Craig Button List Spring 2025

[SympathyForTheDevils]

Okay so three paragraphs calling me crazy. Didn’t try to rebut a thing I’ve said about the data. Of course discussing the truth you want hidden doesn’t suit you. You want it to seem all organic and innocent. Well guess what? Every country other than Canada now views it as an illegitimate process where their country gets shafted.

Do they? Has USA Hockey publically spoken about this grave issue? Has the IIHF put out a statement? Has the UN convened an emergency meeting to discuss Craig Button's Spring Rankings?

No. Nobody gives a shit, because everybody knows it doesn't matter. I doubt even Hagens himself cares about this as much as you do. There's nothing remotely special about what's happening to Hagens; "late-birthday has dominant D-1 year, gets passed by big riser in his draft year" happens often enough.

You certainly can argue that CHL players are over-valued by independent scouts like Button, or even NHL teams. But what makes your posts so bizarre is that you're essentially arguing that Canada is cheating to win a competition that doesn't even exist outside of your own mind.

 

[Pavel Buchnevich]

2025 NHL Draft top prospects: A way-too-early ranking of James Hagens, Porter Martone and more

Will two prospects go neck-and-neck for the No. 1 spot in the draft? Corey Pronman ranks the top 21 players for 2025.

www.nytimes.com

Nov 2023, Schaefer is 5th on this list

So what’s your point?

Schaefer was not viewed as a contender for the top pick. He was viewed as maybe on the edge of top 5 and likely top 10.

 

[Peasy]

Do you have any proof of this? You have a history of making up claims about me and then running away from the thread when confronted to prove your claims.

This one aged well.

 

[Peasy]

Okay, so no proof.

You just made up a claim hoping enough people would buy it because it’s convenient for your narrative that I’m a boogeyman.

What proof do you want? Anything I give you youll just say its not good enough proof, or that you didnt mean it like that.

Bro lived so rent free in your head with his ranking that you had to go on about it in his own prospect thread. You constantly talked about Button ranking him so low all year long. I'm not going to comb through thousands of posts from 6 years ago. Youre doing the same shit with Hagens this year. Its unjustifiable that people rank him lower than you perceive.

 

[Stewie Griffin]

So what’s your point?

Schaefer was not viewed as a contender for the top pick. He was viewed as maybe on the edge of top 5 and likely top 10.

That was in November of 2023. We're almost in April of 2025.

So, the point is Schaefer was seen as a top-5 pick a year and a half ago...how is that out of the realm of possibility he could rise to number 1?

You're defending Hagens the same way alot of people defended Shane Wright. Before the draft year they were both seen as the guy, didn't have a dominant draft year, and were passed by a few others.

 

[Lumber]

Canadian media member, doesnt count.

I believe Mackenzie makes it clear that theses rankings are not his but are determined by a number of NHL scouts that he talks to.

 

[Pavel Buchnevich]

He hasn't had a year like Fantilli, Celebrini, Eichel etc to cement him as the top pick.

So you mean he hasn’t padded his point totals.

Hagens has had amazing underlying metrics this season. He was one of the best players at the WJC20. Was the 1C for the Gold Medal winners.

His point totals aren’t padded because his team has no power play defenseman, so the PP sucks.

The idea he’s been mediocre this year is a perversion of reality.

He's played more similar to the Johnson/Beniers level which is still a great prospect, but not a super dominate 1OA.

So even if I take your comment at face value, those players didn’t have mediocre years.

You're right there I did meant Hlinka

Okay well we’re still at the same point. There’s no real evidence that he was a legitimate contender for the first pick at the end of last season. It only came about this season.

 

[Coaches Coroner]

Do they? Has USA Hockey publically spoken about this grave issue? Has the IIHF put out a statement? Has the UN convened an emergency meeting to discuss Craig Button's Spring Rankings?

No. Nobody gives a shit, because everybody knows it doesn't matter. I doubt even Hagens himself cares about this as much as you do. There's nothing remotely special about what's happening to Hagens; "late-birthday has dominant D-1 year, gets passed by big riser in his draft year" happens often enough.

You certainly can argue that CHL players are over-valued by independent scouts like Button, or even NHL teams. But what makes your posts so bizarre is that you're essentially arguing that Canada is cheating to win a competition that doesn't even exist outside of your own mind.

In his head he really thinks he can debate-lord his way into "winning" the "argument", but to everyone one else it just looks like the ramblings of a mad man.

 

[Pavel Buchnevich]

Do they? Has USA Hockey publically spoken about this grave issue? Has the IIHF put out a statement? Has the UN convened an emergency meeting to discuss Craig Button's Spring Rankings?

No. Nobody gives a shit, because everybody knows it doesn't matter. I doubt even Hagens himself cares about this as much as you do. There's nothing remotely special about what's happening to Hagens; "late-birthday has dominant D-1 year, gets passed by big riser in his draft year" happens often enough.

You certainly can argue that CHL players are over-valued by independent scouts like Button, or even NHL teams. But what makes your posts so bizarre is that you're essentially arguing that Canada is cheating to win a competition that doesn't even exist outside of your own mind.

So some stuffy governing body needs to speak out for fans to be of a certain opinion?

It’s no secret that Europeans don’t believe in the draft process. They claim every year on this website that the North Americans are underrating their players and don’t capture their true level. Now we’ve arrived at the same point with Americans. Craig Button has showcased that. He has every single of the best American players as low as you could possibly list them and probably even lower.

Canada is on their own island here. They are the only one that believes in the legitimacy of the NHL Draft.

 

[Pavel Buchnevich]

View attachment 999840

This one aged well.

That wasn’t what you initially claimed I said.

You should apologize for what you claimed I said not being what you found I said when you dug into it.

Instead you try to continue attacking me.

You have no integrity.

 

[Pavel Buchnevich]

That was in November of 2023. We're almost in April of 2025.

So, the point is Schaefer was seen as a top-5 pick a year and a half ago...how is that out of the realm of possibility he could rise to number 1?

You're defending Hagens the same way alot of people defended Shane Wright. Before the draft year they were both seen as the guy, didn't have a dominant draft year, and were passed by a few others.

Schaefer was seen as the 5th best player on one list at that time. Some had him lower.

There is no evidence he was in the discussion for the first overall at that time.

I’ve been here all throughout the 2025 draft process.

It was Hagens, Misa, Martone, and Frondell as potential candidates for first overall until this season.

 

[Coaches Coroner]

So some stuffy governing body needs to speak out for fans to be of a certain opinion?

It’s no secret that Europeans don’t believe in the draft process. They claim every year on this website that the North Americans are underrating their players and don’t capture their true level. Now we’ve arrived at the same point with Americans. Craig Button has showcased that. He has every single of the best American players as low as you could possibly list them and probably even lower.

Canada is on their own island here. They are the only one that believes in the legitimacy of the NHL Draft.

Write into your president, I'm sure he'll sign an executive order making James Hagens the No. 1 draft pick just for you. I'm not even joking, there is a chance he might actually do it!

Not a single country gives a shit about the NHL draft, good lord. You cite European HFboard members as proof of your conspiracy theory

 

[TheBeastCoast]

So some stuffy governing body needs to speak out for fans to be of a certain opinion?

It’s no secret that Europeans don’t believe in the draft process. They claim every year on this website that the North Americans are underrating their players and don’t capture their true level. Now we’ve arrived at the same point with Americans. Craig Button has showcased that. He has every single of the best American players as low as you could possibly list them and probably even lower.

Canada is on their own island here. They are the only one that believes in the legitimacy of the NHL Draft.

I don't think Canada "cares" about the draft like you seem to think "we" do. It is simply a tool used to disperse talent around the league. If front offices are consistently missing on talent for any reason they are going to end up losing their jobs. It is as simple as that.

 

[coooldude]

Actually, you are perverting the sequence of events.

I have cited data that backs up the differing trends (Canada’s declining NHL prowess and Canada’s improving NHL draft prowess) and asked for it to be explained.

It’s interesting that some of you aren’t even curious about these very alarming trends. You just nod along and act like it’s normal.

If you dug into it, you would find that it makes no sense.

When American GM Mike Grier, employed by German-American Owner Hasso Plattner, of American franchise San Jose, whose sole and only interest is to try to stop sucking and finally win a Stanley Cup, drafts a Canadian at 1-3 over Hagens (which I, an American-Canadian think is most likely - Schaefer, Misa, Martone, or even Frondell or Smith may be more likely for us than Hagens), I will be fascinated to see how you justify this as part of this grand conspiracy of yours.

 

[wickedwitch]

Hagens is a really special player (whether or not he deserves to be picked 1st, although I think if he falls to 6th, multiple teams will have regrets) and it sucks that most discussion of him devolves into this.

 

[Peasy]

When American GM Mike Grier, employed by German-American Owner Hasso Plattner, of American franchise San Jose, whose sole and only interest is to try to stop sucking and finally win a Stanley Cup, drafts a Canadian at 1-3 over Hagens (which I, an American-Canadian think is most likely - Schaefer, Misa, Martone, or even Frondell or Smith may be more likely for us than Hagens), I will be fascinated to see how you justify this as part of this grand conspiracy of yours.

Dont even have to talk about this year. Just look at last year, they took Dickinson when Buium was right there.

 

[HoweFan]

This anti American, anti Canadian thing is getting a little tiring. Why don’t we just wait for the draft.

 

[HabsInsideOut]

So some stuffy governing body needs to speak out for fans to be of a certain opinion?

It’s no secret that Europeans don’t believe in the draft process. They claim every year on this website that the North Americans are underrating their players and don’t capture their true level. Now we’ve arrived at the same point with Americans. Craig Button has showcased that. He has every single of the best American players as low as you could possibly list them and probably even lower.

Canada is on their own island here. They are the only one that believes in the legitimacy of the NHL Draft.

I'm genuinely curious if this is the case. Is that to mean that they view the draft as a whole as illegitimate? Do you have evidence of this?

 

[wickedwitch]

BTW, there is a difference between bias (which there undoubtedly is in many forms), stupidity, and a conspiracy.

 

[BondraTime]

Bob McKenzie quoted an NHL Head Scout in January as saying there’s nothing that can be done anymore and Matt Schaefer will be picked first.

Matt Schaefer didn’t come into the year viewed as anywhere near in contention for the top pick. He was viewed as a guy who might be just inside the top 5 or otherwise only a top 10 guy.

Then he played 17 games, and it’s been decided by the powers that be that there’s absolutely nothing that can be done for anyone to overtake him.

It’ll take a brave team (a la Montreal in 2022) to go against the orthodoxy of the player that’s been installed as the preferred candidate by the powers that be.

Schafer was ranked 2nd prior to the start of the year...

"The early line on the most credible threats to Hagens’ No. 1 status are dynamic Erie Otter defenceman Matthew Schaefer, who is No. 2 on TSN’s Pre-Season list"

James Hagens in pole position for top spot at 2025 NHL Draft | TSN

The Boston College freshman centre is the near-unanimous choice for No. 1 on Bob McKenzie's annual Pre-Season Ranking for the 2025 draft.

www.tsn.ca

 

[Pavel Buchnevich]

Schafer was ranked 2nd prior to the start of the year...

"The early line on the most credible threats to Hagens’ No. 1 status are dynamic Erie Otter defenceman Matthew Schaefer, who is No. 2 on TSN’s Pre-Season list"

James Hagens in pole position for top spot at 2025 NHL Draft | TSN

The Boston College freshman centre is the near-unanimous choice for No. 1 on Bob McKenzie's annual Pre-Season Ranking for the 2025 draft.

www.tsn.ca

As has already been discussed in this thread, that was already a little ways into the 2024-25 season draft process.

One of the two major international tournaments in the season had taken place and some leagues had already started their seasons.

 

[bert]

View attachment 999840

This one aged well.

Was so obvious watching that team that Boldy was a way better player and prospect. Couldnt believe how high turcotte went.

 

[AlternateSideParking]

View attachment 999747

11 of the top 20 21 and under scorers are Canadian.

View attachment 999748

10 out the next 20 are Canadian.

You can see here, where the US had a good run of players, and CAN had a down stretch, by looking at the top scorers ages 22 to 24.

View attachment 999749
Here, Canada has only 6 out of the top 20 scorers aged 22 to 24.

Canada has been on a heater of strong drafts since 2021.

Goaltending is in a much bigger slump, but it's still overblown, and I actually think we're already out of it, beginning with Cossa, but we'll see.

You’re including 22-year-olds in your list when you yourself said U21. Nearly all NHL players from the 2021 draft are 22 years old.

And I just don’t see how Canada’s on a “heater” when only seven of this year’s top-30 rookie scorers are from Canada. The 2022 draft is not trending upward. Of the top-25 overall scorers from that class, only seven are Canadian, or 8 percent of the 87 who were drafted. Americans have 6 in the top-25, which is 12 percent of their total 2022 pool. Only two Canadians from 2022 have played more than half this seasons. Americans have four.

Anyway, the point stands — The percentage of Canadian draft picks who hit is no better than average considering they make up 40 percent of the average draft class. The Americans are producing nearly the same number of current NHL regulars and top rookie scorers per draft class despite making up a little over 20 percent, or half of what Canada provides.

And even if you included Canada’s notable 2021 class, you still get similar hit rates. Canada has 13 NHL regulars to claim (40+ games this season), which is six percent of the 82 who were drafted. For the U.S., it’s eight NHL regulars from a pool of 50 draft picks, or 16 percent — double the hit rate of Canada.

Quality over quantity.

 

[BondraTime]

As has already been discussed in this thread, that was already a little ways into the 2024-25 season draft process.

One of the two major international tournaments in the season had taken place and some leagues had already started their seasons.

Schaefer's first game in the OHL was October 10th

This list was published September 18th

All CHL leagues started after September 20th, the NCAA started October 4th, USHL started September 18th.

All after the list was released.

 

[Peasy]

You’re including 22-year-olds in your list when you yourself said U21. Nearly all NHL players from the 2021 draft are 22 years old.

And I just don’t see how Canada’s on a “heater” when only seven of this year’s top-30 rookie scorers are from Canada. The 2022 draft is not trending upward. Of the top-25 overall scorers from that class, only seven are Canadian, or 8 percent of the 87 who were drafted. Americans have 6 in the top-25, which is 12 percent of their total 2022 pool. Only two Canadians from 2022 have played more than half this seasons. Americans have four.

Anyway, the point stands — The percentage of Canadian draft picks who hit is no better than average considering they make up 40 percent of the average draft class. The Americans are producing nearly the same number of current NHL regulars and top rookie scorers per draft class despite making up a little over 20 percent, or half of what Canada provides.

And even if you included Canada’s notable 2021 class, you still get similar hit rates. Canada has 13 NHL regulars to claim (40+ games this season), which is six percent of the 82 who were drafted. For the U.S., it’s eight NHL regulars from a pool of 50 draft picks, or 16 percent — double the hit rate of Canada.

Quality over quantity.

Wait so youre telling me the country that has a greater number of draft picks in the later rounds where getting an nhler is extremely slim, has a worse hit rate percentage than another country. Like yeah no shit. What a lazy and flawed way to try and prove this point.