blundluntman
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- Jul 30, 2016
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Conn Smythe Tournament (1977-00) Round 1: 1990 Ranford vs 1987 Hextall
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JackSlater
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- Apr 27, 2010
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Two weaker ones, I'll go with Ranford because he looked better and he had better results behind a lesser (still quality) defence.
tabness
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- Apr 4, 2014
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Ranford had one of the most meteoric rises in the playoffs and especially the finals and was the "runaway" winner on a team that also had some real strong performances from Messier, Kurri, and Tikkanen. Maybe the zenith of the standup reflex goalie style. One of the strongest goalie performances in this timeframe.
Pre finals it seems the media was all over Messier but Ranford literally won it nearly unanimously by the end
Hextall great run, probably the most entertaining goalie ever, but on a deep Mike Keenan team that was a bit ahead of the league in the short shift game department, so I'm going with Ranford who's just a bit more creamier of the cream of the crop goalie performances.
Pre finals it seems the media was all over Messier but Ranford literally won it nearly unanimously by the end
Hextall great run, probably the most entertaining goalie ever, but on a deep Mike Keenan team that was a bit ahead of the league in the short shift game department, so I'm going with Ranford who's just a bit more creamier of the cream of the crop goalie performances.
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I hate that Hextall won the smythe in 1987.
In general - I dislike the idea of smythes being awarded to a player who doesn't win the cup. I wish they'd change the rules - to make the trophy be "best player on cup winning team". A player who loses the cup doesn't want to go get an individual trophy. Otherwise - give it out during the award ceremony along with hart/lindsay etc. But it's stupid the way it is.
That being said - for most of the smythe winners in losing causes, you kind of get it. McDavid this year? Spectacular. Giguere? Spectacular. But Hextall had no business winning here above Gretzky. Gretzky had 11 points in the finals - points in every single game of the finals - and he definitely deserved the Smythe. Clear best player of the playoffs, and of the finals.
Hextall's final doesn't even look that good. Lower sv% than Fuhr in final, higher GAA than Fuhr too...I just don't get this choice.
I voted Ranford. Not sure he was the best choice for the Smythe that year either, but it's closer.
In general - I dislike the idea of smythes being awarded to a player who doesn't win the cup. I wish they'd change the rules - to make the trophy be "best player on cup winning team". A player who loses the cup doesn't want to go get an individual trophy. Otherwise - give it out during the award ceremony along with hart/lindsay etc. But it's stupid the way it is.
That being said - for most of the smythe winners in losing causes, you kind of get it. McDavid this year? Spectacular. Giguere? Spectacular. But Hextall had no business winning here above Gretzky. Gretzky had 11 points in the finals - points in every single game of the finals - and he definitely deserved the Smythe. Clear best player of the playoffs, and of the finals.
Hextall's final doesn't even look that good. Lower sv% than Fuhr in final, higher GAA than Fuhr too...I just don't get this choice.
I voted Ranford. Not sure he was the best choice for the Smythe that year either, but it's closer.
Hockey Outsider
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I agree. Hextall wasn't a great choice for the Smythe. I think it was due to voter fatigue. This was Gretzky's 8th(!) consecutive season winning the Hart trophy. I get the sense that they were looking for a reason to give the playoff MVP to someone else (like they did in 1984 - but at least that one had better justification).
Forget about Gretzky, I'm not even sure that Hextall was better than two of his teammates - Mark Howe and Brian Propp. (Even if he was better - surely it wasn't by a huge margin).
I'm not a big fan of Ranford's Smythe either. I would have voted for Messier.
Staniowski
Registered User
Perhaps a better question: did Messier deserve to win both the '87 and '90 Conn Smythes?
For anybody who didn't watch the '80s Oilers, a good rule of thumb is that whenever Messier is reasonably close to Gretzky in points, Messier is probably outplaying Gretzky.
For anybody who didn't watch the '80s Oilers, a good rule of thumb is that whenever Messier is reasonably close to Gretzky in points, Messier is probably outplaying Gretzky.
Speaking of Gretzky and voter fatigue - it's always so weird for me to consider his trophy case.
I started actively following hockey around 1993 - so I only really have recollection of trophy voting and dynamics around votes for the past ~30 years or so. And based on what I know about voter fatigue and how it usually works and impacts things - I don't know what's stranger about Gretzky's voting record - his high number of harts, or low number of smythes.
In my mind - 100% Gretzky would have won the smythe in 1984 if that run occured around ~2010 or so, rather than Messier. He probably would have won in 1983 in a losing cause too - and definitely would have won in 1987. There's a chance he wouldn't win all 3 smythes (by the time he'd be up for his 4th or 5th smythe, voter fatigue kicking in could come into play) - but he'd definitely win more than just the 2 he has on the Oilers. Voters were trying way too hard to reward someone else.
In contrast - I can't imagine Gretzky winning 8 hart trophies in a row in today's era. Voters would have found a reason to give one or another to someone else. Though I suppose it's hard to say which year - because there wasn't exactly anyone close to him in any year until Lemieux in 1988, where he did win.
I didn't watch any of those playoffs. So just going by what I know historically of all those playoff runs.
But in a perfect world - this is how I think Smythes should have occured for Oilers in cup winning years:
1984 - Gretzky 100%. 7 points in finals, 35 points overall. Big edge over Messier and anyone else. Cup clinching game - Gretzky 2 goals in first to give Oilers the edge, 3 points overall...the Messier narrative never made sense to me. Voters trying too hard to exclude Gretzky
1985 - Gretzky. His best run. I absolutely love Coffey's run and would have loved to see him rewarded in some way - but Gretzky was definitely better, so it's a slam dunk.
1987 - Messier.
1988 - Gretzky
1990 - Not sure, maybe Messier again, or someone else. Few options - Ranford probably ok too.
So - Gretzky 84 & 85, and then voter fatigue kicks in and Messier gets the nod by 87, then Gretzky again for 88.
I actually think Gretzky probably should have won in 1983 too. The one caveat is he wasn't great in finals, so I could understand him maybe losing, but he'd still be my #1 pick. Maybe if Gretzky wins smythe in 1983, you find a way not to give it to him also in 1984 - but him losing out on both is stupid.
Video Nasty
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It’s a tough call. I think Gretzky deserved it as well, but the fatigue of him winning so many trophies must have set in by that point.
When reflecting on Hextall, it has to be chalked up to doing a pretty good job containing the powerful Oilers as a unit. 22 goals across 7 games (3.14 GPG) is a pretty good total to limit them to (4.65 GPG in the regular season and an identical 4.64 GPG in the playoffs in 14 games prior to that series).
The Oilers were up 2-0 and 3-1 in that series. It was a 1 goal game until late in the third period of Game 7. Hextall faced 43 shots in that game. Fuhr only faced 20. He stonewalled them after the first period of Game 6 to help force the game to begin with. He turned it around early in the second period of Game 5 to do his part of starting the big comeback. I can see why he won the Smythe and when acknowledging that fatigue had set in on Gretzky, I think he’s a pretty inoffensive choice.
JohnnyBerts
Registered User
I understand the argument for voter fatigue but I don't like it. It generally makes for a poor selection in hindsight. I'd pick Ranford here because I don't think Hextall was a great choice and I'm not sure the Oilers win without some of Ranford's brilliant performances in '90.
Messier was a beast in the playoffs but also have to give Kurri and Simpson some recognition for 8 points each to Messier's 5 assist in the finals. I can be convinced any of those guys were worthy of consideration.
Messier was a beast in the playoffs but also have to give Kurri and Simpson some recognition for 8 points each to Messier's 5 assist in the finals. I can be convinced any of those guys were worthy of consideration.
If you consider all trophy wins in a vacuum - yes, there's a ton of voter fatigue for Gretzky come 1987. His performance in the playoffs that year wasn't so outwordly good that he should win regardless of any fatigue. But I try to look at trophies individually. Meaning - ignoring all of his harts and rosses - and focusing only on the Conn Smythes.
And by 1987 - I feel as though Gretzky had already been robbed of 2 Conn Smythes. He should have won in 1983 (in a losing cause), and he should have won above Messier in 1984. And yes - still in 1985 too obviously.
Had he won 3 smythes by 1987 - I 100% absolutely agree he shouldn't also win in 1987. Give it to Messier, Kurri...even Hextall I suppose if you really want to, but he definitely isn't my #2.
I'd even be ok with skipping on Gretzky for the 1987 Smythe if he had only won 2 smythes up to that point in his career (so 1985 and one of 83 or 84 vs both).
But with only 1 smythe when he objectively should have had 3 - having a 4th one "robbed" from him just feels excessive.
Staniowski
Registered User
I don't think there's any voter fatigue for Gretzky involved in any of these Conn Smythes; I think voter fatigue is just being discussed by people who don't have much knowledge of what actually happened.
I really don't think Gretzky was even in the discussion much for the Conn Smythe in any of '83, '84, or '87.
In '83, there was a strong feeling that Gretzky couldn't score against a great team like the Islanders, so I doubt he had any support at all. The Islanders crushed them.
In '84, almost everybody watching thought Messier deserved it, and Messier was, I think, way ahead of Gretzky going into the Finals. And Gretzky's point total in the Finals are not indicative of his quality of play - he was a relative non-factor for most of the important parts of the series.
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