Could Bob Gainey have made the Hall of Fame if he didn't play for Montreal?

[Michael Farkas]

He probably has a bit different a role if he had landed in a Pittsburgh type of situation I think. He wasn't untalented...not as prolific as, say, Guy Carbonneau would have been offensively in a different spot...but guys like Gainey and Lemaire get this rap sometimes that they were just out there to destroy. Those guys could be play drivers too. The had skill - Lemaire more so - their detail work was outstanding, they managed the ice a lot better than players did in that era, just a better understanding...

So, while I'm not sure if Gainey is a HOFer if he's a Pittsburgh Penguin...I bet his career numbers look a little "better", and then people might wonder why he's not in because he wasn't gonna shed the other aspects of his game haha

 

[Overrated]

The Russians thought he was the best player in the world. The NHL made an award for him. He's a hof'er wherever he plays.

I've heard the anecdote of Tikhonov supposedly praising him as the best player on the habs but do we have any exact quotes with sources?

 

[Albatros]

So, while I'm not sure if Gainey is a HOFer if he's a Pittsburgh Penguin...I bet his career numbers look a little "better", and then people might wonder why he's not in because he wasn't gonna shed the other aspects of his game haha

How much better though? We have Bernie Federko as an at best lukewarm HHoF pick with more than twice as many points in fewer games in the same era.

 

[Michael Farkas]

How much better though? We have Bernie Federko as an at best lukewarm HHoF pick with more than twice as many points in fewer games in the same era.

Carbonneau level?

 

[Michael Farkas]

I've heard the anecdote of Tikhonov supposedly praising him as the best player on the habs but do we have any exact quotes with sources?

@reckoning sparked good discussion about it here... tikhonov, gainey, best all-around player?

Seems like it was more like a "best all around" type of thing with some translation give and take. Maybe "technically perfect" in the sense that a coach might be reticent about a player's weakness more than celebratory of their strengths...Gainey didn't have a lot of glaring weaknesses shift to shift...very consistently positive. On the flip side, the ceiling was rather low relative to...whatever the reasonable subset of players is here...

 

[BadgerBruce]

I absolutely believe that Gainey belongs in the Hall of Fame. Two thumbs up.

But based on what I saw with my own two eyes, Craig Ramsay was Gainey’s equal defensively and his better offensively. As a penalty killer, Ramsay was all-world and his short handed work with Don Luce is quite possibly the best I’ve ever seen — yes, better than Gainey with Dougie Jarvis.

Gainey’s clear edge over Ramsay is in the playoffs and the international hockey space. 5 Cups and a Smythe and a Canada Cup.

But nevertheless, Craig Ramsay is at or near the top of my personal list of “best players not in the Hall” amongst North American players. Gainey is quite rightly in the Hall, and I believe Ramsay is as worthy.

 

[BigBadBruins7708]

Gainey would've eventually made it with any team. Only potential trap is being on a crap 70s expansion team and his defensive efforts not being noticed.

Carbonneau is the one who got in because of the CH on his jersey

 

[JackSlater]

People are really, really overrating the abilities of the selection committee if they think that Gainey just makes it no matter where he played. Gainey was a great defensive player. There are plenty of great defensive players with very limited offence. It's exceptionally hard for them to get in, and I have to think that being on the most defensively dominant team in NHL history, a team with an exceptionally high profile, significantly helped.

For what it's worth, I am far from convinced that Gainey is necessarily on the shortlist of best defensive forwards ever, better yet the leading contender. He's smart, fast, strong, and very defensively dependable. Great player and someone who made an impact defensively. Still doesn't stand out as clearly above other top level defensive players in an all time sense (Carbonneau for example) and while his goals against data is great, he doesn't stand above other elite players despite playing with elite defensive linemates/defencemen and likely playing less than a top line player would. I really doubt he makes it. Another one way Montreal player of that time, Shutt, is also very unlikely to make it if he played elsewhere, or at least for a mediocre team.

I absolutely believe that Gainey belongs in the Hall of Fame. Two thumbs up.

But based on what I saw with my own two eyes, Craig Ramsay was Gainey’s equal defensively and his better offensively. As a penalty killer, Ramsay was all-world and his short handed work with Don Luce is quite possibly the best I’ve ever seen — yes, better than Gainey with Dougie Jarvis.

Gainey’s clear edge over Ramsay is in the playoffs and the international hockey space. 5 Cups and a Smythe and a Canada Cup.

But nevertheless, Craig Ramsay is at or near the top of my personal list of “best players not in the Hall” amongst North American players. Gainey is quite rightly in the Hall, and I believe Ramsay is as worthy.

I was going to bring Ramsay up. If Ramsay can't get in on Buffalo, a strong team from the era but not the best team, I think its far from a lock that Gainey does.

I'm not knocking Bob Gainey, but I am going to knock modern Selke voters:

Does Bob Gainey win the vote for any Selke trophies at all in the modern NHL?

Lately, Selke votes have converted from their original purpose "to the forward who best excels in the defensive aspects of the game.”

More into:

"to the best star player who contributes defense"

or worse:

"to my favorite player who has declined offensively but I want to pretend he hasn't declined offensively by pretending he's just focusing more on defense even though there is no evidence for that and so even though he basically doesn't penalty kill or shut anyone down and the opposing teams score quite a lot when he's on the ice, I doubt most fans will look at the actual data so I'm just going to use the Selke to pump up my guy."

Since the lockout, the absolute worst offensive player to win the Selke was 99th in points, but they're actually almost always in the top 60, and quite often they are top 30.

In the recent 6 or 7 years, among players with Gainey's offensive performance, only Jordan Staal received significant consideration and Anthony Cirelli some lesser consideration. Virtually everyone else that is consistently on the Selke ballots is a top 100 offensive player.

Bob Gainey never cracked the top 150 in points in any season in his entire career. In other words, NOBODY with his level of offense has won a Selke in the past 19 years.

And without Selke trophies in the modern NHL, there would be virtually zero chance a player like Bob Gainey makes the hall of fame. So yeah, I'm going to say if you transport him to another team in another time, maybe he's in the hall of very good.

And again, that is not to say he doesn't deserve it. That's to say the modern NHL voters have perverted their Selke votes into something other than defensive value on the ice.

Lots of voters would not vote for Gainey as they openly admit that they consider points. Some have floated the idea of a minimum point threshold. NHL voters are dumb lots of the time but they rarely openly disregard the definition of the award, as they do with the Selke.

 

[Moose Head]

Now I want to know who the Kurt Rambis is.

Chawtraw

 

[tarheelhockey]

As someone who played on those 70’s Canadien teams I would say he would definitely be in regardless of where he played. We were a stacked team but he was a big part of that stack

That’s a really strange thing to lie about.

 

[tarheelhockey]

Not sure what your point here is. My point was this: Gainey won his 1st of 4 Selke's in year 5 of his career (when the trophy was introduced). For him to be the leader in number of Selke's, he would have had to win it in 3 of the first 4 years of his career as well. That simply had no chance of happening whether the award existed or not.

Aside from the obvious that voters wouldn’t likely give a rookie/sophomore a Selke, there’s also good evidence in this thread that Gainey wasn’t perceived as the best defensive forward in those early years. Bobby Clarke was in the middle of his peak and if the Selke had existed, he’d have had a clinch on it during the first few years of Gainey’s career.

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

No. The Michael Cooper of the Habs dynasty.

michael cooper is in the basketball hall of fame

As someone who played on those 70’s Canadien teams I would say he would definitely be in regardless of where he played. We were a stacked team but he was a big part of that stack

That’s a really strange thing to lie about.

TIL ken dryden reads kafka

would have taken him for more of a dickens guy

 

[MadLuke]

michael cooper is in the basketball hall of fame

Yes... ? I think that was the statement, that he would not if he was not on the dynastic Lakers.

 

[Fantomas]

michael cooper is in the basketball hall of fame

Yup.

 

[Scintillating10]

Now, Gainey definitely has the hardware for a Hall of Fame worthy player. He has five Stanley Cups, four Selke Trophies, and one Conn Smythe Trophy. Lots of hardware.

This is not me saying he shouldn't be there by any means. He is widely seen as the exception to the rule for players with his type of stats. He brought more attention to what is commonly an understated part of the game.

However, looking through some hockey discussions, I've seen some people call Gainey overrated said that he only really got to being a HOF worthy player because he was part of a dynasty team.

Do you think he could have made the Hall of Fame if he was playing for someone like the Chicago Blackhawks or the New York Rangers during the time he played in the NHL? Do you think he would have been utilized differently by them and found a different way to become Hall of Fame worthy?

If he had played for Golden Seals certainly been different

 

[JackSlater]

michael cooper is in the basketball hall of fame





TIL ken dryden reads kafka

would have taken him for more of a dickens guy

Dryden is so boring and grasping at intellectualism that I am sure he loves reading Henry James.

 

[Overrated]

It's possible he was perfect for Montreal and was indeed one of their best players yet wouldn't do as well on a different team. Such examples are extremely common in soccer where you field ten players instead of five with more specific roles. Look at someone like Busquets who played in the minors until the age of 20 and become someone recognized as one of the best in the world in his position.

 

[VanIslander]

Could Tikkanen have made the hall of fame?

If the league didn't prioritize forwards only on top-10 scoring criteria...

Esa and Claude should be ENSHRINED, remembered, as members of the Hall of Fame because they were GREAT, had FAME, and for quality play in so many important hockey history moments.

A hockey hall of fame without Esa Tikkanen, and Claude Lemieux is forgetting greatness. Letting Gainey & Carbo in should be a segue to a wing of the hall for the likes of Esa & Claude; not to mention, it is sad that the greatness of Michael Peca is not honored, to be remembered, on at least one wall of the hall.

I've been to the hall three times. It represents so many greats of hockey history, including the 1972 Summit Series in detail.

It should show all dimensions of great play in the game we love.

 

[PaulD]

Bergeron - 1,040 career points, 0.80 ppg avg
Gainey - 585 career points, 0.50 ppg avg

Even if he was better defensively (which is debatable), Gainey was no where near the all around player Bergeron was.

Both are champions, Hall of Fame legends.

 

[PaulD]

As someone who played on those 70’s Canadien teams I would say he would definitely be in regardless of where he played. We were a stacked team but he was a big part of that stack

Bob Won the Con Smythe trophy 78 play offs as well.

 

[PaulD]

If there is any shred of truth to this assertion, it's only in the sense that any player on a dynasty might be viewed differently if he played on an also-ran club. This isn't a Bob Gainey question, but a dynasty question.

This was a great player and everyone who watched him at the time thought so. Everyone, Habs fan or opposing fan, player or coach. This is only a thread that the young would start, because If you watched him in his prime, Bob Gainey's HOF bona fides are not in doubt. He was incredible. Maybe you had to be there to appreciate it.

Some fan looking at goals and assists on his smart phone.
Gainey is a Con Smythe Stanley Cup winning legend. Loved watching him play live. Ken Dryden dedicates an entire chapter to Gainey in his book "The Game"
For good reason.

 

[Staniowski]

Some fan looking at goals and assists on his smart phone.
Gainey is a Con Smythe Stanley Cup winning legend. Loved watching him play live. Ken Dryden dedicates an entire chapter to Gainey in his book "The Game"
For good reason.

Ken said if he could be a forward, he would want to be Bob Gainey.

 

[Felidae]

Unlike offense, there were no stats back then (and still aren't really now) to quantify a players defensive ability.

With the Canadiens he was in the spotlight for his entire career. Being in arguably the biggest hockey market, on a dynasty and never missing the playoffs. There was simply no way his play was going to be unrecognized, and thus he earned his reputation.

So would he still be considered the best defensive forward in the league (or all time) had he played on pretenders or non playoff teams? Maybe we'd be hearing from players, coaches and GMs how underrated he is, instead of being outright proclaimed as the best defensive forward in the league.

I'm not sure myself, but it doesn't seem too outlandish to say he wouldn't have gotten nearly as much recognition for his defensive prowess had he not been in such an ideal circumstance for the hockey world to know what he's capable of. (Strictly speaking defensively)

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

Yes... ? I think that was the statement, that he would not if he was not on the dynastic Lakers.

Yup.

duh, of course. stupid late night misread by me

 

[The Panther]

Of course he "could" have (as per the thread question), but the most likely answer is "No, he probably wouldn't have" made the Hall of Fame if he'd played for a lesser team. I cannot imagine any scenario where Gainey played for -- even if at exactly the same level -- say, the Cleveland Barons / Minnesota North Stars during his career and the NHL decides to create an award for him (and he wins it a bunch of times).

But the same can be said of most Hall of Fame players. If Guy Lafleur hadn't been drafted by the Habs, he played in Detroit instead and he suddenly has Marcel Dionne's legacy. If, in Detroit, he had a few serious injuries along the way, suddenly he has Pierre Larouche's legacy and he's not even a Hall of Famer.