COVID-19/Coronavirus Talk - Part II

[KirkOut]

Gibraltar has had a 99% vaccination rate since June 1. The consequence has been a 2,500 percent daily increase in Covid cases. As the vaccine is useless, why the push for mandatory vaccination and Covid passports? It makes no public health sense.

I am actually impressed that you were able to pull the numbers for such an obscure country without noticing that this country has had THREE covid deaths since March. Yeah, what a convincing argument that the vaccine doesn’t work.

 

[Xerloris]

I shouldn't make fun. I am impressed that global warming can tell you things, even if they are outrageously exaggerated claims. You must be special for a scientific theory to speak to you directly.

Sorry but I'm just reciting what the "scientists" have been saying for 6 decades about global warming. Or do you not count that science since it was wrong?

 

[A Real Barn Burner]

"Us and Them" China lab stories are comforting and familiar. We can intuitively brainstorm actions to stop those people, those Chinese! Thus we are back in control. Looked scary for a moment there, as if we have bigger problems than man vs. man. But it turns out to be a power vs. power thing, according to my selective acceptance of facts, and we are the biggest power. Whew. I almost felt vulnerable and inadequate for a sec. I'm not confident in my manhood, you see, so if I had to be vulnerable I'd just fall apart.

Enjoy the last few years of pro sports. Reality is coming. Earth is going to 4 C gain this century on a speeding-up rocket, and that is goodnight Irene. Nothing can stop it, not even the soulful power of anti-science, smoothbrain Missouri hick propaganda to which plenty of this community is pathetically attracted. Don't get vaccinated for free to do basic public health. There's no such thing as public health, it's just about you and your freedom. Inject your bleach and chlorine and cow semen, do it. Do it.

Global Warming distraction stories are so comforting and familiar as well. We can intuitively brainstorm thousand of actions to wreck the economy, and create an energy-industrial complex reliant of government funding to survive. Oh and the best part is when people can’t pay their energy bills, or find a job because the economy has catered, we can set up a bigger social safety network! A Win-Win Scenario I tell you! Until we can’t borrow anymore money we will have no problems! We will just print more if we can’t borrow. I mean what can go wrong! Hyper-inflation is like Sasquatch, a myth. You know what keeps me up at night though? Those evil scientist at Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory! If they figure out how to create workable Fusion technology then our justification for all the above just goes out the window. The thought of man-made global warming being solved by industrial engineering, when it is what caused the problem to begin with, is unthinkable!

Also, who cares if World War One and Two killed more people than the last great pandemic and this one combined. We only get to enjoy another 70 years of pro sports before the whole world ends in a biblical flood anyways! We should just let China do whatever they want in this world right? I mean with nuclear weapons what’s the chance of another World War? Also, I’m not sure we have enough anti-science, smoothbrain Missouri hicks in the military to fight China. The government might actually want internet posters like you to fight. Oh the humanity!

 

[A Real Barn Burner]

I am actually impressed that you were able to pull the numbers for such an obscure country without noticing that this country has had THREE covid deaths since March. Yeah, what a convincing argument that the vaccine doesn’t work.

Thanks for bringing that up I would of never looked.

Gibraltar population 33,701, total cases 5,371 (on September 7) -4,239 (March 1)=1,132. So 1,132 cases since March 1.

Gibraltar COVID: 5,409 Cases and 97 Deaths - Worldometer

The COVID case fatality rate (CFR) for Great Britain is 1.9 percent let use that for Gibraltar. Spain is 1.7 and is more likely to to have similar demographics. However Gibraltar 1.79 CFR to date might be to small of a sample.

So 1132 x 100/1.9 is an expected CFR of 21.5. The fact that 3 death equals 0.2 percent CFR is amazing. Pretty good indication that the vaccines are working to stop deaths or that the new variants are causing less hospitalizations and deaths.

It is concerning that the recent spike in cases shows the vaccines aren’t stoping the spread of COVID though. The idea of herd immunity seems to be going out the windows.

 

[AjaxManifesto]

Smart: Georgia football at highest COVID spike

Going to see more of this as we get into the Fall.

I worry about the impact to the NHL and getting fans in the building. Time will tell.

 

[EastonBlues22]

Vaccines aren't necessarily things that prevent you from getting, or transmitting, a disease.

They help your body fight it off if you do get it, reducing poor outcomes, and can help reduce viral load which decreases risk of transmission to others.

There is a reason common sense precautions like masks and proper hygiene are still recommended regardless of whether you are vaccinated or not.

 

[Ranksu]

It’s incredibly annoying.

Imagine we have currently 5 different political party in our government. Democracy.

I think that is huge difference why things are so black and white for Americans. You are either left or right. On will rule what is wrong or right. In here you listen everyone and both sides and from middle.

 

[Oh Baby!]

Vaccines aren't necessarily things that prevent you from getting, or transmitting, a disease.

They help your body fight it off if you do get it, reducing poor outcomes, and can help reduce viral load which decreases risk of transmission to others.

There is a reason common sense precautions like masks and proper hygiene are still recommended regardless of whether you are vaccinated or not.

What is this word, and how does it affect me?

 

[Majorityof1]

Sorry but I'm just reciting what the "scientists" have been saying for 6 decades about global warming. Or do you not count that science since it was wrong?

Then reference the scientists. Don't quote global warming. "According to an article in Scientific American in 2006, humanity should be extinct from global warming" is a lot different than "according to global warming, we should all be dead". The reason you didn't is because you were making a strawman, and strawman don't meed to be based in reality. I doubt many modern scientists have predicted extinction by 2021. They have predicted we are nearing the point of no return, but not that it should be over.

Even if there were examples of a scientist making an incorrect preditcion, we are unable to compare and contrast how that example was different from Covid because you refuse to give examples and instead make a blanket statement. Yes, scientists can be wrong. That is why science can never prove anything. It can only make hypotheses bases on known data and current scientific knowledge. While that is not perfect, it is much better than "I don't want to get a shot that will make my arm hurt and mainly help other people, so I am casting doubt on the science....oh science says I can take horse tranquilizer to make my penis grow bigger. That's easy. Sign me up!!!!"

I also find it ironic that one of your points was that science says half of America should be underwater. Just a week ago, a large portion of it was underwater due to Ida. The increased frequency and severity of hurricanes is caused in part by climate change. So whoever predicted that half of America should be underwater by September 2021 wasn't too far off. Yes, I know, its easier to stick your head in the sand then deal with the fact we are killing our world. Just be sure to take your head out of the sand before the next flood rolls in.

 

[A Real Barn Burner]

Vaccines aren't necessarily things that prevent you from getting, or transmitting, a disease.

They help your body fight it off if you do get it, reducing poor outcomes, and can help reduce viral load which decreases risk of transmission to others.

There is a reason common sense precautions like masks and proper hygiene are still recommended regardless of whether you are vaccinated or not.

I respect what your saying but please help me understand. My understanding of eradication efforts like small pox, and herd immunity efforts (WHO has a page about vaccinated herd immunity on its website) are dependent on how well a vaccine can help slow the spread of of a virus. SARS-COV-2 can be transmitted to other mammals so it’s not a candidate for eradication is my understanding.

Coronavirus disease (COVID-19): Herd immunity, lockdowns and COVID-19

Why is vaccinated herd immunity being discussed by WHO and others organizations at all if it is not possible? Is this not a major goal of any vaccine program?

Also I asked you before about the 15 genes in SARS-COV-2 vs 5 genes for common flu. Is this true? And how does having 3 times more genes effect the ability for us to match the circulating strain of COVID if this become endemic in our world like the Flu? Does 15 genes mean that it will mutate at some exponential huge number compared to the Flu?

 

[BlueOil]

You couldn’t pay me enough to take the vaccine

truly telling. americans value money over just about anything. including life. i assume there's just no logic involved now. pure emotion. pure rightness.

 

[Evestay]

Is this science?

Is studying this after the fact good science?


"I talked to several scientists, including Dr. Fauci who will be on
@inthebubblepod
next week, who believe that with a booster shot, it is very likely that vaccinated people will no longer be able to be contagious."
Is this hoping and dreaming, not yet based on studies, science?

Johnson prepares to overrule JCVI and offer vaccinations to all teenagers
"The UK’s Joint Committee on Vaccination and Immunisation (JCVI) has not recommended that all young people aged 12-15 are given the covid-19 vaccination, and it has instead asked ministers to seek further advice from the UK’s chief medical officers on the wider potential benefits of vaccination."

"Boris Johnson prepares to overrule JCVI and offer vaccinations to all teenagers"

Is this science?

Science didn't happen prior to 1964, correct?

 

[EastonBlues22]

I respect what your saying but please help me understand. My understanding of eradication efforts like small pox, and herd immunity efforts (WHO has a page about vaccinated herd immunity on its website) are dependent on how well a vaccine can help slow the spread of of a virus. SARS-COV-2 can be transmitted to other mammals so it’s not a candidate for eradication is my understanding.

Coronavirus disease (COVID-19): Herd immunity, lockdowns and COVID-19

Why is vaccinated herd immunity being discussed by WHO and others organizations at all if it is not possible? Is this not a major goal of any vaccine program?

Also I asked you before about the 15 genes in SARS-COV-2 vs 5 genes for common flu. Is this true? And how does having 3 times more genes effect the ability for us to match the circulating strain of COVID if this become endemic in our world like the Flu? Does 15 genes mean that it will mutate at some exponential huge number compared to the Flu?

It's a possibility, but not necessarily possible, if that makes sense. We don't know yet if it's a realistically attainable goal or not. It's a moving target based upon the transmissibility of the disease, and the effectiveness of the vaccines at reducing transmission. There might be further treatment advances that make it easier, or further mutations that make it more difficult. A lot has changed just in the 8 months since that article was last updated. Even more will change as we continue to move forward. Either way, it's a goal worth pursuing as long as there remains hope that it can be attained.

As for your question, I'm not a geneticist by degree and what you're asking is well beyond the scope of my professional training. I claim no particular insight into the genetic makeup of Covid, or how that will functionally differentiate its mutation rate from that of the Flu's. My best guess is that there is not a direct relationship between the two numbers.

My understanding is that the current mRNA vaccines code for a salient spike protein that is required for the Covid virus to enter human cells. As long as that spike protein remains relatively unchanged (and since function follows form, it likely can't change that much while still being effective) and remains identifiable by the vaccine primed immune system, the vaccines should (in theory) have some activity against any mutant variant that retains the spike protein.

I don't know how many of the Covid genes are involved in the building of that spike protein. I don't know if anyone does. How many genes are involved will affect the frequency and the degree that particular protein is likely to mutate, which could affect the effectiveness of vaccines. If the virus develops another way into cells beyond the spike protein, that could dramatically affect things. Perhaps other things that I'm completely ignorant of as well.

Vaccine effectiveness aside, the transmissibility of the virus probably depends on a lot more than just the spike protein, and could be dramatically affected by the larger gene pool. I honestly have no idea what the potential scope of that impact might be. I'm just reasonably confident that our current technology gives us a functional weapon against whatever might come up.

 

[AjaxManifesto]

Is this science?

Is studying this after the fact good science?


"I talked to several scientists, including Dr. Fauci who will be on
@inthebubblepod
next week, who believe that with a booster shot, it is very likely that vaccinated people will no longer be able to be contagious."
Is this hoping and dreaming, not yet based on studies, science?

Johnson prepares to overrule JCVI and offer vaccinations to all teenagers
"The UK’s Joint Committee on Vaccination and Immunisation (JCVI) has not recommended that all young people aged 12-15 are given the covid-19 vaccination, and it has instead asked ministers to seek further advice from the UK’s chief medical officers on the wider potential benefits of vaccination."

"Boris Johnson prepares to overrule JCVI and offer vaccinations to all teenagers"

Is this science?

Science didn't happen prior to 1964, correct?

This is why some of us are hesitant....not anti-vaxx...just hesitant. Stuff isn't adding up as it should.

 

[Mike Liut]

If me being unvaxed is a danger to you, then your vax isn’t working.

 

[BlueOil]

Is studying this after the fact good science?

i'm not going to dive in to each "gotcha journalism" picture or tweet you compiled here, but here's an article an article in response to this one.

COVID Vaccines Show No Signs of Harming Fertility or Sexual Function

the NY post article linked here uses quotes from LAST spring and suggests this issue is being ignored to activate all of your worry receptors at once, which isn't true. the article describes the progression of this issue as occurring at "breakneck speed", but you took it somehow to mean if we're not omniscient, science isn't real. i am not sure if you read the article based on your less than serious posting format, but even if you did, it's a poorly written one and something you can expect from NY Post reporting at times.

 

[Majorityof1]

If me being unvaxed is a danger to you, then your vax isn’t working.

The more unvaccinated people, the more likely a virus is going to spread. The more times a virus spreads, the more chances of a variant. The more variants, the less effective a vaccine is. By not getting vaccinated, you are increasing the likelihood that a variant makes my vaccine ineffective. You are a giant petri dish for a potentially more contagious and more lethal variant to grow.

 

[PocketNines]

Global Warming distraction stories are so comforting and familiar as well. We can intuitively brainstorm thousand of actions to wreck the economy, and create an energy-industrial complex reliant of government funding to survive. Oh and the best part is when people can’t pay their energy bills, or find a job because the economy has catered, we can set up a bigger social safety network! A Win-Win Scenario I tell you! Until we can’t borrow anymore money we will have no problems! We will just print more if we can’t borrow. I mean what can go wrong! Hyper-inflation is like Sasquatch, a myth. You know what keeps me up at night though? Those evil scientist at Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory! If they figure out how to create workable Fusion technology then our justification for all the above just goes out the window. The thought of man-made global warming being solved by industrial engineering, when it is what caused the problem to begin with, is unthinkable!

Also, who cares if World War One and Two killed more people than the last great pandemic and this one combined. We only get to enjoy another 70 years of pro sports before the whole world ends in a biblical flood anyways! We should just let China do whatever they want in this world right? I mean with nuclear weapons what’s the chance of another World War? Also, I’m not sure we have enough anti-science, smoothbrain Missouri hicks in the military to fight China. The government might actually want internet posters like you to fight. Oh the humanity!

"If humans destroyed it, humans will obviously undestroy it."

It's pathetic to assume this, much less smugly assume it. However I do see its value to you in self-serving tautology. On the one side of a smoothbrain, science can be smugly dismissed as a "distraction" when it screams from the rooftops that climate change is man-made, irreversible and code red for the species survival.

On the other side of the smoothbrain, science is NOT to be dismissed. Actually it's what will save us, you assume with contempt. You just assume an exceptionally rapid unbroken path from proving the theoretical concept of fusion to massive project funding to timely worldwide practical application via global infrastructure revolution. All the entrenched interests will make way so we can save ourselves? That's how humans behave, eh? Your vote suddenly depends on who takes climate change seriously, does it? No Manchins in any human government willing to sell out every other human because he wants coal lobbying dollars? Your thought process is so excruciatingly dishonest that it borders on degeneracy.

 

[EastonBlues22]

Is this science?

Does science (as you use the term) involve the constant revision of how we talk about or define things to reflect our best understanding of those things at the time?

Yes, that is science.

Is studying this after the fact good science?

Is science (again, as you use the term) taking action in response to an immediate crisis based upon your best understanding of a thing, while still committing yourself to learning as much as you can about that thing moving forward to fill in whatever knowledge gaps you might (or might not) have?

Yes, that is also science.

Is this hoping and dreaming, not yet based on studies, science?

I have no idea what Fauci said, or even what the context was for what he said.

There is a difference between science and opinions. People have opinions. Science is a process. "Hoping and dreaming" is what inspires a person to want to walk on the moon. Science is the process that gets you there. There is also a vast difference between science, and managing a (notoriously ignorant) public's perceptions and reactions to that science.

Is this science?

Boris Johnson is anything but a scientist. A elected politician making policy for his country may, or may not, have anything at all to do with science. It's certainly not an action that can be equated to the scientific process itself.

Science didn't happen prior to 1964, correct?

Incorrect, obviously.

As science itself has progressed, not to mention relevant things like technology, the scientific process has also progressed.

People were using genetics principles (like selective planting) for agriculture long before we even understood what a gene was. Our knowledge of genes, and subsequent ability to document, discuss, and manipulate them, has revolutionized the field to an indescribable degree since then, to the point where comparing the two different times is laughable...but that doesn't completely invalidate everything that came before, or make it less than what it was for its time.

 

[ChicagoBlues]

The indignant righteousness that I am reading in this thread is alarming, but not surprising.

 

[AjaxManifesto]

Moderna shares rise after company reveals single-shot vaccine booster for Covid and flu

https://www.cnbc.com/2021/09/09/mod...e-for-covid-and-flu-boosters-shares-gain.html

 

[Evestay]

Boris Johnson is anything but a scientist. A elected politician making policy for his country may, or may not, have anything at all to do with science. It's certainly not an action that can be equated to the scientific process itself.

This is the essence of the point of my entire post. Governments are involved in the decision-making process and it is distorting the scientific process.

Whether or not my examples are individually true, I think we agree that political interference into scientific research and advice is a dangerous thing.

 

[AjaxManifesto]

Huh?

 

[AjaxManifesto]

Oh boy...
Biden will force ALL federal workers to be vaccinated with NO testing options | Daily Mail Online

 

[AjaxManifesto]

Big COVID day. Lots of news. POTUS with his 6 point strategy speech, Fauci prepping the media, mandates coming....

Fauci warns COVID infections in U.S. are 10x too high to end pandemic