7 Meltdown]

what has McDavid done to already place himself higher than Crosby?

Made Wayne Gretzky look like an Oscar-worthy actor in that gambling ad.

 

[Video Nasty]

I don't think McDavid out-performing Crosby at his peak is enough for him to finish above Crosby in the all-time rankings as of yet. He doesn't have a cup yet and hasn't even hit 1000 points yet.

Let's put it this way: if McDavid retired today, I don't think he would be viewed as the #5 player of all time. He'd be viewed as a massive "what if?" that didn't play long enough to break into the top-5.

What ifs are extremely attractive around these parts. We can just project out and make things up to our liking. Not in this case though?

Jokes aside, I’m just not worried about this. Assuming McDavid doesn’t pile up 24 points in his final 9 games to reach 1000 this season, when he does get it less than 7 months from today, he could very well have a Cup, a Conn Smythe, and 110 career playoff points already etched into his legend.

As I’ve said countless times, I understand the Cup argument. He needs one. I expect it during one of the next two postseasons (this year or 2025).

I’ll be here to express the beginnings of my worries if he and the Oilers are not playing in the 2024 SCF.

 

[Empoleon8771]

What ifs are extremely attractive around these parts. Not in this case though?

I’m just not worried about this. Assuming McDavid doesn’t pile up 24 points in his final 9 games to reach 1000 this season, when he does get it less than 7 months from today, he could very well have a Cup, a Conn Smythe, and 110 career playoff points already etched into his legend.

As I’ve said countless times, I understand the Cup argument. He needs one. I expect it during one of the next two postseasons (this year or 2025).

I’ll be the first one to express my worry if he and the Oilers are not playing in the 2024 SCF.

If we're talking about where he ranks right now, I think that what if is relevant. He is clearly on track to overtake Crosby, he just hasn't done it yet solely because of Crosby playing in the league for a decade longer and having 3 cups.

Taking out the names entirely, it's:

Player A: 3 cups, 2 Smythes, 2 Harts, 2 Art Rosses, 2 Richards, 3 Lindsays and 1584 career points
Player B: 3 Harts, 5 Art Rosses, 1 Richard, 4 Lindsays and 976 career points

I think player A's resume is better here, and pretty much just because of the cups plus more points.

 

[Voight]

what has McDavid done to already place himself higher than Crosby?

Has double the Art Ross', has more Hart Trophies, Lindsays, 1st AST's. More top 2 point finishes, will be tied in top 3 point finishes when this season ends.

This is with McDavid playing 10 less seasons.

 

[Video Nasty]

If we're talking about where he ranks right now, I think that what if is relevant. He is clearly on track to overtake Crosby, he just hasn't done it yet solely because of Crosby playing in the league for a decade longer and having 3 cups.

Taking out the names entirely, it's:

Player A: 3 cups, 2 Smythes, 2 Harts, 2 Art Rosses, 2 Richards, 3 Lindsays and 1584 career points
Player B: 3 Harts, 5 Art Rosses, 1 Richard, 4 Lindsays and 976 career points

I think player A's resume is better here, and pretty much just because of the cups plus more points.

24 more points, another Art Ross, and the context of consecutive raw point and PPG finishes, as well as how much quicker McDavid filled up his individual cabinet case makes this perilously close to already being in McDavid’s favor.

The Cup to come ends this argument once and for all.

 

[Empoleon8771]

24 more points, another Art Ross, and the context of consecutive raw point and PPG finishes, as well as how much quicker McDavid filled up his individual cabinet case makes this perilously close to already being in McDavid’s favor.

The Cup to come ends this argument once and for all.

I just don't see this. The ~600 point difference and 3 cups (especially with the 2 Smythes) outweigh the extra individual trophies IMO.

Again, McDavid will overtake Crosby as long as he literally doesn't retire today, but I think it's premature to put him above Crosby in the all-time rankings list right now. McDavid is the more talented player, but I still think Crosby's career is better up to now.