Copa America 2024 - Group C (USA, URU, PAN, BOL)

[gary69]

He's the worst referee I've ever seen

It was his (Kevin Ortega of Peru) second international match and maybe his last already?

 

[Tom ServoMST3K]

I thought the US played really poorly last night - especially in the second half, when they knew they needed a goal - seemed like the team was hoping for a draw when everyone knew they needed a win.

 

[robertmac43]

I don't agree. They pressed the play. What I kept saying last night was that they lacked better decision making in the final third. Maybe I'm being too generous. I dunno. I AM extremely impressed with the progression here, though. A long way to go still to be a major world threat, but they are headed in the right direction. I was extremely underwhelmed with Uruguay last night, and to be honest, expected a lot more from them.

Fair enough.

I think many Americans who are neck deep in US soccer would push back on the 'headed in the right direction' sentiment. This tournament was a step backwards for them. Losing to Panama on home soil and not making it through the group is a major failure.

 

[DaveG]

People are gonna blame the coach even though the team isn’t just gold enough lol

The the Uruguay game? No

For the complete failure to even salvage a draw against frigin Panama and not advancing out of this group in the Copa? Absolutely. Not to mention they got absolutely obliterated by Colombia leading into this tournament.

 

[Power Man]

The the Uruguay game? No

For the complete failure to even salvage a draw against frigin Panama and not advancing out of this group in the Copa? Absolutely. Not to mention they got absolutely obliterated by Colombia leading into this tournament.

Colombia is way better, that score line wasn’t a surprise at all

 

[KevFu]

Been following the USMNT for about a dozen years now. Deep, exciting player pool but it doesn't mean much when players never elevate their game, there's zero accountability, and no creativity. We are tactically inept under Berhalter.

At least we could point to growth and "signature wins" under Bradley, Arena and Jurgen. They had some seriously shallow player pools at times and did as much and more.

All that stuff doesn't matter, it's very Americanish to talk about the goal being to win trophies but the actual goal is to consistently beat the weaker teams that the US plays.

This is a great generation for the US and we have better players than we've had basically ever before so I don't want to hear excuses.

You think Panama and Uruguay have better athletes than us? No. You have tactics and then if your tactics are good, the players can carry them out,

Is it really that great of a generation? The Squad is worth 346.7m compared to Uruguay's 480.1m. The expectations are way too high for this team.

Here it is in a nutshell: From 1990-2014, US Soccer had terrible development and less skilled players. They had to find a way to win with what they had. So we had an identity, and a style that was hard to play against, and other teams had to adjust to play us.

(Skip this if you've been watching the whole time, but we didn't have elite Foot Skill like the rest of the world. But we had SIZE - and an elite keeper. So we had huge and physical defensive players who DOMINATED in the air. Your crosses are useless, so the way to beat the US was precision, on-the-ground passing - and then you have to beat our elite keeper! And we couldn't POSSESS the ball very well, so when we won the game in the air, we counter-attacked with our only two decent foot skill guys; one MF, one striker; trying to get a transition goal to upset better teams).


But NOW, with the development system cranking out our best talent with foot skill than ever before... It's still well behind the elite teams. And since we're just the same as everyone else in that regard, WE ARE EASY TO PLAY.

Our opponents can just play the same style they always play and whomever makes fewer mistakes or make better plays, will win the game. And since it's soccer, that's like 50/50.

Essentially, by GETTING BETTER TALENT, we have become the exact kind of team we used to routinely upset.

We need an identity and system that's American, hard to play against, and then just is better technically than all the old US teams who played that way, and therefore will be better than ever before. Instead, we just became ordinary.

 

[Stammertime91]

Here it is in a nutshell: From 1990-2014, US Soccer had terrible development and less skilled players. They had to find a way to win with what they had. So we had an identity, and a style that was hard to play against, and other teams had to adjust to play us.

(Skip this if you've been watching the whole time, but we didn't have elite Foot Skill like the rest of the world. But we had SIZE - and an elite keeper. So we had huge and physical defensive players who DOMINATED in the air. Your crosses are useless, so the way to beat the US was precision, on-the-ground passing - and then you have to beat our elite keeper! And we couldn't POSSESS the ball very well, so when we won the game in the air, we counter-attacked with our only two decent foot skill guys; one MF, one striker; trying to get a transition goal to upset better teams).


But NOW, with the development system cranking out our best talent with foot skill than ever before... It's still well behind the elite teams. And since we're just the same as everyone else in that regard, WE ARE EASY TO PLAY.

Our opponents can just play the same style they always play and whomever makes fewer mistakes or make better plays, will win the game. And since it's soccer, that's like 50/50.

Essentially, by GETTING BETTER TALENT, we have become the exact kind of team we used to routinely upset.

We need an identity and system that's American, hard to play against, and then just is better technically than all the old US teams who played that way, and therefore will be better than ever before. Instead, we just became ordinary.

Well said. People dog us for focusing on physicality but when you look at our teams in the past, getting a corner or free kick was like seeing the turkey approach the table at Thanksgiving. Now, we have Pulisic taking set pieces and it's just a feeling of, will this even be in the vicinity for someone to maybe scramble and get a limb on the end of it. Open play against non-CONCACAF teams is non existent by and large. Probably one of our best was against England where we had legitimate chances to win that game (and lose). Our transition typically ends with a bad touch or a poor pass in the final third.

Sure our player pool is much deeper, it's exciting, but the quality of what it takes to be a footballing side is lacking. Extremely lacking. I'd take bunker ball from Bradley over what I'm seeing because at least we could shell, clear the ball into safety, and hit a counter. The positive of having a good player pool stops the moment it hits the field. That's beyond problematic. Heads should be rolling for a lack of progress. I don't feel we've made any progress as a nation outside of the player pool (which isn't a direct measure of US Soccer's doing entirely) since we left the 2014 WC.

 

[WTG]

That Pulisic is justified is what you got out of all this? Can’t help you if that’s your level of reading comprehension.

That’s an…interesting analogy…

You were heavily implying this.

"Why was Pulisic making gestures at the ref in the first place? Because the ref was atrocious."

What does that sound like? Justification for Pulisic's actions implying that he had cause for his behavior.

 

[KevFu]

Well said. People dog us for focusing on physicality but when you look at our teams in the past, getting a corner or free kick was like seeing the turkey approach the table at Thanksgiving. Now, we have Pulisic taking set pieces and it's just a feeling of, will this even be in the vicinity for someone to maybe scramble and get a limb on the end of it. Open play against non-CONCACAF teams is non existent by and large. Probably one of our best was against England where we had legitimate chances to win that game (and lose). Our transition typically ends with a bad touch or a poor pass in the final third.

Sure our player pool is much deeper, it's exciting, but the quality of what it takes to be a footballing side is lacking. Extremely lacking. I'd take bunker ball from Bradley over what I'm seeing because at least we could shell, clear the ball into safety, and hit a counter. The positive of having a good player pool stops the moment it hits the field. That's beyond problematic. Heads should be rolling for a lack of progress. I don't feel we've made any progress as a nation outside of the player pool (which isn't a direct measure of US Soccer's doing entirely) since we left the 2014 WC.

Since this is a hockey site, let's go this comparison: The Islanders played a wide-open style under head coach Doug Weight, freedom to do whatever you wanted creatively on offense, offense first.

And the Islanders were terrible. Because their skill wasn't as good as the rest of the league so they didn't score as much. And they were the worst team in Goals Against. They lost John Tavares and were picked 31st in the NHL because Seattle hadn't started yet.

Trotz comes in, and puts in a SYSTEM and a STYLE. And pretty much the exact same roster that was terrible makes the playoffs and then 2 straight conference finals (or NHL semis).

US Soccer has done the opposite: They went from the Trotz style that played to the strengths of what they had and could overachieve and beat teams with more skill and play freaking TAMPA to one-goal games and barely losing two playoff series...

... to "Go try to out-Tampa Tampa" which doesn't work because Kucherov, Point, Stamkos are just BETTER at being Tampa than Barzal, Lee and Nelson are.


I'm not enough of a soccer mind to know what style we need to adopt that plays to the strength of the new generation of US talent and hides the weaknesses of US soccer talent.

But trying to "Out-Soccer" the rest of the world is not going to work. We're not only still worse than the big boys, but we're opening the door for teams like Panama to "upset" us by being really easy to play against

 

[Wedontneedroads]

You were heavily implying this.

"Why was Pulisic making gestures at the ref in the first place? Because the ref was atrocious."

What does that sound like? Justification for Pulisic's actions implying that he had cause for his behavior.

You are conflating explanation with justification.

I called out Pulisic’s actions as immature, childish, and petulant. I even went a step further and said the refs had nothing to do with the US being eliminated from the tournament, or even losing that game.

Even with all that, it was one of the worst officiated games I have ever seen. I still can’t believe he allowed a quick restart in the middle of giving a player a yellow card. That is one of the most basic rules in the game, and his inability to handle that fundamental situation is a microcosm of how awful he was. Refusing to shake a team Captain’s hand at the end of the game is absolutely ridiculous regardless of what has been said throughout the game. The ref was in no danger. He was being mocked for how shit he was, and couldn’t get over his own feelings to shake the hand of one of the team captains. Be better at your job if you want the respect of the best soccer players in the world or f*** off back to youth leagues.

This is going nowhere.

 

[Karterthadon]

I'm not enough of a soccer mind to know what style we need to adopt that plays to the strength of the new generation of US talent and hides the weaknesses of US soccer talent.

But trying to "Out-Soccer" the rest of the world is not going to work. We're not only still worse than the big boys, but we're opening the door for teams like Panama to "upset" us by being really easy to play against

Style and tactics will only take you so far, at the end of the day, you need the talent to beat out the big boys at the top.

I believe there's a ceiling to what US soccer can accomplish, I can see them becoming what Mexico used to be in the 80's-90's, which is boss of the CONCACAF and can make it to the 1/4 finals of a WC every now and then (maybe even a semi final with a really favorable draw) but never really a threat to win one.

But soccer remains a "niche" sport in the United States and I just don't see a path to greatness here when the best athletes in the country are spread out in too many others sports and never even set foot on a soccer field.

 

[TheMoreYouKnow]

You are conflating explanation with justification.

I called out Pulisic’s actions as immature, childish, and petulant. I even went a step further and said the refs had nothing to do with the US being eliminated from the tournament, or even losing that game.

Even with all that, it was one of the worst officiated games I have ever seen. I still can’t believe he allowed a quick restart in the middle of giving a player a yellow card. That is one of the most basic rules in the game, and his inability to handle that fundamental situation is a microcosm of how awful he was. Refusing to shake a team Captain’s hand at the end of the game is absolutely ridiculous regardless of what has been said throughout the game. The ref was in no danger. He was being mocked for how shit he was, and couldn’t get over his own feelings to shake the hand of one of the team captains. Be better at your job if you want the respect of the best soccer players in the world or f*** off back to youth leagues.

This is going nowhere.

FWIW the ref was well within his rights to give Pulisic a red card after his "come on, go over to the Urugayans and party with them" gestures at the end of the match.

 

[Stammertime91]

Since this is a hockey site, let's go this comparison: The Islanders played a wide-open style under head coach Doug Weight, freedom to do whatever you wanted creatively on offense, offense first.

And the Islanders were terrible. Because their skill wasn't as good as the rest of the league so they didn't score as much. And they were the worst team in Goals Against. They lost John Tavares and were picked 31st in the NHL because Seattle hadn't started yet.

Trotz comes in, and puts in a SYSTEM and a STYLE. And pretty much the exact same roster that was terrible makes the playoffs and then 2 straight conference finals (or NHL semis).

US Soccer has done the opposite: They went from the Trotz style that played to the strengths of what they had and could overachieve and beat teams with more skill and play freaking TAMPA to one-goal games and barely losing two playoff series...

... to "Go try to out-Tampa Tampa" which doesn't work because Kucherov, Point, Stamkos are just BETTER at being Tampa than Barzal, Lee and Nelson are.


I'm not enough of a soccer mind to know what style we need to adopt that plays to the strength of the new generation of US talent and hides the weaknesses of US soccer talent.

But trying to "Out-Soccer" the rest of the world is not going to work. We're not only still worse than the big boys, but we're opening the door for teams like Panama to "upset" us by being really easy to play against

With our starting 11, counter attack. Bunker Bob Bradley ball. The worry is our CBs aren't good enough for that style but our midfield and forwards could be. Instead, we are trying to play like Spain yet by the time we string together four passes, someone shoots or crosses to Jupiter, or a first touch fails them. Balogun, Pulisic and Weah are all better in transition and playing a counter attacking style. Musah and Reyna in the midfield with Adams as DM is how I'd line it up. Dest and Jedi at fullback. The XI doesn't even need to change, it just needs a vision and tactic laid out. We are so lethargic when we get the ball and predictable. We hardly create chances that are like oh damn we can do that? We don't. We try tiki taka nonsense and somebody's first touch always kills it. Be direct and go for goal. I'm also no opposed to a coach deploying at 442 flat so we could have Balogun and Wright on the field together.

There's more discussion of negatives and things to improve than there are positives right now and it's frustrating to watch another cycle get pissed away while Canada is making progress and Mexico is the only team we are able to consistently beat. This federation is a nightmare.

 

[Ben Grimm]

https://sports.yahoo.com/official-us-soccer-supporters-groups-call-for-gregg-berhalters-ouster-as-usmnt-coach-145409272.html

 

[KevFu]

Style and tactics will only take you so far, at the end of the day, you need the talent to beat out the big boys at the top.

I believe there's a ceiling to what US soccer can accomplish, I can see them becoming what Mexico used to be in the 80's-90's, which is boss of the CONCACAF and can make it to the 1/4 finals of a WC every now and then (maybe even a semi final with a really favorable draw) but never really a threat to win one.

But soccer remains a "niche" sport in the United States and I just don't see a path to greatness here when the best athletes in the country are spread out in too many others sports and never even set foot on a soccer field.

Style and tactics take you only so far. But that's the thing, we were ranked like 11 to 18 in the world with INFERIOR players to now, because we got the 11th to 18th RESULTS. Our talent level was probably like 40th to 60th in the world. But we took something away from every team we played (the air), were opportunistic with a counter-attack offense, and left a trail of teams going "How did we lose to THOSE guys?" in our wake.

NOW, our talent level has gone up, and maybe we're like 25th to 30th in talent; but playing possession makes every game just a "moments of quality" vs "moments of failure" contest. And the only thing that separates the 11th best team by results and the 50th best team by results is CONSISTENCY in a long string of matches adding up those moments. And that's why our results are worse. The less consistent you are, the more losses of "well, that's football" you have. Which is what the Uruguay loss Monday was.

We need to have an American style of football that still takes away something from our opponents, forces them to be different, AND has better talent so we're not in a bunker for 90 minutes and need 16 Timmy Howard 16 saves to win.

With our starting 11, counter attack. Bunker Bob Bradley ball. The worry is our CBs aren't good enough for that style but our midfield and forwards could be.

The XI doesn't even need to change, it just needs a vision and tactic laid out. We are so lethargic when we get the ball and predictable. We hardly create chances that are like oh damn we can do that?

Be direct and go for goal.

This federation is a nightmare.

I think we're on the same page. I don't want us hunkered in a bunker for 90 minutes, but with midfielders who CAN possess the ball, we don't need to be back there for 90 minutes.

Defensively, we need a backline that can shut down everyone else's aerial game, defensive mids who can disrupt foot-to-foot offense of our opponents. And THEN when we win the air, NOW we have a team of MFs who can have a decent first touch and turn to push on offense (whereas before we'd have ONE MF like that, and if he got it we'd counter, and if not, we'd just boot it long and reset).

Offensively, we need to be "Switch and go" counter attack, slicing toward the net. Because for all our possession ability we've never had before, we're not building much of any quality chances with that possession.

It's like our coaches finally that toy in the their toy chest, so that's all they want to play with!

The hard part is gonna be the whole Miracle movie thing: "I'm not looking for the best players, I'm looking for the RIGHT ones."

There's no reason why with the Development Academy system, we're not producing more and more technically gifted players, who are all trained to play OUR SYSTEM. We just can't be changing out system every 2 years.

 

[Zero Pucks Given]

Gregg Berhalter confirms he did update the USMNT players on the field that it was Panama 1-1 Bolivia before Uruguay scored. “When Bolivia equalized, it was getting that information out. That we wanna be smart, solid, that Panama is tied in the game."

Good thing our government still hasn't banned guns yet so I can shoot myself

 

[willy702]

Since this is a hockey site, let's go this comparison: The Islanders played a wide-open style under head coach Doug Weight, freedom to do whatever you wanted creatively on offense, offense first.

And the Islanders were terrible. Because their skill wasn't as good as the rest of the league so they didn't score as much. And they were the worst team in Goals Against. They lost John Tavares and were picked 31st in the NHL because Seattle hadn't started yet.

Trotz comes in, and puts in a SYSTEM and a STYLE. And pretty much the exact same roster that was terrible makes the playoffs and then 2 straight conference finals (or NHL semis).

US Soccer has done the opposite: They went from the Trotz style that played to the strengths of what they had and could overachieve and beat teams with more skill and play freaking TAMPA to one-goal games and barely losing two playoff series...

... to "Go try to out-Tampa Tampa" which doesn't work because Kucherov, Point, Stamkos are just BETTER at being Tampa than Barzal, Lee and Nelson are.


I'm not enough of a soccer mind to know what style we need to adopt that plays to the strength of the new generation of US talent and hides the weaknesses of US soccer talent.

But trying to "Out-Soccer" the rest of the world is not going to work. We're not only still worse than the big boys, but we're opening the door for teams like Panama to "upset" us by being really easy to play against

These are fair points but I don't see the need to go back to bunker ball and play a different style than the world. A better way to look at it is this is a team like the Sens at the moment. We felt like the endless wait to move up and start contending was about to happen and then poof, we had a bad season or tournament. It's a setback for sure but a lot of these comments miss the point that players need to develop with their clubs. The NT and coaches don't get enough time to do that. This is what Klinsmann was saying and he got some pushback because the MLS was getting better. Still doesn't change the fact that MLS players don't really have a spot on the NT in bigger tournaments.

Yes they can't out soccer the powers now and probably won't in 2026. We put expectations on them that might be a little unrealistic but also a little overblown. What was to be learned from a couple of games here? Well we learned Berhalter ain't it and a couple of guys need to work on their discipline. We learned we can't beat middling teams down a man. We learned this all ain't going to be easy. We also leaned Balogun is the best 9 we have. We saw further proof that Geo ain't a goddamn 6.

Plenty of stuff could be learned and improved upon with a better coach who sees what's needed. And that's competition for spots, competition for roles, competition for what style and formation is going to work best. On the good side, we can look at this pool of players and see we don't have a real need to do shit like play guys out of position because we don't have a credible option. Wasn't long ago playing Sargeant as a False 9 was about as good an idea as we had. Heck remember when they moved Beasley way back the field because a left back didn't seem to exist in the US dictionary?

So yeah even if we lack a top 10 roster, it's getting better and no need to go back steps just to get a little better result here and there.

 

[KevFu]

These are fair points but I don't see the need to go back to bunker ball and play a different style than the world. A better way to look at it is this is a team like the Sens at the moment. We felt like the endless wait to move up and start contending was about to happen and then poof, we had a bad season or tournament. It's a setback for sure but a lot of these comments miss the point that players need to develop with their clubs. The NT and coaches don't get enough time to do that. This is what Klinsmann was saying and he got some pushback because the MLS was getting better. Still doesn't change the fact that MLS players don't really have a spot on the NT in bigger tournaments.

MLS really isn't a factor, other than their youth development academies are the ones created the most talented players in the US; and then selling those academy products to better leagues.

The guys on the USMNT are "beyond" MLS. Who we talking on MLS guys who didn't make the Copa roster? Like four guys?

I think it's more style/system and identity than it is "Development" because the evidence that our development is A LOT better is present: We've gone from 0 guys who were champions' league club players to like 7+. And from a handful of role players on Big Five league clubs to most our roster. And instead of having 6 guys "Better than MLS," we have less than 6 guys who AREN'T "better than MLS."

And I'm not saying it needs to be "bunker ball." The main aspect is something that forces opponents to play different because we neutralize one part of offense. In the past, it was was our height/strength. (I personally like that kind of aspect because I'm a hockey-first guy and it's tough), but it also makes sense strategically... that means you wins the 50/50 balls in the air, on set pieces, and on crosses!

If you win the balls in the air in the defensive midfield, you're just going to possess the ball even more, and our possession stats have gone up massively.

 

[willy702]

MLS really isn't a factor, other than their youth development academies are the ones created the most talented players in the US; and then selling those academy products to better leagues.

The guys on the USMNT are "beyond" MLS. Who we talking on MLS guys who didn't make the Copa roster? Like four guys?

I think it's more style/system and identity than it is "Development" because the evidence that our development is A LOT better is present: We've gone from 0 guys who were champions' league club players to like 7+. And from a handful of role players on Big Five league clubs to most our roster. And instead of having 6 guys "Better than MLS," we have less than 6 guys who AREN'T "better than MLS."

And I'm not saying it needs to be "bunker ball." The main aspect is something that forces opponents to play different because we neutralize one part of offense. In the past, it was was our height/strength. (I personally like that kind of aspect because I'm a hockey-first guy and it's tough), but it also makes sense strategically... that means you wins the 50/50 balls in the air, on set pieces, and on crosses!

If you win the balls in the air in the defensive midfield, you're just going to possess the ball even more, and our possession stats have gone up massively.

Of course it isn't and it should not be. My point is Klinsmann said if you are in the MLS get yourself to Europe or else we don't have a spot for you. That should be the motivation and since Berhalter still brought a few players over to Qatar the mission is not complete. It should indeed be a development path and the youth efforts have been a start to it.

 

[Savant]

He’s staying

 

[willy702]

He’s staying

Ridiculous if true. Maybe they are asking Klopp and a few others and when getting the no thanks response they feel they have no choice about Clueless Greg

 

[Savant]

Ridiculous if true. Maybe they are asking Klopp and a few others and when getting the no thanks response they feel they have no choice about Clueless Greg

I mean that’s like saying Ana De Armas wouldn’t go out with me so I stayed with my current partner

No reason to wait on it if he is leaving. They are probably hoping it blows over

 

[KevFu]

That tweet is misleading.

FOX merely put the LAST "failure to fired" timeline for US Soccer, and projected it onto this failure.

It took 10 days for US Soccer to fire the women's coach after the WWC failure, so expect the announcement 10 days after Monday's failure.

 

[KevFu]

Of course it isn't and it should not be. My point is Klinsmann said if you are in the MLS get yourself to Europe or else we don't have a spot for you. That should be the motivation and since Berhalter still brought a few players over to Qatar the mission is not complete. It should indeed be a development path and the youth efforts have been a start to it.

Oh, we're on the same page with regard to that. Our development and having better players is because of the academy system. MLS' role in that is big simply because they run the academies, but the USMNT talent that produces are just sold to better leagues for export revenue.

It's not like US Soccer snubbed superior players to take lesser ones because MLS didn't take a break. EIGHT TEAMS in Copa had between 1-4 MLS players. We had three and one was the third GK. Paraguay, Venezuela, and Uruguay each had 2 MLS guys on their roster. Peru's got four.

We're not losing to Panama because of MLS.

We're losing to Panama because of the decision to play typical football instead of system football; making us easier to play against. Every game in every sport is a battle of execution across all the plays (Easiest visible in basketball: You score on a higher percentage of possessions than your opponent, you're more likely to win. Things like 3-pointers and rebounds and steals shift the odds of success).

When we had worse technical ability from 1990-2014, we played a system that reduced the opponents' chances. NOW, we're relying on being able to execute more often, not force them into executing worse. And that's why games against "inferior" competition are a lot more 50/50 than before. And games against more talent competitions are less likely to be upsets.