Conn Smythe Tournament (Post 2000's) Round 1: 2003 Giguere vs 2011 Thomas

[Hockeyholic]

No answer is the wrong one here.

I'm going to choose Thomas because he was better in the SCF. Ultimately leading his team to victory.

Yes, he had a better team in front of him. But I wouldn't say his D was way more superior than Ducks D.

 

[njdevils1982]

its amazing what a wall of equipment can accomplish

 

[bambamcam4ever]

its amazing what a wall of equipment can accomplish

Corrected: it's amazing what illegal equipment can accomplish (in Thomas's case)

 

[Regal]

I'm going with Thomas, yes with some bias.

I don't recall Gigure's run as well as I do Thomas' but that Bruins defense was porous in the playoffs and their lack of foot speed was exposed in every series in '11. Their size was great when cleaning up rebounds and protecting the net but the odd man chances against and the number of times Thomas had to bail them out when the other team was transitioning into the zone with the puck was ridiculous. Bruins get bounced out in the 1st round against Montreal if it wasn't for Thomas' heroics.

It’s kind of funny because I think some people criticize Thomas’ run because he had some games with a high number of goals against before the finals and they point to those and the defense as reasons why it wasn’t as good as the finals performance that most people remember, but in some ways I think people also only remember the defense from the finals. The Bruins were a bad matchup for the Canucks especially with their injuries and they didn’t have the team that could exploit the Bruins in transition. Their size and reach kept the Canucks on the perimeter and away from rebounds. So the defense was a huge part of limiting the chances against Thomas in the finals (not that he wasn’t still great when he needed to be), and I think a lot of people project that over the rest of the playoffs, but it wasn’t really the case.

 

[Johnny Tomala]

Giguere.

 

[Hockey Outsider]

It's probably the best example of a goaltender (and his giant gear) carrying his team from the last several decades against an erratic goaltender carried by his team.

Here are the three stars selections for the 2003 Ducks:

Player	Season	1st	2nd	3rd	TOTAL
Jean-Sebastien Giguere	2003	9	3		33
Paul Kariya	2003	1	2		7
Steve Rucchin	2003	1	1	1	6
Petr Sykora	2003		1	3	5
Mike Leclerc	2003		2	1	5
Steve Thomas	2003	1	1		5
Adam Oates	2003	1		1	4
Ruslan Salei	2003	1			3
Sandis Ozolinsh	2003	1			3
Stanislav Chistov	2003		1		2
Keith Carney	2003		1		2
Rob Niedermayer	2003			1	1
Samuel Pahlsson	2003			1	1
Kurt Sauer	2003			1	1
Jason Krog	2003			1	1

It's unfathomable. This is as close as any one player has ever come to singlehandedly dragging his team to the Stanley Cup finals.

 

[BigBadBruins7708]

Thomas went against better offenses than Giguere.

Thomas played the 24th, 3rd, 7th, 1st offenses. Giguere played the 1st, 6th, 24th, 14th.

Giguere's run gets overrated and inflated by the Minnesota series. Minnesota was anemic offensively. Yes holding them to 1 goal is a great accomplishment but it's not better than holding the #1 offenses to 1.14 GPG and a .967 Finals sv%

Here are the three stars selections for the 2003 Ducks:

[TABLE=collapse]
[TR]
[TD]Player[/TD]
[TD]Season[/TD]
[TD]1st[/TD]
[TD]2nd[/TD]
[TD]3rd[/TD]
[TD]TOTAL[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Jean-Sebastien Giguere[/TD]
[TD]2003[/TD]
[TD]9[/TD]
[TD]3[/TD]
[TD][/TD]

[TD]33[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Paul Kariya[/TD]
[TD]2003[/TD]
[TD]1[/TD]
[TD]2[/TD]
[TD][/TD]

[TD]7[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Steve Rucchin[/TD]
[TD]2003[/TD]
[TD]1[/TD]
[TD]1[/TD]
[TD]1[/TD]
[TD]6[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Petr Sykora[/TD]
[TD]2003[/TD]
[TD][/TD]

[TD]1[/TD]
[TD]3[/TD]
[TD]5[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Mike Leclerc[/TD]
[TD]2003[/TD]
[TD][/TD]

[TD]2[/TD]
[TD]1[/TD]
[TD]5[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Steve Thomas[/TD]
[TD]2003[/TD]
[TD]1[/TD]
[TD]1[/TD]
[TD][/TD]

[TD]5[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Adam Oates[/TD]
[TD]2003[/TD]
[TD]1[/TD]
[TD][/TD]

[TD]1[/TD]
[TD]4[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Ruslan Salei[/TD]
[TD]2003[/TD]
[TD]1[/TD]
[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]

[TD]3[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Sandis Ozolinsh[/TD]
[TD]2003[/TD]
[TD]1[/TD]
[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]

[TD]3[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Stanislav Chistov[/TD]
[TD]2003[/TD]
[TD][/TD]

[TD]1[/TD]
[TD][/TD]

[TD]2[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Keith Carney[/TD]
[TD]2003[/TD]
[TD][/TD]

[TD]1[/TD]
[TD][/TD]

[TD]2[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Rob Niedermayer[/TD]
[TD]2003[/TD]
[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]

[TD]1[/TD]
[TD]1[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Samuel Pahlsson[/TD]
[TD]2003[/TD]
[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]

[TD]1[/TD]
[TD]1[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Kurt Sauer[/TD]
[TD]2003[/TD]
[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]

[TD]1[/TD]
[TD]1[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Jason Krog[/TD]
[TD]2003[/TD]
[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]

[TD]1[/TD]
[TD]1[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

It's unfathomable. This is as close as any one player has ever come to singlehandedly dragging his team to the Stanley Cup finals.

98 Hasek did more with less

 

[bambamcam4ever]

Thomas went against better offenses than Giguere.

Thomas played the 24th, 3rd, 7th, 1st offenses. Giguere played the 1st, 6th, 24th, 14th.

Giguere's run gets overrated and inflated by the Minnesota series. Minnesota was anemic offensively. Yes holding them to 1 goal is a great accomplishment but it's not better than holding the #1 offenses to 1.14 GPG and a .967 Finals sv%



98 Hasek did more with less

Giguere didn't have the refs on his team's side to help shut down his finals opponent

 

[Hockey Outsider]

Thomas went against better offenses than Giguere.

Thomas played the 24th, 3rd, 7th, 1st offenses. Giguere played the 1st, 6th, 24th, 14th.

Giguere's run gets overrated and inflated by the Minnesota series. Minnesota was anemic offensively. Yes holding them to 1 goal is a great accomplishment but it's not better than holding the #1 offenses to 1.14 GPG and a .967 Finals sv%



98 Hasek did more with less

You mean 1999 right? Giguere still did more, with less.

The 1999 Sabres were the 4th highest scoring team in the playoffs (in terms of goals per game). The 2003 Ducks were 11th.

The 1999 Sabres allowed the 6th most shots against per game in the playoffs. The 2003 Ducks allowed the 2nd most.

The 2003 Ducks faced the #1, #2 and #6 seeds in the west, and then the #2 seed in the east. The 1999 Sabres faced the #2, #4 and #6 teams in the east, and then the #1 seed in the west. It's close, but still a tougher road for Anaheim.

Hasek had a 93.9% save percentage. Giguere had a 94.5% save percentage.

I watched both playoff runs. I don't have any doubt that Giguere's was better. The data backs that up. He posted a higher save percentage, on a weaker team, and took his team (slightly) farther. Aside from name recognition, there's no argument for Hasek here.

 

[Regal]

Thomas went against better offenses than Giguere.

Thomas played the 24th, 3rd, 7th, 1st offenses. Giguere played the 1st, 6th, 24th, 14th.

Giguere's run gets overrated and inflated by the Minnesota series. Minnesota was anemic offensively. Yes holding them to 1 goal is a great accomplishment but it's not better than holding the #1 offenses to 1.14 GPG and a .967 Finals sv%



98 Hasek did more with less

To be fair, the Canucks didn’t play like close to the number 1 offense that series

 

[JackSlater]

Thomas went against better offenses than Giguere.

Thomas played the 24th, 3rd, 7th, 1st offenses. Giguere played the 1st, 6th, 24th, 14th.

Giguere's run gets overrated and inflated by the Minnesota series. Minnesota was anemic offensively. Yes holding them to 1 goal is a great accomplishment but it's not better than holding the #1 offenses to 1.14 GPG and a .967 Finals sv%



98 Hasek did more with less

Giguere allowed 20 goals in the first two series against powerhouse teams. Thomas allowed 20 goals in 4 games against Tampa Bay. They aren't close.

I'll ignore the first part because it's obvious that you are impacted by which goaltender played for which team, but there is no excuse for the last sentence. Hasek had way more support than Giguere did. Both played for defensive but largely untalented teams, but one had great goal support (Hasek) while the other (Giguere) did not.

 

[tabness]

Giguere allowed 20 goals in the first two series against powerhouse teams. Thomas allowed 20 goals in 4 games against Tampa Bay. They aren't close.

I'll ignore the first part because it's obvious that you are impacted by which goaltender played for which team, but there is no excuse for the last sentence. Hasek had way more support than Giguere did. Both played for defensive but largely untalented teams, but one had great goal support (Hasek) while the other (Giguere) did not.

Thomas allowed 18 goals bud, empty net goals don't count

he also didn't lose his net, Marty Gerber got a shot against Dallas

To be fair, the Canucks didn’t play like close to the number 1 offense that series

For sure, Boston matched up incredibly against Vancouver, however Detroit's play in 2003 against Anaheim was far from representative of a number one offense either

 

[JackSlater]

Thomas allowed 18 goals bud, empty net goals don't count

My mistake, Thomas allowed 18 goals in just four games to 2011 Tampa vs Giguere allowing 19 goals (whoops) vs 2003 Detroit and Dallas and 20 overall on the way to the finals.

 

[tabness]

My mistake, Thomas allowed 18 goals in just four games to 2011 Tampa vs Giguere allowing 19 goals (whoops) vs 2003 Detroit and Dallas and 20 overall on the way to the finals.

The statline that sticks out the most though is Giggy giving 18 goals in the finals. I guess Babcock trusted him more than he did in Dallas not to yank him during the pivotal game 5 with the series tied when he let in 6 though, so that's a plus I guess.

 

[JackSlater]

The statline that sticks out the most though is Giggy giving 18 goals in the finals. I guess Babcock trusted him more than he did in Dallas not to yank him during the pivotal game 5 with the series tied when he let in 6 though, so that's a plus I guess.

Giguere got pulled and prompted Murray to publicly demand accountability due to Dallas crashing the crease since Giguere was Anaheim's only hope, not because Babcock didn't trust him in a game Anaheim wasn't going to win anyway. If I understand your weird second sentence.

Thomas let in far fewer goals than Giguere did in the finals, absolutely, an that is a point in his favour. Switch the two of them and the results are the same, though probably even better for Boston. I don't really care though after Giguere carried his team like no goaltender had in decades while Boston ran around covering for Thomas. This isn't a remotely close comparison, probably the biggest gap this series will have in its first round.

 

[tabness]

Giguere got pulled and prompted Murray to publicly demand accountability due to Dallas crashing the crease since Giguere was Anaheim's only hope, not because Babcock didn't trust him in a game Anaheim wasn't going to win anyway. If I understand your weird second sentence.

Thomas let in far fewer goals than Giguere did in the finals, absolutely, an that is a point in his favour. Switch the two of them and the results are the same, though probably even better for Boston. I don't really care though after Giguere carried his team like no goaltender had in decades while Boston ran around covering for Thomas.

That's an... interesting... rationalization of Giguere getting yanked all the way at the end of the second right after letting in the third Dallas goal (this time on the shorty, Anaheim's trap couldn't be there for Giguere).

Ah well, who needs a team, when you got them pads to carry you to the finals

 

[KevinRedkey]

Thomas went against better offenses than Giguere.

Thomas played the 24th, 3rd, 7th, 1st offenses. Giguere played the 1st, 6th, 24th, 14th.

Giguere's run gets overrated and inflated by the Minnesota series. Minnesota was anemic offensively. Yes holding them to 1 goal is a great accomplishment but it's not better than holding the #1 offenses to 1.14 GPG and a .967 Finals sv%



98 Hasek did more with less

He swept the #1 offense in the league. Anaheim had no business winning that series, and was thougroughly dominated in every game.

His stats vs Minnesota are insane, but his play in round 1 was just as impressive... especially in OT.

 

[JackSlater]

That's an... interesting... rationalization of Giguere getting yanked all the way at the end of the second right after letting in the third Dallas goal (this time on the shorty, Anaheim's trap couldn't be there for Giguere).

Ah well, who needs a team, when you got them pads to carry you to the finals

It's what happened. Giguere wasn't stonewalling Dallas that game but he wasn't getting lit up either, and Murray publicly ranted about the way Dallas was running (in his opinion) Giguere after the game. Anaheim pretty much conceded the game since it wasn't scoring three goals or morein one period.

I don't disagree about the pads. I still have some bitterness about it but that's how things were at the time. Detroit's exits in 2003-2004 (and 2006 really) all represented problems in the NHL as a whole to me.

 

[bambamcam4ever]

Thomas allowed 18 goals bud, empty net goals don't count

he also didn't lose his net, Marty Gerber got a shot against Dallas



For sure, Boston matched up incredibly against Vancouver, however Detroit's play in 2003 against Anaheim was far from representative of a number one offense either

Thomas didn't lose his net?