Could McDavid equal or break Gretzky's Art Ross record?

[authentic]

Sure, but without the Euros that McDavid has had to compete with (Kucherov and Draisaitl), he’d be finishing up his 8th Art Ross this season. Mario and Gretz didn’t have Russians (or Germans for that matter) to compete with. Nor did they face legit competition from star American players like nowadays.

The talent pool that McDavid is defeating is much larger than it was in the 80’s/early 90’s.

80s yes. Early 90s had dozens of Russian, American and European talent as top scorers.

 

[WarriorofTime]

100 years from now, people will still talk about Gretzky, doubt the same is true for Lemieux.

 

[Crosby2010]

Sure, but without the Euros that McDavid has had to compete with (Kucherov and Draisaitl), he’d be finishing up his 8th Art Ross this season. Mario and Gretz didn’t have Russians (or Germans for that matter) to compete with. Nor did they face legit competition from star American players like nowadays.

The talent pool that McDavid is defeating is much larger than it was in the 80’s/early 90’s.

Stastny, Dionne, Trottier, Bossy, Hawerchuk, Yzerman and Savard aren't good competition? Then Lemieux starting in the mid 1980s. It doesn't matter, Gretzky outscored them by 60-70 points routinely. You really think if Sergei Makarov was in the NHL it would have changed anything for him? Maybe Makarov would be as good as Kurri. But that doesn't change Gretzky's records. When you have a 51 game scoring streak in 1984 and your point totals in that streak (153) alone would have dominated the scoring race does it really matter that there wasn't a star player from Sweden around (and there was with Nilsson) in the NHL?

As for Lemieux nothing changed from the 1980s with a more North American NHL to the 1990s with the European invasion. In 1993:
Lemieux - 160 points (60 games)
Lafontaine - 148
Oates - 142
Yzerman - 137
Selanne - 132
Turgeon - 132
Mogilny - 127
Gilmour - 127

Top 8 in scoring has 5 Canadians, two Euros and an American

1996:
Lemieux - 161 (70 games)
Jagr - 149
Sakic - 120
Francis - 119
Forsberg - 116
Lindros - 115
Kariya - 108
Selanne - 108
Fedorov - 107
Mogilny - 107

5 Europeans and 5 Canadians in the top 10 in scoring. I am seeing a pattern here with Lemieux regardless of who he is competing against.


None of this ought to take what we see from McDavid of course, but for whatever reason there is this obsession to discredit the two most offensive players in history.

 

[onetweasy]

Lemieux's injuries were the only reason Gretzky got close to anything post '88.

The old "Lemieux's injuries count but Gretzky's don't" argument.....not the first Penguin fan to trot out this theory and you wont be the last.

 

[Ivo]

Not likely, but possible. Not for any other player, but certainly for him.

 

[Killer Orca]

Starting to wonder if 200 point season would be do able.

Every one laughed at the notion of a 140 point season.

This kid is in his prime, and with a good team, and a historical #1 PP, why not?

Nobody laughed heck I said 150 was doable this year.

 

[authentic]

100 years from now, people will still talk about Gretzky, doubt the same is true for Lemieux.

Well unless game footage of them doesn't exist anymore I really doubt that.

The old "Lemieux's injuries count but Gretzky's don't" argument.....not the first Penguin fan to trot out this theory and you wont be the last.

Gretzky's injuries came after his prime. Lemieux's already existed in his prime. He already had serious back problems in his first peak season in 1988-89

 

[WarriorofTime]

Well unless game footage of them doesn't exist anymore I really doubt that.

It's like Babe Ruth vs. Tris Speaker

 

[Pass the Saitl Sauce]

Mcdavid dropping off probably could still score 100 points at age 40 if he takes care of himself.

 

[Video Nasty]

Well unless game footage of them doesn't exist anymore I really doubt that.



Gretzky's injuries came after his prime. Lemieux's already existed in his prime. He already had serious back problems in his first peak season in 1988-89

I shouldn’t have to say it, but Mario is my second favorite player ever.

But the excuse making and ignoring reality has to stop at some point.

It’s not sexy, it doesn’t paint the same tragic picture, and thus makes the bearer of bad news come off as an unsympathetic bastard, but the back injuries were his own fault.

“Before he came from Pittsburgh with General Manager Ed Johnston, he used to be on Lemieux all the time to stretch the muscles in his trunk to prevent injury. Even McKenney could not keep Lemieux locked into his regimen, so one could imagine how it was after he left.

“Mario always had some back discomfort,” McKenney said. “The main gist of what we could gather from physician, trainer and conditioning coach discussing it was that he had a lack of flexibility in the lower back and hamstrings. Every time we took the approach of trying to lengthen that muscle and stretch it, we really got some decent results. He has shortening of those muscles and that’s what created that problem. It’s not genetic.

The exercises they are doing now with the herniated disk are the same sort we were doing to prevent it initially. I don’t think there’s any doubt he’s going to need an operation. What they’re doing now is trying to alleviate some of the bad pain he’s having and hope it will let him be involved in the playoffs. My personal opinion is that they’re prolonging the obvious: surgery.”

NHL NOTES : Lemieux's Lack of Conditioning May Have Contributed to Problem

It never fails.

www.latimes.com

 

[Dr Jan Itor]

Nobody is going to touch the raw points record, but this is the stuff that has to happen in order to have the top 5, top 3 or top 1 coversations. This stuff and the seasonal domination over peers.

 

[the4thlinegrinder]

Stastny, Dionne, Trottier, Bossy, Hawerchuk, Yzerman and Savard aren't good competition? Then Lemieux starting in the mid 1980s. It doesn't matter, Gretzky outscored them by 60-70 points routinely. You really think if Sergei Makarov was in the NHL it would have changed anything for him? Maybe Makarov would be as good as Kurri. But that doesn't change Gretzky's records. When you have a 51 game scoring streak in 1984 and your point totals in that streak (153) alone would have dominated the scoring race does it really matter that there wasn't a star player from Sweden around (and there was with Nilsson) in the NHL?

As for Lemieux nothing changed from the 1980s with a more North American NHL to the 1990s with the European invasion. In 1993:
Lemieux - 160 points (60 games)
Lafontaine - 148
Oates - 142
Yzerman - 137
Selanne - 132
Turgeon - 132
Mogilny - 127
Gilmour - 127

Top 8 in scoring has 5 Canadians, two Euros and an American

1996:
Lemieux - 161 (70 games)
Jagr - 149
Sakic - 120
Francis - 119
Forsberg - 116
Lindros - 115
Kariya - 108
Selanne - 108
Fedorov - 107
Mogilny - 107

5 Europeans and 5 Canadians in the top 10 in scoring. I am seeing a pattern here with Lemieux regardless of who he is competing against.


None of this ought to take what we see from McDavid of course, but for whatever reason there is this obsession to discredit the two most offensive players in history.

I have no such obsession. I’m a Gretzky fan as well as an Oiler fan- the 99 vs 97 debate is a win-win from my perspective. All I was pointing out is that the 2 Art Rosses that McDavid lost (19 and 20) were to players that wouldn’t have been in the NHL is the 80’s.

 

[Crosby2010]

I have no such obsession. I’m a Gretzky fan as well as an Oiler fan- the 99 vs 97 debate is a win-win from my perspective. All I was pointing out is that the 2 Art Rosses that McDavid lost (19 and 20) were to players that wouldn’t have been in the NHL is the 80’s.

Kucherov in 2019 I get. The Soviets were not in the NHL because their system didn't allow them to do so. As for Draisaitl why wouldn't he be in the NHL in the 1980s? Because he is German? He could have played if he was good enough. Who is to say he wouldn't be despite being from Germany? Either way, what is the difference between him and Peter Stastny? Stastny finished as high as 2nd and was still 72 points behind Gretzky that year. To me it is just that simple, Gretzky was just better than anyone else when he played and would be today as well. Good for McDavid, and I mean that because he is a wicked talent, but he's never dominated a scoring race until this year. 2021 was a shortened season under the conditions where you never played out of your division. It took him 8 seasons before he hit this level of domination. Gretzky already had 7 straight years of mind blowing dominance against excellent Hall of Famers by this time.

 

[RuudeDog]

maybe

 

[Calderon]

Not Auston Matthews?

I think you're the only one mentioning Matthews in this thread and for a reason. Matthews has amassed 40+ assists once, McDavid has amassed 70+ assists five times. Matthews can hang with McDavid in goal scoring but as far as total points go, they're in different leagues. Matthews could go full on Brett Hull and score 85 goals and 50 assists (we're really dreaming here) and still fall short in terms of the Art Ross Trophy.

 

[WarriorofTime]

When Gretzky put up 215 points (1985-86) here was the nationality breakdown of the NHL, based on games played that season

Canadian - 75.9 %
American - 13.9 %
Swedish - 4.9 %
Finnish - 2.4 %
Czech - 1.0 %
Slovak - 1.0 % (the Czech and Slovak guys were defectors when the national team would come to Canada for tournaments, similar to Cuban baseball players in the MLB today, not necessarily the best the country had to offer)
Italian - 0.4 %
Austrian - 0.2 %
Dutch- 0.2 %
German - 0.2 %
British - 0.0 % (1 GP)

(those last five that make up a collective 1 % were almost all Canadian trained players that were eligible to play for a different country, either because they immigrated over as small children or due to their parents' citizenship)

In 2022-23, here is the nationality breakdown of the NHL, based on games played this season

Canadian - 42.7 %
American - 28.0 %
Swedish - 10.0 %
Russian - 5.8 %
Finnish - 5.1 %
Czech - 3.0 %
Swiss - 1.7 %
German - 0.9 %
Slovak - 0.7 %
Dane - 0.5 %
Latvian - 0.4 %
Belarusian - 0.3 %
Slovenian - 0.2 %
French - 0.2 %
Dutch - 0.1 %
Australian - 0.1 %
Austrian - 0.0 % (16 GP)

Of course, the fall of the Iron Curtain gets the most attention (Eastern Europe goes from 2 % to 10.2 %), but perhaps even more significantly is the growing popularity in the United States accounting for a much larger talent pool coming from there. There is no way Auston Matthews is an NHL player had been born 30 years earlier, there just wasn't enough hockey infrastructure in Arizona to even make that possible. In addition, the percentage of Swedes and Finns have also doubled, due to increases in popularity of Ice Hockey in those countries. There are also a whole host of other countries producing NHL players that didn't used to. Someone mentioned Draistail, it's theoretically possible he could be there like Uli Hiemer was, but he was like the only one actually born and trained in Germany. There's been a whole bunch before and subsequent to Draisaitl, even though the overall percentage remains small.

The global talent pool impact is massive to look at. A full 33.2 % of players in the entire League in 1985-86 were Canadians that would have had their jobs taken away by the overall global talent pool today. That has a massive effect on the ability to put up absurd stats, especially when you consider the trickle down effect of that (i.e., a team's number 3 defenseman that's now a number 6 defenseman, etc.).

All of that doesn't even touch on improvements in technique, equipment and training.

 

[lawrence]

Absolutely he can do it. Hope to see it happen.

 

[Beukeboom]

I have no such obsession. I’m a Gretzky fan as well as an Oiler fan- the 99 vs 97 debate is a win-win from my perspective. All I was pointing out is that the 2 Art Rosses that McDavid lost (19 and 20) were to players that wouldn’t have been in the NHL is the 80’s.

But Wayne won the scoring race in every international tournament he participated in during his prime years. The best players from all countries bar Russia were also playing in the NHL during the late 80's. Not to mention post peak Wayne winning in 93-94 over every Russian and what have you.

One could also argue other sports steal talent at a higher degree today, especially in Canada.

 

[EXTRAS]

i think he can do this depending how good bedard ends up being and that mcdavid stay healthy

i also think if mario hadnt gotten cancer and wrecked his back he would have smashed that record held by gretzky

at like 37yo mario was still destroying the league.

 

[ForsbergForever]

Gretzky also had the benefit of his closest competition (Lemieux) being injured for most of his prime.

 

[Canovin]

Can't compare era cause you gotta compare best player of that era with their peers? Well then why is Gretzky is the GOAT? He should be the best of the 80s. Lemieux is the best of the 90s. Howe is the best of the 50s and 60s. Orr is the best of the 70s.

McDavid is the best of the 2010s and 2020s

 

[Killer Orca]

It's like Babe Ruth vs. Tris Speaker

Wow how have I never heard of this guy and I'm a baseball fan. Imagine if Red Sox kept him and Ruth thanks for sharing @WarriorofTime

 

[hamzarocks]

Bedard will own the ross at latest in his 3rd year

He will have 4 to 5 by the time hes 27 so im his first 9 years

I say Mcdavid takes another 2

Nobody is going to touch the raw points record, but this is the stuff that has to happen in order to have the top 5, top 3 or top 1 coversations. This stuff and the seasonal domination over peers.

Hes already top 5..

 

[Luigi Lemieux]

i think he can do this depending how good bedard ends up being and that mcdavid stay healthy

i also think if mario hadnt gotten cancer and wrecked his back he would have smashed that record held by gretzky

at like 37yo mario was still destroying the league.

Lemieux very well could have won every art ross from 1988 to 2001 if healthy.

McDavid doesn't have any peer now in the same way. All he has to do is stay healthy.

 

[Coffey]

McDavid doesn't have any peer now in the same way.

Depends who you ask...