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Conn Smythe Trophy - Players that did a lot to win but never did

Everyone gives up 2.
GAA went from 2 to 3.18 in the playoff teams in the talked about time frame (for teams with 25 games or more), and it was incredibly correlated with the shots against they gave. Not everyone gives up 2, some team gave up more than 50% more than Devils.

Only the Devils Brodeur gave up 2 in that era, everyone else was more than that. To have been a fan of the worst team in that regard (Montreal was giving up 3.2), no, games do not end up 2-2 all the time ;)

I must admit it is refreshing to read someone saying that Brodeur Roy-Belfour level .922 save percentage was due to facing less shots... but the correlation between shots against and save percentage for the top 50 goaltenders in the playoff was ~-0.01 in that era, absolutely nill.

Team Shots against and goals against was a positive 0.5, the link between giving up more shots and giving up more goals (and vice-versa) is not really controversial or small, it is as big as the correlation between scoring goals and winning games in that era.
 
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GAA went from 2 to 3.18 in the playoff teams in the talked about time frame (for teams with 25 games or more), and it was incredibly correlated with the shots against they gave. Not everyone gives up 2, some team gave up more than 50% more than Devils.
To be fair, we're talking about the upper crust...not Montreal making it with 42 year old Andy Moog haha

Those powerhouse teams, the ones capable of producing Smythe finalists, are not giving up goals in this era...

So I guess, more pointedly, everyone relevant is giving up 2. Because if you gave up 3, you lost and if you gave up 1, no one would be debating anything...
 
The year they gave it to Goring, should have been Bossy. Denny got caught in the shuffle those years. Smith deserved his Smythe. Curious what year you would have given to Potvin.

Lifelong Isles fan here
I don't remember Potvin ever having any support for the Conn Smythe. I don't think he received more than a few votes in his career. He certainly had nothing in support compared to Bossy and Trottier. Bossy was probably in the running all four years.
 
The year they gave it to Goring, should have been Bossy. Denny got caught in the shuffle those years. Smith deserved his Smythe. Curious what year you would have given to Potvin.

Lifelong Isles fan here

I would have had him ahead of the winners in 81 and 83 especially 81. Goring was a great story, but imo there was no way he was more valuable than Potvin. That said, Bossy had a great case those two years as well and only won in 82. He basically had 3 more or less identical playoff runs.
 
This thread has Denis Potvin's name all over it. Has to be the best playoff performer of all-time NOT to win a Conn Smythe (since it was implemented in 1965). I think if we ever did a poll and asked who is the most important Islander on their dynasty that Potvin is the winner.

Fedorov also comes to mind, Kucherov as well.

Forsberg never won the Conn Smythe either. And I don't think he deserved it either time as both Sakic and Roy were better than him in both 1996 and 2001 (he was injured during much of 2001). But it is 1999 and 2002 where he led the playoffs in points without making the Cup final.

Not sure if Doug Gilmour applies here. There was just one Cup for him in 1989 and as good as he was MacInnis was clearly the Conn Smythe winner. There are three other years where he dominated through three rounds but didn't get to the final. Almost never had a bad postseason.
 
I'll throw out Chelios as well. He was considered the favourite in 1989 until he had a terrible game 6 in the finals and they lost.

He's the Smythe favourite going into the 1992 Finals. But takes a lot of penalties then and gets worked by Lemieux.

Gets tons of love in 1999 for shutting down Kariya and Selanne.

Gets lots of love in 2002 for shutting down Forsberg.
 
I'm one of those weird Sabres fans who sort of discounts Hasek. I mean, he was incredible, but Buffalo built up an actual wall around him for any situations where we weren't trying to score that year.

That Sabres squad was filled with crease clearers (Smehlick, Warrener, and McKee)

And also just crossing the center-ice guys. Peca and Zhitnkik were openly looking to murder a person who threw a wayward pass.

It wasn't like he was some longshot going against the best, Buffalo had designed the team around him at that point.

I don't think people are interested. Buffalo had a defensive team built to Hasek's strengths by the late 90s, and in 1999 had the best offence in the playoffs through three rounds. Obviously he was still the most important player on that team and was excellent, but people talk as if he was carrying a junior team to the finals. Hasek was also excellent in 2002 but a lot of Red Wings had Conn Smythe type playoffs that year. I will admit that Forsberg was the best player in the 2002 playoffs.

No, it’s valuable to have insight from someone who watched the Sabres at the time. It’s easy to see a goalie with a near .940 S% and a roster whose next best player was probably a Selke Peca to assume it was a one man show.

No one “singlehandedly” carries any team to any title. As much as I love Hasek - my favorite all-time player - I know he didn’t carry a garbage team to the precipice of a Cup. I do think he raised their upside considerably; with an average goalie that roster may not make the playoffs and certainly doesn’t get to SCF Game 6 OT.

That’s usually what people mean when they talk about a player doing something “singlehandedly” - the team is built around that one guy and goes as far as he can take them. However, they have the pieces in place to do what he can’t, who are often not big names.

Facing less shots, but quality chances tend not to be as affected. Factor in NJ being an under-counter of shots, and Brodeur was at a disadvantage save pct. wise. Everyone gives up 2. Doesn't matter if you face 20 additional shots from far out or not...

GAA went from 2 to 3.18 in the playoff teams in the talked about time frame (for teams with 25 games or more), and it was incredibly correlated with the shots against they gave. Not everyone gives up 2, some team gave up more than 50% more than Devils.

Only the Devils Brodeur gave up 2 in that era, everyone else was more than that. To have been a fan of the worst team in that regard (Montreal was giving up 3.2), no, games do not end up 2-2 all the time ;)

I must admit it is refreshing to read someone saying that Brodeur Roy-Belfour level .922 save percentage was due to facing less shots... but the correlation between shots against and save percentage for the top 50 goaltenders in the playoff was ~-0.01 in that era, absolutely nill.

Team Shots against and goals against was a positive 0.5, the link between giving up more shots and giving up more goals (and vice-versa) is not really controversial or small, it is as big as the correlation between scoring goals and winning games in that era.

So, more shots leads to more goals according to MadLuke, which makes sense. Every SOG has *some* chance of going in even it’s from distance, especially when you factor in screens and deflections which account for so many goals.

I get that shots and scoring chances are not 1:1, but the whole “20 shots from far out” thing is a bit ridiculous.
 
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No, it’s valuable to have insight from someone who watched the Sabres at the time. It’s easy to see a goalie with a near .940 S% and a roster whose next best player was probably a Selke Peca to assume it was a one man show.

No one “singlehandedly” carries any team to any title. As much as I love Hasek - my favorite all-time player - I know he didn’t carry a garbage team to the precipice of a Cup. I do think he raised their upside considerably; with an average goalie that roster may not make the playoffs and certainly doesn’t get to SCF Game 6 OT.

That’s usually what people mean when they talk about a player doing something “singlehandedly” - the team is built around that one guy and goes as far as he can take them. However, they have the pieces in place to do what he can’t, who are often not big names.
The thing was, Buffalo had a very mediocre roster because it lacked offensive talent. It had plenty of good defensive forwards and defensive defencemen, and as noted in the first post you quoted they were particularly good at clearing the crease, which is what Hasek really wanted. Hasek more than most goaltenders was concerned about being screened. Obviously he knew what worked because when Buffalo gave it to him the results were excellent. This is completely tangential, but it's also part of the reason I think that Hasek's peak happened before he got any Hart trophies.

In 1999 Buffalo made the finals, and people look at the mediocre at best roster and assume it must have been an epic carry job. After all, those guys mostly stink and Hasek is very likely the best goaltender ever. It's not really the case though, which does not mean that Hasek was less than excellent. The problem with Buffalo's team was that they were inept offensively, but for a few weeks in spring 1999 that was not the case, and it has nothing to do with Hasek. Buffalo's offence had the highest goals per game of any team in the 1999 playoffs through three rounds. It was also not really case of one or two big games skewing the results either, as Buffalo was the only offence that scored at least two regular time goals in every game through three rounds, which in the dead puck era meant that they gave their goaltender a chance every single game. I once looked at goal support for goaltenders who made the finals and Hasek did well by that measure over a large span, don't have the data on hand right now. No one is going to call the 1999 Sabres the 1985 Oilers even when on a hot streak, but the offence was on a hot streak and it can't really be ignored when looking at how the team made the finals. Having Hasek always helps, but he is not the only goaltender that could have taken a solid defensive team with the best offensive results in the league (through three rounds) to the finals.

That said - I would also be fine with Hasek getting the Conn Smythe in 1999. Voters are too fixated on giving it to a player from the winning (and usually better) team.
 
I think if we ever did a poll and asked who is the most important Islander on their dynasty that Potvin is the winner.
Yes, definitely in this group. And probably among people who are too young to have seen the 1980s.

But, for people who saw the dynasty years, support would be more spread out among Potvin, Bossy, and Trottier.

As already mentioned, Bossy and Trottier definitely received a lot more Conn Smythe support than Potvin did.
 
Potvin, Belfour, & Kucherov (along with Point) are who stand out to me in the four round era (1980-present).

For the Isles 4 straight cup wins, 1982 was the only one where Potvin wasn't a top 2 Islander IMO. In 1980, he was 2nd to Trottier. Thought he probably wins it if it were Finals MVP instead, as he had 5 goals (9 points) in 6 games in the finals, and spearheaded their deadly powerplay. The Flyers outscored the Isles at even strength in the finals, but the Isles dominant PP is what won it for them. In this threat, I outlined how Goring winning the 1981 CS was the worst 4 round CS selection ever because both Potvin and Bossy deserved it more. As for those two, it's basically 50/50 for me, but would lean towards Potvin. Potvin basically got robbed of the Norris and CS in 1981. The next year Bossy was the clear pick. In 1983, Potvin was the best Isles skater, scoring a PPG while playing shutdown defense on Gretzky in the final. But I think game 1 of the SCF is what won Billy Smith the award. He stole that game and shutout the Oilers, who had been averaging over 7 goals a game heading into the finals and their only loss in the playoffs was when they were already up 3-0 on the series against the Flames. It seems like that shutout set the tone for the whole series and the Oilers were never able to recover, only scoring 6 goals all series and getting swept. It's another 50/50 between Smith and Potvin, with Smith being better in the finals but Potvin appearing better through all 4 rounds.

1999 is another 50/50 choice for me between Belfour and Nieuwendyk. I think JN won it in the end because he led the playoffs in goals, tied 1996 Sakic with a then record 6 GWG in the playoffs (including 2 OT goals), and led the Stars in scoring in the WCF against the Avs, their toughest series. Him also getting injured the first game of the previous postseason and the Stars offense drying up for a result also made for a great story with his great 1999 playoffs. But Belfour was equally deserving, as others have mentioned with him having goalie battles with Fuhr (albeit an aging one), Roy, and Hasek. The best case for Belfour was how he performed in the final 2 games in each series. He was 8-0 and 96.3 SV %. He gave up 9 goals, and for his GAA in those 8 games, it was below 0.9 because those 8 games had a total of 134:46 of overtime, so that's the equivalent of 2 more games and another 14:46 of extra time (total of 10 games and 14:46 of time). When it came time to close out series (and survive against the Avs in the WCF), he was a flat out dominant brick wall. The following season, the Stars offense really fell off, but Belfour was even better in the playoffs, and flat out stole the 2000 WCF rematch against the Roy and the Avs. They later got outplayed against the Devils, but Belfour kept them in that series before they lost in 6. Had the Stars managed to repeat in 2000, Belfour would've been a really easy CS choice.

For the Lightning in 2020 & 2021, people think about Kucherov not getting a CS, but Point, the leading goalscorer of both postseasons, gets forgotten. Point had the best finals in 2020 and was my 2nd choice, but Hedman was too dominant in rounds 2-3 not to get it, in addition to having 10 goals that postseason as a defenseman. Kucherov was 3rd, as he led the playoffs in scoring. In 2021, Point was my leader going into the SCF, and Kuch 2nd. But Point being held without a goal that series took him out of contention. Kuch was a PPG, and I was leaning towards him when we won it, despite feeling 50/50 between him and Vasilevskiy. But I think Vasy, who was equally deserving, got it in the end because having a shutout in all 4 series clinching games stood out more than any moments Kuch had. Also, the 2021 team wasn't as dominant as the 2020 team and did rely on Vasy more through some stretches. As I said, either Vasy or Kuch would've been fine. And if Kuch's press conference afterwards was any indication, he had zero problem with Vasy winning it.

As an aside, the player with the biggest paradox of a postseason career is Forsberg. 3rd behind Sakic and Roy in 1996 and missed the last 2 rounds in 2001. But in 1999 and 2002, he still led the playoffs in scoring despite the Avs losing in the WCF. His 2002 postseason was the best case a player who lost in the CF has for winning the CS.
 
Potvin, Belfour, & Kucherov (along with Point) are who stand out to me in the four round era (1980-present).

For the Isles 4 straight cup wins, 1982 was the only one where Potvin wasn't a top 2 Islander IMO. In 1980, he was 2nd to Trottier. Thought he probably wins it if it were Finals MVP instead, as he had 5 goals (9 points) in 6 games in the finals, and spearheaded their deadly powerplay. The Flyers outscored the Isles at even strength in the finals, but the Isles dominant PP is what won it for them. In this threat, I outlined how Goring winning the 1981 CS was the worst 4 round CS selection ever because both Potvin and Bossy deserved it more. As for those two, it's basically 50/50 for me, but would lean towards Potvin. Potvin basically got robbed of the Norris and CS in 1981. The next year Bossy was the clear pick. In 1983, Potvin was the best Isles skater, scoring a PPG while playing shutdown defense on Gretzky in the final. But I think game 1 of the SCF is what won Billy Smith the award. He stole that game and shutout the Oilers, who had been averaging over 7 goals a game heading into the finals and their only loss in the playoffs was when they were already up 3-0 on the series against the Flames. It seems like that shutout set the tone for the whole series and the Oilers were never able to recover, only scoring 6 goals all series and getting swept. It's another 50/50 between Smith and Potvin, with Smith being better in the finals but Potvin appearing better through all 4 rounds.

1999 is another 50/50 choice for me between Belfour and Nieuwendyk. I think JN won it in the end because he led the playoffs in goals, tied 1996 Sakic with a then record 6 GWG in the playoffs (including 2 OT goals), and led the Stars in scoring in the WCF against the Avs, their toughest series. Him also getting injured the first game of the previous postseason and the Stars offense drying up for a result also made for a great story with his great 1999 playoffs. But Belfour was equally deserving, as others have mentioned with him having goalie battles with Fuhr (albeit an aging one), Roy, and Hasek. The best case for Belfour was how he performed in the final 2 games in each series. He was 8-0 and 96.3 SV %. He gave up 9 goals, and for his GAA in those 8 games, it was below 0.9 because those 8 games had a total of 134:46 of overtime, so that's the equivalent of 2 more games and another 14:46 of extra time (total of 10 games and 14:46 of time). When it came time to close out series (and survive against the Avs in the WCF), he was a flat out dominant brick wall. The following season, the Stars offense really fell off, but Belfour was even better in the playoffs, and flat out stole the 2000 WCF rematch against the Roy and the Avs. They later got outplayed against the Devils, but Belfour kept them in that series before they lost in 6. Had the Stars managed to repeat in 2000, Belfour would've been a really easy CS choice.

For the Lightning in 2020 & 2021, people think about Kucherov not getting a CS, but Point, the leading goalscorer of both postseasons, gets forgotten. Point had the best finals in 2020 and was my 2nd choice, but Hedman was too dominant in rounds 2-3 not to get it, in addition to having 10 goals that postseason as a defenseman. Kucherov was 3rd, as he led the playoffs in scoring. In 2021, Point was my leader going into the SCF, and Kuch 2nd. But Point being held without a goal that series took him out of contention. Kuch was a PPG, and I was leaning towards him when we won it, despite feeling 50/50 between him and Vasilevskiy. But I think Vasy, who was equally deserving, got it in the end because having a shutout in all 4 series clinching games stood out more than any moments Kuch had. Also, the 2021 team wasn't as dominant as the 2020 team and did rely on Vasy more through some stretches. As I said, either Vasy or Kuch would've been fine. And if Kuch's press conference afterwards was any indication, he had zero problem with Vasy winning it.

As an aside, the player with the biggest paradox of a postseason career is Forsberg. 3rd behind Sakic and Roy in 1996 and missed the last 2 rounds in 2001. But in 1999 and 2002, he still led the playoffs in scoring despite the Avs losing in the WCF. His 2002 postseason was the best case a player who lost in the CF has for winning the CS.
The Point and Kucherov duo has some similarities to the dynamic between Kurri and Gretzky. In the Oilers 5 trips to the finals in the Gretzky era, Gretzky never led the Oilers in goal-scoring (Messier, Kurri, Kurri, Kurri, Kurri). Kurri brought a lot to the table, but was quite dependent on Gretzky to score goals. Likewise, I always joke that Point has never scored a goal that wasn't assisted by Kucherov. Little exaggeration, but Point wouldn't score nearly as much without Kucherov, who is, like Gretzky, the transcendent star.
 
I get that shots and scoring chances are not 1:1, but the whole “20 shots from far out” thing is a bit ridiculous.
Perhaps. The data that I have seen is that you generally get 9 to 11 legit scoring chances a game. Shots vary considerably more. Probably needs more evaluation.

But the emphasis on shot prevention vs line denial entirely changes the view on shots against.
 
Save percentage doesn't tell us the story of what happened or how well the goalie played.

What's the absolute easiest way for a team to have a high save percentage? It's not by having a goalie play really well; rather, it's by having the goalie doing very little...in other words, by having the team give up very few scoring chances.

New Jersey's very high save percentage in the '95 playoffs was primarily a result of the defensive (and offensive) domination of the team, led by Lemaire's coaching, and implented almost perfectly by the players (especially the forwards), which resulted in very few quality scoring chances against the Devils.

A dearth of scoring chances against, is the number one reason why the '95 Devils won the Cup.

A dearth of scoring chances against, almost always produces a high save percentage, and it's the main reason for it. It's the single greatest reason why teams strive to play good team defense.

Save percentage doesn't do a very good job of informing us about a goaltender's play.

Yes, save percentage doesn’t tell the full story, especially with a center-ice trapping, defensive, shot suppressing Jacques Lemaire team.

But Brodeur was not a potted plant—he was still facing HQ scoring chances, and he was still delivering. The amount of confidence he generated for his team that postseason can’t be overlooked.

The Game 4 OT swing game of the Devils-Penguins series was a good example: Brodeur robbed Jagr and Robitaille at least twice with 10-bell saves, and though the shots total ended up being 51-33 Devils, the Penguins coach later said that the shots were no indication of how the game went, i.e. the scoring chances were even, and that Brodeur was a difference-maker in the series.

Brodeur had a similarly-impressive performance in the 1-0 Game 4 OT swing game in the Bruins series. 37 saves, including some great ones against Cam Neely and Brent Hughes. A lot of pressure in a wide-open game, which he was able to weather.

FWIW, I don’t think Brodeur should’ve won the Conn Smythe in ‘95. I also don’t mind him not winning it in ‘00 or ‘03. But he was a very deserving candidate.
 
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Yes, save percentage doesn’t tell the full story, especially with a center-ice trapping, defensive, shot suppressing Jacques Lemaire team.

But Brodeur was not a potted plant—he was still facing HQ scoring chances, and he was still delivering. The amount of confidence he generated for his team that postseason can’t be overlooked.

The Game 4 OT swing game of the Devils-Penguins series was a good example: Brodeur robbed Jagr and Robitaille at least twice with 10-bell saves, and though the shots total ended up being 51-33 Devils, the Penguins coach later said that the shots were no indication of how the game went, i.e. the scoring chances were even, and that Brodeur was a difference-maker in the series.

Brodeur had a similarly-impressive performance in the 1-0 Game 4 OT swing game in the Bruins series. 37 saves, including some great ones against Cam Neely and Brent Hughes. A lot of pressure in a wide-open game, which he was able to weather.

FWIW, I don’t think Brodeur should’ve won the Conn Smythe in ‘95. I also don’t mind him not winning it in ‘00 or ‘03. But he was a very deserving candidate.
He wasn't a deserving candidate in '95.

There certainly were times during those playoffs where the Devils needed Brodeur to make some big saves. Afterall, it's not possible for a team to play over 20 games without the goalie being a key player some of the time.

But what made the '95 Devils a very special teams is their dominance in scoring chances, and their minimization of scoring chances against through most of the playoffs. They often outshot and outchanced their opponents by very big margins.

It's really not possible for the goaltender to be the MVP of such a team.The bulk of the value of the team is what the skaters are doing.
 
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But what made the '95 Devils a very special teams is their dominance in scoring chances, and their minimization of scoring chances against through most of the playoffs. They often outshot and outchanced their opponents by very big margins.

I agree, the Devil's trap was fresh, opponents had no idea how to deal with that.
 
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I'll throw out Chelios as well. He was considered the favourite in 1989 until he had a terrible game 6 in the finals and they lost.

He's the Smythe favourite going into the 1992 Finals. But takes a lot of penalties then and gets worked by Lemieux.

Gets tons of love in 1999 for shutting down Kariya and Selanne.

Gets lots of love in 2002 for shutting down Forsberg.
Chelios was of course great, but I do not recall him being "the favorite" in 1989 before game 6. His name may have been up there with one or two other Canadiens, but they never won a game after game three, so it seems unlikely that he was favored over MacInnis, Gilmour, etc.

The other thing about Chelios is, while mostly awesome when on the ice, he took way too many penalties. The 1st-overall Blackhawks choked in round one vs. Minny in 1991, for example, because Chelios and co. kept taking penalty after penalty after penalty.... and kept paying for it... but never stopped. (Chelios = 46 penalty minutes in six games.)
 
I'll throw out Chelios as well. He was considered the favourite in 1989 until he had a terrible game 6 in the finals and they lost.

He's the Smythe favourite going into the 1992 Finals. But takes a lot of penalties then and gets worked by Lemieux.

Gets tons of love in 1999 for shutting down Kariya and Selanne.

Gets lots of love in 2002 for shutting down Forsberg.

100 on chelios. an absolute monster, to borrow pierre maguire’s terminology.

in 2002, he also derailed bertuzzi when bertuzzi was the best player in the league (26 goals, 60 pts in the 40 games leading up to that playoff series, 7 ahead of his linemate naslund at #2, 9 ahead of kovalev at #3, 11 ahead of art ross iginla at #4; 1 plus behind the league leaders, runaway pts/game leader, unstoppable physical force.) with the red hot canucks up 2-0 in the series, chelios absorbed an absolutely savage hit by bertuzzi.



and he gets up. after that pt, he held bertuzzi, who had 2 goals and 2 assists over two and a half games, to one single assist. here’s a recap of that game, which of course is better known for lidstrom’s beach ball goal on cloutier.

highlights:

"It was the hit that rattled through an entire arena, so resounding and scary that the collision nearly silenced more than 18,000 raucous fans.​
"When Vancouver winger Todd Bertuzzi launched his 245-plus pounds into aging Detroit defenceman Chris Chelios along the boards Sunday, the result was almost more incredible than the impact.​
"Chelios, grizzled and battle hardened, pushed himself back on his skates, minus his helmet, and immediately went to the front of the net, trying to push the bullish Bertuzzi away from the crease despite giving away at least 60 pounds.​
…​
"Dominik Hasek, the Red Wings netminder, soon was penalized for delay of game after pushing the goal post off the moorings. Detroit was two men short and Chelios was left gasping for air.​
"Did he leave the ice? Not a chance, because Chelios is a true hockey warrior, just like teammate Steve Yzerman, the Detroit captain who leads by example, despite a wonky knee that needs further surgery.​
"'If I don't [play like that] I'm going to be looking for a job,' Chelios said late after a long stint in the Detroit training room. 'That's part of my game, it's kind of my role, always has been, especially when you're matched up against the other team's top line.'​
…​
"Yzerman set the offensive tone with his relentless pace despite the gimpy leg. Hasek finally made some saves and Nicklas Lidstrom provided the winning shot with a goal from centre ice. But, it was the presence of Chelios in the defensive zone -- elbows, stick and tenacity proving a pain in the side of the Canucks -- that gave the Wings the fortitude to get back into the series when it looked darkest.​
"The score was tied 1-1 when Bertuzzi unloaded on Chelios, who went on to finish the game with 32 shifts covering 28 minutes 2 seconds. Asked about the Bertuzzi hit, which was from the side and not the back -- Chelios replied, with a wry smile: 'Tons of fun. Let him know so he'll come and hit me harder.’"​

so he matched up against the top line of the number one team of that season’s second half (0.725 win%), a legendarily top heavy one line team, and chelios created the blueprint to neutralizing bertuzzi, which the next year was a playbook borrowed by barrett jackman (who probably would have succeeded if st louis wasn’t decimated by the flu), then willie mitchell (who savagely finished the job).

––––––––​

but i actually didn’t mean to type all that about the vancouver series. what i really wanted to respond to was chelios in the '92 finals. it really doesn’t look like mario lit him up at all. some of that is outlined in this thread.

the cliffs notes:

- in the four game sweep, chelios +2, mario even

- yes, mario had 5 goals, 7 pts in those games, but chelios was tied for third with kevin stevens with 5 (tocchet led the series with 8)

- that series was three one-goal games, and a 3-1 loss; with just a normal 1D in chelios’ place it stands to reason that that series is a romp

- chelios only took three penalties in that series: two minors and a 5 and a game in the dying seconds of game three (15 out of his 19 PIMs in the series)

- and yes there is a story about those 15 minutes: as chelios explains after the game, they’re down 1-0 with the goalie pulled, there’s thirty seconds left, and he starts punching larry murphy to get a stoppage in play so pittsburgh can't score an empty netter to put the game away (tocchet is carrying the puck and about to outlet it to mario for the EN breakaway)


but i wanted to take a closer look so i just watched a good chunk of that series on youtube, including every goal of the series. here’s the game-by-game:

game one (unrelated: TIL that an 11 year old christina aguilera sang the anthem to open the series), chelios played 37 minutes (the announcers reported this number in game two). chelios had a goal and two assists, putting chicago up 4-1 midway through the second. then belfour gives this game away on some weak goals. mario scores two goals, chelios is on the ice for both. first one, he is covering mario in the corner and mario banks it in off belfour. it was the second goal in a minute on belfour and a gut punch that turned the game. mario’s second goal was on the PP, wide open on kravchuk’s side to put back a giant larry murphy rebound that belfour coughs up. chelios was covering his man on the other side.

so mario has two goals, finishes even. chelios has 3 pts, finishes +2, on the ice for 2 out of 5 pittsburgh goals (both by mario) and all 4 chicago goals.

game two, chelios is only on the ice for one goal, a PP marker by mario that he probably could have played him stronger on. after personally thwarting two zone entries by the incredibly high-powered pittsburgh PP, tocchet gains the line and dumps it into the corner, where stevens brutalizes steve smith, tocchet picks up the loose puck and gets it to mario in the slot. chelios is late because he was below the goal line expecting smith to cycle the puck back to him.

2 goals by mario, chelios on for 1.

game three, chelios is on the ice for the only goal, which was scored by a line of mceachern centering stevens and tocchet. mario not on the ice.

chelios 1 goal against, holds mario scoreless

game four, and it’s interesting to see that they’re already talking about jagr’s work ethic and obsessiveness in training (“i imagine he’d rather be on the ice than any place else in the world"). jagr scores an early one. a little later, chelios outlets the puck to matteau, who springs dirk graham to tie it. then seconds later, stevens scores on a power move off a mario pass; chelios not on the ice. belfour gets pulled, rookie hasek comes in. it’s amazing how poor belfour was in this series, which affected his reputation for years, and the rest of the game they keep showing him looking emo on the bench while hasek puts on a show despite giving up four goals. seconds later, chelios back on the ice, graham scores again, one-timing it from the side of the net off a gorgeous feed from chelios on the blueline. then mario scores on the PP with chelios in the box (this is probably where the perception that he was undisciplined comes from: a totally unnecessary headshot on larry murphy to negate a chicago PP; the mario goal was after the original pittsburgh penalty expired). then before the first period is up, graham gets the hat trick goal. chelios on the ice but not involved in the play.

anyway, first period tally: mario has 2 pts, chelios not on the ice for either although his penalty led to one of them. chelios has 2 assists, on the ice for all 3 chicago goals.

second period starts with tocchet violently hammering chelios into the end boards, chelios keeps going as if nothing happened. right after chelios' shift ends, pittsburgh immediately scores, tocchet in the slot from mario. the second ends with roenick tying it up, chelios not on the ice.

second period tally: mario 1 pt, chelios not on the ice.

in the third period, pittsburgh goes ahead for good on a larry murphy goal. mario hits chelios in the corner, springing the puck loose, tocchet beats smith for possession and finds murphy pinching in, who beats hasek. then they trade goals, neither mario nor chelios are on the ice. in the dying seconds with hasek pulled, chelios holds the line on a mario attempted clear and finds goulet in the slot, who hits the post with seven seconds left. the puck finds itself on chelios’ stick one more time as the clocks runs out.

game four total: chelios on the ice for 3 chicago goals, assisted on 2, 1 goal against (not a mario pt but mario is involved), 1 penalty leading to a mario goal, 3 total mario pts that chelios was not on the ice for

so final tally: chelios is on the ice for 3 of mario’s 7 pts. but man, he played more than half of every game and finished +2 in a sweep (holding that pittsburgh PP to 4 goals and only being on the ice for 2 of them is also noteworthy). to be fair, chelios also indirectly caused one on a penalty, and mario didn’t factor in the murphy go ahead goal but did cause the chelios turnover that led to pittsburgh possession. still, even if we count that as 5 of 8, in no way shape or form was chelios lit up by mario in this series. with 5 pts of his own, he battled peak mario to a standstill.

nor was he undisciplined. he only took two minors in the entire series while holding mario to just 1.25 goals a game — a number that, as i pointed out, he personally equaled. in that series, pittsburgh scored 15 goals and chelios was on the ice for 4 of them. i repeat, 4 out of 15. again, he played at least half the game (on a mike keenan-coached team whose bottom three dmen were rookie marchment, second year frantisek kucera, and journeyman enforcer rod buskas).

it’s fitting the puck was on his stick as time ran out. he was superhuman through that entire playoffs, but no less so in the finals. chicago outscored pittsburgh 7-4 with him on the ice (7-5 if you want to count the goal they scored with him in the box), and was outscored 11-3 with him not on the ice (10-3 if count that PP goal against him). he had a pt on literally half of his team’s goals and casually broke up so many pittsburgh rushes in the neutral zone like clockwork while being the main offensive catalyst.
 
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It was so different than the mid and late 80s Canadiens trap? I'd be interested to learn how...
My own mental heuristic on this is that the Devils' second and third layers of pressure in the neutral zone were uncommonly aggressive compared to other teams who were organized a similar way.

Maybe this is too neat a bow to tie around it, but to me, the 80s Habs look like a well oiled machine when defending the transition game, Gainey's North Stars look like the smothering extreme endpoint of what the short shift game could do, and Lemaire's Devils look like both of those things at once.

I'd agree that calling it an entirely new thing is too much. It's also significant that the 1995 Devils started cold, and only started rolling over teams (with a new first line centre!) midway through an already shortened season. That more than anything else is a good reason to suggest they snuck up on some teams, to a degree.
 
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He wasn't a deserving candidate in '95.

There certainly were times during those playoffs where the Devils needed Brodeur to make some big saves. Afterall, it's not possible for a team to play over 20 games without the goalie being a key player some of the time.

But what made the '95 Devils a very special teams is their dominance in scoring chances, and their minimization of scoring chances against through most of the playoffs. They often outshot and outchanced their opponents by very big margins.

It's really not possible for the goaltender to be the MVP of such a team.The bulk of the value of the team is what the skaters are doing.

Agree to disagree, I suppose (the part about the goaltender not possibly shining as a Smythe candidate on such a team). Though I think we can all agree that Brodeur in ‘95 was no Hasek in ‘99!

Interesting to see that Brodeur averaged 22-23 shots against over 60 mins. in ‘95, same as in 2000, which of course was a very different team
 
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1. Hasek in Buffalo.

Most notably in the Stanley Cup Final Game 6 OT "loss" by bad ref call.

But half a decade earlier he was weaving playoff magic. Unbelievable:

 
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My own mental heuristic on this is that the Devils' second and third layers of pressure in the neutral zone were uncommonly aggressive compared to other teams who were organized a similar way.

Maybe this is too neat a bow to tie around it, but to me, the 80s Habs look like a well oiled machine when defending the transition game, Gainey's North Stars look like the smothering extreme endpoint of what the short shift game could do, and Lemaire's Devils look like both of those things at once.

I'd agree that calling it an entirely new thing is too much. It's also significant that the 1995 Devils started cold, and only started rolling over teams (with a new first line centre!) midway through an already shortened season. That more than anything else is a good reason to suggest they snuck up on some teams, to a degree.
I agree with that, New Jersey ended up playing the next step in the evolution of the Canadiens/Bowman scheme that was more aggressive. Obviously Lemaire and Gainey played for Bowman and were part of the Montreal organization, and even Keenan, who wanted to emulate Bowman, followed Bowman through the Peterborough Petes and then was hired by Bowman for his first professional coaching job in the NHL. It's a tactical evolution, I'd guess, of Montreal's system plus when Bowman took what he liked from the left wing lock system, then with observations from what Lemaire saw around the NHL (Keenan) and maybe his time in Europe.

I do wonder if there is a strain of Plante's puckhandling in the New Jersey system with Brodeur. It wasn't really there in Montreal with Dryden or Roy, but Bowman would be very familiar with Plante's impact as a puck handler and I figure that Lemaire would be as well.
 

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