Could New Blood be the Answer to Leafs Defensive Woes?

[Pyrophorus]

Randy is a dinosaur and will be on a pretty short leash to start the year. I don't believe that with the changes Shanny has made to the Front Office he'd let a coach that doesn't buy in hang around for long unless he changes his stripes.

True. A new boss comes in, and sets a direction.
If you have an issue with it, there's the door

Gordon, Cronin, Farrish, Loiselle and Poulin, all found that out.

 

[Faltorvo]

The biggest issue with the Toronto Maple Leafs, is not Tyler Bozak as #1C, not Dion Phaneuf as #1D, nor is it the supposed leadership problems.

Most would agree that team defense, was the main reason the Leafs were on the outside looking in when the dust settled at the end of the Regular Season.

The Leafs gutted their complementary players this off-season, and will be icing an almost brand new bottom 6 forward core, along with 3 new defense. The Leafs also seem set on playing, almost an entirely new system, helped being formed by former Marlies Head Coach Steve Spott, and former Florida Panther head coach Peter Horachek.

The additions of Stephane Robidas, Roman Polak, Mike Santorelli, David Booth, Daniel Winnik, Petri Kontiola, along with bringing back Matt Frattin and Leo Komarov, and the likely promotion of Peter Holland to full time duty, and the resigning of Troy Bodie, all adds up to 1 thing. Possession.

It seems these days the best defense is not a good offense, as the Leafs seem to had tried, but rather, the best defense is possession. And when you looked at who the Leafs let go, in comparison to who they brought in, the Leafs new blood is an upgrade. Well, when you look at the majority of the advanced stats, a good chunk of them are much improved.

However, most can also tell you that advanced stats go so far, and how you implement the players is often the biggest factor.

The Toronto Maple Leafs are known to play a dump/chase style of game, or if they do carry the puck in, it's a "one and done" offense. This directly curb stomps, and spits in the face of trying to have any possession at all. On the defense, the Leafs would back up, allow the opposition to set up on the outside, and take a shot, then proceed to get the rebound and hopefully get the puck out, or the puck would be covered for a whistle and a faceoff (did I mention the Leafs are bad in this area too?)

New Leafs assistant GM Kyle Dubas said upon his hiring that there is one thing you can notice about his team in Sault St Marie. They NEVER, EVER dump and chase. New assistant coaches Steve Spott and Peter Horachek both never entailed the run and gun offenses in their strategies either, which could add up to the Leafs new system being much more possession, or "winning hockey" friendly.

So, although I didn't get in too deep, what do you think? Could the new Leafs blood, from Kyle Dubas down to David Booth, be a sign that the Leafs are transforming into a newer, more successful brand of hockey? Could the Leafs Team Defense finally be solved by bringing in possession strong players and playing more of a possession game?

This "new system" of possession and cycling will not amount to much with this roster. We just don't have the horses to pull that cart. To many players not able to nor willing to pay that kind of price.

This rolling of 4 lines is the most over used, exaggerated "buzz term" this off season and it's a comical joke TBVH.

Just watch how much of "this rolling of the 4" you will see when the game is tied or we are down by any amount of goals. It will revert back to what almost every team in the league does and that's run it's top 2 scoring lines and hope and pray that they stay on the good side of the +/- ledger.

If 8th last is the best we can manage after our tender pulls off a MVP type season, gawd forbid what will happen if he just regresses to a "good season" level of play like .915 sv%.

Add in we had the 3rd best record in OT/shoot outs, what if that regresses to the league norm?

6th best PP, if it regresses?

What if it's a little bit of all 3?

How does pain adverse Kessel handle this " tougher to play against" style of play? Do we injury issues crop up with him this season?

Save for another mvp type season from berny, this will turn into a top 5 draft season, new system or not.

 

[Mess]

How much of this is really an issue? Sure Toews is a defensive beast, OV is far from one.
I really want to know how defensively responsible are other teams top 6's are? Is plus/minus a good indicator for this? Kopitar is probably considered a a great defensive player, would he be on the Leafs?

Many people want to crucify our top 6, but are they right to?

The Leafs top line gives up more goals against at ES than any other line in the NHL.

Leafs 2nd line was Lupul (-15) --- Kadri (-11) -- Clarkson (-14) and the teams worst +/- line giving up more ES goal against then they score.

Leafs new strategy this year appears to play lines #3 and #4 more and lines #1 and #2 less hoping it will result in less goals against and greater possession #s. But its up to Leafs top 6 to improve defensively, block more shots, less giveaways and compete at a higher level with and without the puck.

 

[HoweHullOrr]

Looks like mostly shuffling chairs around to me.

Kulemin, Gunnarson, Bolland, McClement etc were all considered along our best defensive players... So it's not like we subtracted one-dimensional floaters.

Our top 6 forwards are still the same, and were IMO the #1 reason for our defensive woes last year (and prior years). Our forwards are bad at d-zone coverage and leave our d-men out to dry with all the turnovers they give up in dangerous areas.

I expect the team to be slightly better defensively, but that's mostly because it would be almost impossible to be worse, not because I think the additions actually are any better than what we had.

I hope that this is not the case, but I fear it is.

At least these players we brought in are all low dollar short term deals. Which of course makes me suspicious that what we are seeing from management is a "quiet rebuild". If that's the case, maybe there is light at the end of the tunnel.

 

[crump]

When first hired, Shanahan stated he had a lot of respect for Carlyle as a coach. While I don't think Carlyle is the right coach for the Leafs right now, you have to respect his history a little. I think that's what Shanahan is doing. But I think if the firing of his assistants wasn't a shot across his bow, then the firing of "old school" contemporaries of himself, Loiselle and Poulin certainly was.

Carlyle's strict three line coaching philosophy doesn't work when you don't have minute munchers like a Selanne, Perry, Getzlaf Pahlsson and the defense and goaltending he had in Anaheim. Simply put, he doesn't have the horses here. He has to come to terms with what he has and play to their strengths.

 

[Budsfan]

The Leafs top line gives up more goals against at ES than any other line in the NHL.

Leafs 2nd line was Lupul (-15) --- Kadri (-11) -- Clarkson (-14) and the teams worst +/- line giving up more ES goal against then they score.

Leafs new strategy this year appears to play lines #3 and #4 more and lines #1 and #2 less hoping it will result in less goals against and greater possession #s. But its up to Leafs top 6 to improve defensively, block more shots, less giveaways and compete at a higher level with and without the puck.

I think that these negative stats have more to do with the system employed by Carlyle than the players not playing their game.

I do agree that puck possession should be a piority and back checking has got to be more intense and the bottom 6 can help a lot more in all these areas.

What Shanahan seems to be doing is very similar to what Masai Ujiri did with the Raptors he strenghtened the Bench with the Gay trade, Shanahan is strengthening the bottom 6 with bringing in the players he signed.

Although the two sports differ in many ways, the concept of having a strong bench or bottom 6 should hopefully accomplish a similar out come....

 

[ULF_55]

How much of this is really an issue? Sure Toews is a defensive beast, OV is far from one.
I really want to know how defensively responsible are other teams top 6's are? Is plus/minus a good indicator for this? Kopitar is probably considered a a great defensive player, would he be on the Leafs?

Many people want to crucify our top 6, but are they right to?

Is there a need to even look at the +/- to know how poor the top 6 are defensively?

If Kopitar was on the Leafs (we can both fantasize) I'm sure he'd be a huge part of the solution.

Yes, the top 6 should be blamed.

 

[The Winter Soldier]

I read a post that suggested a new line we should ice this year.

Kadri, Kessel, and Lupul.

Our 3 fwds that led the team in giveaways last season. All minus players. Kessel was a PPG player, for him to be a minus it took a lot of give ways for this to happen.

I like this thread because this illustrates why skill is not enough to win in the NHL. When our fans realize there is more to hockey then toe drags, snap shots, and dangling to this game. We will have come a long way here.

What we need more of is, skill in all areas of the ice, like winning face-offs, less giveaways, players winning one on one battles, players that pay attention to their own zone first, players that know a safe play is better than a risky play.

The Kadri, Lupul, Kessel dream line is a great example of flash and points is less than plus/minus and winning. Defence still wins, not offence. Look at LA last season.

Scoring is for show, defence is for dough.

 

[ULF_55]

I think that these negative stats have more to do with the system employed by Carlyle than the players not playing their game.

I do agree that puck possession should be a piority and back checking has got to be more intense and the bottom 6 can help a lot more in all these areas.

What Shanahan seems to be doing is very similar to what Masai Ujiri did with the Raptors he strenghtened the Bench with the Gay trade, Shanahan is strengthening the bottom 6 with bringing in the players he signed.

Although the two sports differ in many ways, the concept of having a strong bench or bottom 6 should hopefully accomplish a similar out come....

I don't follow the Raptors, but I thought he moved out a top end player for better team players? "Star player" Gay is stated in most reports ... so for the Leafs to do a similar move who goes?

 

[ULF_55]

I read a post that suggested a new line we should ice this year.

Kadri, Kessel, and Lupul.

Our 3 fwds that led the team in giveaways last season. All minus players. Kessel was a PPG player, for him to be a minus it took a lot of give ways for this to happen.

I like this thread because this illustrates why skill is not enough to win in the NHL. When our fans realize there is more to hockey then toe drags, snap shots, and dangling to this game. We will have come a long way here.

What we need more of is, skill in all areas of the ice, like winning face-offs, less giveaways, players winning one on one battles, players that pay attention to their own zone first, players that know a safe play is better than a risky play.

The Kadri, Lupul, Kessel dream line is a great example of flash and points is less than plus/minus and winning. Defence still wins, not offence. Look at LA last season.

Scoring is for show, defence is for dough.

My favorite Leafs' player, #14 paid the price and he wasn't big, but he was an intelligent player who used smarts to play defensively. You don't have to be 6'4", 225 lbs. to be good defensively, and playing good defensively does not come at the cost of offense. Stop cheating and work harder.

 

[Budsfan]

I don't follow the Raptors, but I thought he moved out a top end player for better team players? "Star player" Gay is stated in most reports ... so for the Leafs to do a similar move who goes?

Although the Raptors did trade Gay, a good player and a few scrubs to get that strong bench, Shanahan has released a number of players and brought in players that were top players at one time and are here on 1 year contracts to play lower positions, or ones they played well at on other teams (Mike Santorelli, David Booth, Daniel Winnik, Petri Kontiola) in the line-up, in that way it is similar however as I said there are differences in the two sports but the concept is similar, the Raptors had a poor bench and the leafs had a poor bottom 6 and both seem to be improved and hopefully it will work out for the Leafs, similar to the success the Raptors had last year.

 

[Faltorvo]

I think that these negative stats have more to do with the system employed by Carlyle than the players not playing their game.

I do agree that puck possession should be a piority and back checking has got to be more intense and the bottom 6 can help a lot more in all these areas.

What Shanahan seems to be doing is very similar to what Masai Ujiri did with the Raptors he strenghtened the Bench with the Gay trade, Shanahan is strengthening the bottom 6 with bringing in the players he signed.

Although the two sports differ in many ways, the concept of having a strong bench or bottom 6 should hopefully accomplish a similar out come....

This is where you and I disagree greatly.

I don't believe for 1 second that he has improved the bottom 6 at all, at all not one little bit as a matter of fact I believe they are worse off.

 

[Daisy Jane]

This is where you and I disagree greatly.

I don't believe for 1 second that he has improved the bottom 6 at all, at all not one little bit as a matter of fact I believe they are worse off.

because....?

 

[Faltorvo]

Although the Raptors did trade Gay, a good player and a few scrubs to get that strong bench, Shanahan has released a number of players and brought in players that were top players at one time and are here on 1 year contracts to play lower positions, or ones they played well at on other teams (Mike Santorelli, David Booth, Daniel Winnik, Petri Kontiola) in the line-up, in that way it is similar however as I said there are differences in the two sports but the concept is similar, the Raptors had a poor bench and the leafs had a poor bottom 6 and both seem to be improved and hopefully it will work out for the Leafs, similar to the success the Raptors had last year.

ummm care to explain the part that I bolded?

 

[Disgruntled Observer*]

because....?

Because the far cheaper players they replaced them with are not as good at playing ice hockey.
That's why.

 

[Budsfan]

ummm care to explain the part that I bolded?

Mike Santorelli and David Booth played on first and second lines at times for the Canucks, Daniel Winnik was a very good defesive 4th line center for ANA, Petri Kontiola and Komarov were also good defensive players on their team and all these players can contribute on offense, something that was lacking last year.

 

[Pyrophorus]

Because the far cheaper players they replaced them with are not as good at playing ice hockey.
That's why.

Debatable.

I think Santorelli and Booth will work far harder then Raymond ever did.
Winnik can actually contribute towards the PK, big body, big possession.
Kontiola, we don't know anything about him.

 

[Faltorvo]

Mike Santorelli and David Booth played on first and second lines at times for the Canucks, Daniel Winnik was a very good defesive 4th line center for ANA, Petri Kontiola and Komarov were also good defensive players on their team and all these players can contribute on offense, something that was lacking last year.

I'm not sure what you have said here would equate to using the description of " were top players"

Bolland was the 2nd line C on a cup winning team

Raymond was a top 6 forward on a team that went to the cup finals

Kuli was a top 6 forward for a few seasons here

see how easy and meaningless that game is played?

 

[Faltorvo]

Mike Santorelli and David Booth played on first and second lines at times for the Canucks, Daniel Winnik was a very good defesive 4th line center for ANA, Petri Kontiola and Komarov were also good defensive players on their team and all these players can contribute on offense, something that was lacking last year.

and yet a team striving ever so close to cup contention turned their back on him, one that if had inked for what we did here ,would have been a 500k cap savings from his last deal in Anah.

a team that has 11 million in cap space right now with 22 contracts inked, hrmmmm

and they turned their backs on him when he could of come in at a 500k savings, howwww odd well or your description of him is dead wrong.

 

[Budsfan]

I'm not sure what you have said here would equate to using the description of " were top players"

Bolland was the 2nd line C on a cup winning team

Raymond was a top 6 forward on a team that went to the cup finals

Kuli was a top 6 forward for a few seasons here

see how easy and meaningless that game is played?

They were top players at their positions, on their respective clubs at one time and have for whatever reason became F/A's, for different reasons, the last two are easy Kontiola and Komarov wanted to play in N/A, Booth has had some set backs but was once thought to be a premier PF, Winnik was good in ANA but I guess wanted too much money and was replaced by a player they liked better and Santorelli I hope was like Mason just replaced by a cheaper model or didn't fit their team?

 

[Faltorvo]

Mike Santorelli and David Booth played on first and second lines at times for the Canucks, Daniel Winnik was a very good defesive 4th line center for ANA, Petri Kontiola and Komarov were also good defensive players on their team and all these players can contribute on offense, something that was lacking last year.

their teams are in the KHL, nuff said?

Konti will be a young 30 years old as he resumes his impressive NHL career with NHL game number 13

The 27 year old Koma will also be resuming his impressive NHL career with game number 43.

Age 30 and 27 with games 12 and 42 in the books, yup sounds like highly sought after players to me.

 

[Faltorvo]

They were top players at their positions, on their respective clubs at one time and have for whatever reason became F/A's, for different reasons, the last two are easy Kontiola and Komarov wanted to play in N/A, Booth has had some set backs but was once thought to be a premier PF, Winnik was good in ANA but I guess wanted too much money and was replaced by a player they liked better and Santorelli I hope was like Mason just replaced by a cheaper model or didn't fit their team?

a handful of games tried in that role does make them "top players"

 

[Faltorvo]

because....?

I see no prior track record of NHL games played to indicate that they can play at the level of the players that we let walk.

I see no demand around the league for many of these guys services either, I count at least 5 scrap heap reclamation projects brought in , guys hanging onto their NHL careers by the skin of their teeth.

Of all the new names brought in the only ones I imagine would garner anything more then scrap heap considerations are Polak (but that was a talent in ,talent out trade off),

Robi 37 year old vet coming off 2 broken legs and a playoff team that deemed he not worthy of even being a depth player for them in the POs

and Koma who at best will match what we got from Kuli.

the rest are scrap heapers,

 

[The Winter Soldier]

My favorite Leafs' player, #14 paid the price and he wasn't big, but he was an intelligent player who used smarts to play defensively. You don't have to be 6'4", 225 lbs. to be good defensively, and playing good defensively does not come at the cost of offense. Stop cheating and work harder.

Davy Keon would be a great example to some of our more talented players, it isn't all about points and assists, being a 200 ft player that plays clean and a Lady bing candidate does not mean you lack toughness or courage. Great player that some of our fans are too young to remember.

Now it's just a focus on talent and flashy offensive stats by the newer fans. Toe drags and flash do not win you cups, it's 200 ft play and substance that gets the job done. Just get me some players with less talent but are able to get the job done in all 3 zones of the ice, and I will know this team is moving fwd.

 

[Faltorvo]

because....?

guys like winnik/santo are NHL journymen, neither showing enough to their respective clubs to be kept around, how many different teams over the last 4/5 years?

Koma/Konti, two well aged players that still have yet to play 1 full NHL season, thats all red flags to me.

37 year old robidas, well past his best before date, he is here more for the off ice then on ice.

polka at best a wash for Gunner and frankly I think it will amount to a down grade simply for the fact that Dion is going to get even more exposed as the 7 million dollar farce/fraud that he is.

booth, a utter scrap heap reclamation project. his career is spiralling down so fast that he had to take a 3.1 million dollar a year pay cut, was never the same since that big concussion.