OT: Coronavirus XXIX: Is This Even the Right Damn Roman Numeral? New Measures to Curb Stomp COVID?

[Frank the Tank]

The US struck deals, funded production, etc. with many companies to try and hedge their bets to get a vaccine ASAP to try and get things back to normal ASAP. Maybe Canada felt that since they didn't get hit very hard in the spring that they could wait? Not a wise idea if that was the case IMO. Given the population size and wealth of the country there really is no good excuse for basically waiting around for apple cores like Joe Dirt.

It's more complex than that. Canada also struck deals with at least 7 companies. This article gets into the nuance of the situation:

Will Canada lag behind on coronavirus vaccines? It’s complicated, experts say

 

[soothsayer]

It's more complex than that. Canada also struck deals with at least 7 companies. This article gets into the nuance of the situation:

Will Canada lag behind on coronavirus vaccines? It’s complicated, experts say

I was going to post a similar article. It's probably also worth remembering that no one really knows how or when these vaccines will roll out. (Lots of "science by media release" being taken too seriously.) At this point there's a lot of speculation.

 

[Bryanbryoil]

It's more complex than that. Canada also struck deals with at least 7 companies. This article gets into the nuance of the situation:

Will Canada lag behind on coronavirus vaccines? It’s complicated, experts say

"In anticipation of a vaccine’s arrival, the Canadian military has been looking to buy freezers that can store a coronavirus vaccine. The government posted a request for proposal online last week seeking a supplier of the sort of ultra-low temperature portable freezer that can properly store a successful vaccine candidate.
The Canadian military has also said it is preparing to help with the country’s vaccine rollout more broadly."

I am not sure when exactly the Pfizer info came out in terms of storage, but it sure seems like Canada is behind the 8 ball here. These freezers will likely be in big demand worldwide and the logistical side with the military should already be hammered out. I could be wrong but much of what I see is reactionary instead of proactive.

 

[GMofOilers]

It's more complex than that. Canada also struck deals with at least 7 companies. This article gets into the nuance of the situation:

Will Canada lag behind on coronavirus vaccines? It’s complicated, experts say

It was a screw up, plain and simple.

 

[Bryanbryoil]

I was going to post a similar article. It's probably also worth remembering that no one really knows how or when these vaccines will roll out. (Lots of "science by media release" being taken too seriously.) At this point there's a lot of speculation.

It is all speculation, however when I read that Canada is looking (as of last week) to buy freezers capable of storing the vaccines (likely the Pfizer one as it requires very cold temps) and that countries that aren't ready maybe passed up, I would be a little concerned as a Canadian. Mind you if the vaccines prove to be bad for people's health it could be a blessing in disguise if things are postponed while the rest of the world are "guinea pigs".

 

[Bryanbryoil]

It was a screw up, plain and simple.

Our plan is to send our citizens to Mexico to get the vaccine.....

 

[Raab]

So those that joined the team because they thought they could help with the crisis, abided by the rules, probably contributed positively to the team, maybe even were opposed to some of Hinshaw's views, but don't know who the leaker was so they can't out them should be executed. Sounds like something a dictator who doesn't value people whatsoever would do.

Yes unfortunately, as I said they're a team. They need to deal with the leaker themselves or all be gone. No team functions well without trust. I would hope the leaker comes forward and resigns their position knowing all their friends will be on the EI line. Thats what a good team mate would do. It was obviously someone close to Hinshaw judging from the conversations leaked.

 

[Frank the Tank]

"In anticipation of a vaccine’s arrival, the Canadian military has been looking to buy freezers that can store a coronavirus vaccine. The government posted a request for proposal online last week seeking a supplier of the sort of ultra-low temperature portable freezer that can properly store a successful vaccine candidate.
The Canadian military has also said it is preparing to help with the country’s vaccine rollout more broadly."

I am not sure when exactly the Pfizer info came out in terms of storage, but it sure seems like Canada is behind the 8 ball here. These freezers will likely be in big demand worldwide and the logistical side with the military should already be hammered out. I could be wrong but much of what I see is reactionary instead of proactive.

There's a scramble for specialty freezers everywhere, even the US, since Pfizer's mRNA vaccine announced an efficacy greater than expected.

Rural hospitals can't afford freezers to store a Covid-19 vaccine - STAT

The scale of specialty freezers required to: a) be at the front of the line to receive and store the Pfizer vaccine (which is likely to receive emergency approval first), and b) vaccinate a significant amount of one's population is unprecedented.

 

[Bryanbryoil]

There's a scramble for specialty freezers everywhere, even the US, since Pfizer's mRNA vaccine announced an efficacy greater than expected.

Rural hospitals can't afford freezers to store a Covid-19 vaccine - STAT

The scale of specialty freezers required to: a) be at the front of the line to receive and store the Pfizer vaccine (which is likely to receive emergency approval first), and b) vaccinate a significant amount of one's population is unprecedented.

No doubt so how does this affect Canada if they presumably started looking into the freezers after other countries with larger populations did? Dry ice will be in big demand as well as while the freezers are being procured they will need something to use to get the vaccines out. Canada and the US are in the same boat in terms of having a large area to cover and many rural residents. The world is competing for the same thing and the early bird gets the worm first and as of this point it looks like Canada isn't the early bird.

 

[GMofOilers]

"In anticipation of a vaccine’s arrival, the Canadian military has been looking to buy freezers that can store a coronavirus vaccine. The government posted a request for proposal online last week seeking a supplier of the sort of ultra-low temperature portable freezer that can properly store a successful vaccine candidate.
The Canadian military has also said it is preparing to help with the country’s vaccine rollout more broadly."

I am not sure when exactly the Pfizer info came out in terms of storage, but it sure seems like Canada is behind the 8 ball here. These freezers will likely be in big demand worldwide and the logistical side with the military should already be hammered out. I could be wrong but much of what I see is reactionary instead of proactive.

What we know about Pfizer's coronavirus vaccine distribution plan

Canada has dropped the ball, its really that simple, Pfizer has developed a box already that can be shipped.

Canada has no plan right now. It will lag behind lots of countries for getting a vaccination out to people that need it.

Trudeau unable to answer premiers’ questions on coronavirus vaccine rollout: sources

 

[LaGu]

The US struck deals, funded production, etc. with many companies to try and hedge their bets to get a vaccine ASAP to try and get things back to normal ASAP. Maybe Canada felt that since they didn't get hit very hard in the spring that they could wait? Not a wise idea if that was the case IMO. Given the population size and wealth of the country there really is no good excuse for basically waiting around for apple cores like Joe Dirt.

It is a bit weird, I mean Canada has bought and funded more than most I think. There was a reuters article about that I am sure. Something like 400M doses secured via contracts. Looks like the issue is distribution, or maybe approval. Someone else probably knows better.

I get when there is a big country with many regions/provinces it can be difficult. For example the EU have their massive vaccination plan ready for April 2021. Then they are sure to be able to provide distribution for all countries. But they also hedged their bets by giving each country the right to conclude their own deals and also already in advance get doses bought together. This way the individual states can roll out vaccination as soon as they manage, which is what we will probably start seeing soon. I think we are looking January as well for Europe though, very rarely do I hear mid/end December.



Edit: the one knowing more about it

It's more complex than that. Canada also struck deals with at least 7 companies. This article gets into the nuance of the situation:

Will Canada lag behind on coronavirus vaccines? It’s complicated, experts say

Again though I will add, what is said about Germany is most likely not true. Unless they go against everything they have said about vaccine distribution. US ok, I guess it will be up to Gov, UK since they left the EU of course do what they want, Germany has been chairing the EU for these last months and I doubt very much they will go against the promises made to not play favorites (even themselves).

If delivery is delayed it probably means there was no deal to do it in the first place

 

[bone]

Yes unfortunately, as I said they're a team. They need to deal with the leaker themselves or all be gone. No team functions well without trust. I would hope the leaker comes forward and resigns their position knowing all their friends will be on the EI line. Thats what a good team mate would do. It was obviously someone close to Hinshaw judging from the conversations leaked.

Alright, we obviously feel differently about how to deal with the team members, but I do agree the leaker needs to face severe consequences. They undermined the entire point of having a committee and are attempting to impair their ability to make a fair decisions using all the information at their ready. This person decided that only one viewpoint matters and took it into their own hands.

Ironically, the leaker probably claims to love democracy, but their actions suggest they only like democracy if the decision meets their approval.

 

[soothsayer]

It is all speculation, however when I read that Canada is looking (as of last week) to buy freezers capable of storing the vaccines (likely the Pfizer one as it requires very cold temps) and that countries that aren't ready maybe passed up, I would be a little concerned as a Canadian. Mind you if the vaccines prove to be bad for people's health it could be a blessing in disguise if things are postponed while the rest of the world are "guinea pigs".

Regarding the Pfizer vaccine, I'm no scientist, but I've read and heard opinions from scientists who were far less enthusiastic about it than what I was hearing from the media. (Though it's still a positive development!) Frank the Tank is probably pretty insightful on this point.

 

[Bryanbryoil]

Regarding the Pfizer vaccine, I'm no scientist, but I've read and heard opinions from scientists who were far less enthusiastic about it than what I was hearing from the media. (Though it's still a positive development!) Frank the Tank is probably pretty insightful on this point.

I'd definitely be interested in reading about this.

 

[Frank the Tank]

No doubt so how does this affect Canada if they presumably started looking into the freezers after other countries with larger populations did? Dry ice will be in big demand as well as while the freezers are being procured they will need something to use to get the vaccines out. Canada and the US are in the same boat in terms of having a large area to cover and many rural residents. The world is competing for the same thing and the early bird gets the worm first and as of this point it looks like Canada isn't the early bird.

The article states that they are looking to buy to expand their storage capacity; not that they never had any in the first place. Just like the US is working on expanding the limited capacity in rural locations, which have been the hardest hit by the pandemic as of late. Everyone is looking to expand their storage capacity right now because it may allow them to move up the pecking order for vaccine shipments produced by Pfizer. Overall, it appears that every country/region is trying to ensure that a lack of specialized vaccine storage equipment does not disqualify them from receiving the vaccines they negotiated to receive.

 

[soothsayer]

The article states that they are looking to buy to expand their storage capacity; not that they never had any in the first place. Just like the US is working on expanding the limited capacity in rural locations, which have been the hardest hit by the pandemic as of late. Everyone is looking to expand their storage capacity right now because it may allow them to move up the pecking order for vaccine shipments produced by Pfizer. Overall, it appears that every country/region is trying to ensure that a lack of specialized vaccine storage equipment does not disqualify them from receiving the vaccines they negotiated to receive.

Is the Pfizer vaccine looking like it's going to be the one? (Should I invest my life savings in the company, in other words? kidding.)

 

[Bryanbryoil]

The article states that they are looking to buy to expand their storage capacity; not that they never had any in the first place. Just like the US is working on expanding the limited capacity in rural locations, which have been the hardest hit by the pandemic as of late. Everyone is looking to expand their storage capacity right now because it may allow them to move up the pecking order for vaccine shipments produced by Pfizer. Overall, it appears that every country/region is trying to ensure that a lack of specialized vaccine storage equipment does not disqualify them from receiving the vaccines they negotiated to receive.

I must have missed that part. The bottom line is that everyone is looking for such freezers and if they are only now looking at getting quotes as of a week ago it is entirely possible that there are none in stock and that they are further down on the waiting list for new ones to be built. They may have no choice but to use dry ice if things don't work out favorably for them or the US for that matter.

 

[Frank the Tank]

Regarding the Pfizer vaccine, I'm no scientist, but I've read and heard opinions from scientists who were far less enthusiastic about it than what I was hearing from the media. (Though it's still a positive development!) Frank the Tank is probably pretty insightful on this point.

From what I've read there are numerous concerns based on the logistics and expertise to transport, store, prepare, and administer:

• The storage temperature being ~ 75C raises significant concerns about proper transport and storage, and could yield a significant increase in vaccine spoilage after distribution if the cold chain storage protocols are not followed exactly
• The vaccine must be diluted as the point of use, which places additional burden on local health care providers and increases the chance for screw-ups

This article drives home how much of a burden this places on local health providers.

Pfizer's ultra-cold vaccine, a 'very complex' distribution plan, and an exploding head emoji - CNN

"At any point, the vaccine can be removed from the shipper and put in the refrigerator, where it is good for only five days -- any longer than that and the vaccines have to be thrown away. When ready to use, nurses dilute the vaccine, making five doses with one vial. Those five shots have to be given within six hours. If more than six hours pass, the vaccines have to be thrown out."​

 

[GMofOilers]

From what I've read there are numerous concerns based on the logistics and expertise to transport, store, prepare, and administer:

• The storage temperature being ~ 75C raises significant concerns about proper transport and storage, and could yield a significant increase in vaccine spoilage after distribution if the cold chain storage protocols are not followed exactly
• The vaccine must be diluted as the point of use, which places additional burden on local health care providers and increases the chance for screw-ups

This article drives home how much of a burden this places on local health providers.

Pfizer's ultra-cold vaccine, a 'very complex' distribution plan, and an exploding head emoji - CNN

"At any point, the vaccine can be removed from the shipper and put in the refrigerator, where it is good for only five days -- any longer than that and the vaccines have to be thrown away. When ready to use, nurses dilute the vaccine, making five doses with one vial. Those five shots have to be given within six hours. If more than six hours pass, the vaccines have to be thrown out."​

Operation warp speed.

Been reading about it for months and months, thats why they will have vaccinations into people in the next couple weeks.

Canada is just starting to put together a plan. We just named a guy in charge of it today. This is where the delay for Canada is. Just incompetence is all it is.

 

[Frank the Tank]

I must have missed that part. The bottom line is that everyone is looking for such freezers and if they are only now looking at getting quotes as of a week ago it is entirely possible that there are none in stock and that they are further down on the waiting list for new ones to be built. They may have no choice but to use dry ice if things don't work out favorably for them or the US for that matter.

As with everything, the politics/optics must be considered. Most of these specialty freezers exist in large urban centers across Canada and the US. Logistically it would be easier to vaccinate the cities and then slowly acquire capacity to vaccinate rural areas (either through acquisition of proper storage equipment or waiting for vaccines with less stringent storage requirements). However, you can imagine the kerfuffle that would cause.

 

[soothsayer]

From what I've read there are numerous concerns based on the logistics and expertise to transport, store, prepare, and administer:

• The storage temperature being ~ 75C raises significant concerns about proper transport and storage, and could yield a significant increase in vaccine spoilage after distribution if the cold chain storage protocols are not followed exactly
• The vaccine must be diluted as the point of use, which places additional burden on local health care providers and increases the chance for screw-ups

This article drives home how much of a burden this places on local health providers.

Pfizer's ultra-cold vaccine, a 'very complex' distribution plan, and an exploding head emoji - CNN

"At any point, the vaccine can be removed from the shipper and put in the refrigerator, where it is good for only five days -- any longer than that and the vaccines have to be thrown away. When ready to use, nurses dilute the vaccine, making five doses with one vial. Those five shots have to be given within six hours. If more than six hours pass, the vaccines have to be thrown out."​

Thanks for this. Your technical explanations in these threads are excellent and appreciated.

 

[ThePhoenixx]

Coronavirus live updates: 'Very good chance' most Canadians will be vaccinated by September, Trudeau says | Montreal Gazette

 

[Frank the Tank]

Operation warp speed.

Been reading about it for months and months, thats why they will have vaccinations into people in the next couple weeks.

Canada is just starting to put together a plan. We just named a guy in charge of it today. This is where the delay for Canada is. Just incompetence is all it is.

The Pfizer vaccine development program was not part of Operation Warp Speed.

 

[bone]

As with everything, the politics/optics must be considered. Most of these specialty freezers exist in large urban centers across Canada and the US. Logistically it would be easier to vaccinate the cities and then slowly acquire capacity to vaccinate rural areas (either through acquisition of proper storage equipment or waiting for vaccines with less stringent storage requirements). However, you can imagine the kerfuffle that would cause.

Considering spread is most extensive in urban centres though, it's logical that the priority would be there anyways though.

 

[GMofOilers]

The Pfizer vaccine development program was not part of Operation Warp Speed.

Operation Warp Speed - Wikipedia