blundluntman
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Conn Smythe Tournament (1977-00) Final Round: 1991 Lemieux vs 1985 Wayne Gretzky
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Nathaniel Skywalker
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Nadal On Clay
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Lemieux seems like the perfect “I’ll be different and chose him” choice, but the right answer is Gretzky.
MOGlLNY
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Video Nasty
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Gretzky beats him no matter how you look at it.
Can even factor work load into it and be impressed by how he just kept going and going. Heading into 1984-1985, he already played 5 seasons totaling 445 games (393 regular season games and 52 postseason games).
Plays another 80 games and this 18 game playoff run. This completed a third consecutive Finals appearance and repeating as champions. That’s nearly 550 games of NHL hockey in just 6 seasons. His excellence is so uninterrupted by this point. It must have taken a lot for him to perform at that high of a level night in and night out.
Meanwhile, Lemieux’s season ended at the beginning of April in 5 of the 6 seasons he played heading into 1990-1991. He played just 11 playoff games up to that point, occurring in the 1988-1989 season. The direct season before, he exited in February, and returned for the final game of 1989-1990. He then missed the first 50 games of that 1990-1991 season and with the playoff run, put only 49 games into his body.
Just adding a point I rarely see mentioned, since this poll and topic is a foregone conclusion either way.
Can even factor work load into it and be impressed by how he just kept going and going. Heading into 1984-1985, he already played 5 seasons totaling 445 games (393 regular season games and 52 postseason games).
Plays another 80 games and this 18 game playoff run. This completed a third consecutive Finals appearance and repeating as champions. That’s nearly 550 games of NHL hockey in just 6 seasons. His excellence is so uninterrupted by this point. It must have taken a lot for him to perform at that high of a level night in and night out.
Meanwhile, Lemieux’s season ended at the beginning of April in 5 of the 6 seasons he played heading into 1990-1991. He played just 11 playoff games up to that point, occurring in the 1988-1989 season. The direct season before, he exited in February, and returned for the final game of 1989-1990. He then missed the first 50 games of that 1990-1991 season and with the playoff run, put only 49 games into his body.
Just adding a point I rarely see mentioned, since this poll and topic is a foregone conclusion either way.
JackSlater
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Gretzky was better in earlier rounds. It's closer if you look at rounds 3 and 4 only
Rounds 1 and 2:
Lemieux 17 points in 12 games, and 5 goals
Gretzky 18 points in 7 games, and 6 goals
Rounds 3 and 4:
Lemieux 27 points in 11 games, and 11 goals
Gretzky 29 points in 11 games, and 11 goals
If you adjust for scoring era/opponents - you can possibly give Lemieux the edge here in rounds 3 and 4.
Lemieux in first 2 rounds was 4 points behind Recchi on his team (21 points in 12 games). Of course - Recchy only has 13 points rest of the way vs 27 for Lemieux. He had 9 more points than any Penguin in rounds 3 and 4. Also a team lead +14
Gretzky rounds 3 and 4 probably had a more help than Lemieux. He had Coffey with 25 points in 11 games, and Kurri with 22 (also 13 goals). Lemieux had support too, but definitely stood out more as the very clear MVP.
Both were also super clutch to close out important series:
Both with 11 points in last 4 games (all wins) of finals.
Lemieux with 11 points in last 4 games (all wins) of round 3 - Gretzky with 8 points in last 2 games (both wins) of round 3.
So very similar runs, Gretzky is simply more consistent early on and procudes more overall, and gets the edge.
Rounds 1 and 2:
Lemieux 17 points in 12 games, and 5 goals
Gretzky 18 points in 7 games, and 6 goals
Rounds 3 and 4:
Lemieux 27 points in 11 games, and 11 goals
Gretzky 29 points in 11 games, and 11 goals
If you adjust for scoring era/opponents - you can possibly give Lemieux the edge here in rounds 3 and 4.
Lemieux in first 2 rounds was 4 points behind Recchi on his team (21 points in 12 games). Of course - Recchy only has 13 points rest of the way vs 27 for Lemieux. He had 9 more points than any Penguin in rounds 3 and 4. Also a team lead +14
Gretzky rounds 3 and 4 probably had a more help than Lemieux. He had Coffey with 25 points in 11 games, and Kurri with 22 (also 13 goals). Lemieux had support too, but definitely stood out more as the very clear MVP.
Both were also super clutch to close out important series:
Both with 11 points in last 4 games (all wins) of finals.
Lemieux with 11 points in last 4 games (all wins) of round 3 - Gretzky with 8 points in last 2 games (both wins) of round 3.
So very similar runs, Gretzky is simply more consistent early on and procudes more overall, and gets the edge.
These poll series have been super fun to follow. I hope you have another one planned after this.
Also - I really love the results of this one. Lemieux/Gretzky are the clear top 2 runs ever for me - and it's fitting that Roy 93 was the 3rd finalist to give them a run for their money. So it played out really nice in the voting.
Shark Finn
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Video Nasty
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No way.
Oilers played the President Trophy winner 113 point Flyers (when 113 points meant something) in the Finals. Penguins played the 68 point, #15 out of 16 seeds North Stars in the Finals. Mario also missed Game 1 of the Finals. Gretzky scored 7 goals of his team’s 21 goals (11 total points). Mario scored 5 of his team’s 28 goals (12 points).
Nathaniel Skywalker
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Bouboumaster
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blundluntman
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Yeah I'll be doing a 77-00 Hart Tourney after this one. I've experimented with the brackets a bit and I think I can make a decent tourney even with all the Gretzky seasons
Hockey Outsider
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Thank you for organizing these tournaments - it makes for good off-season discussion.
Have you considered adding eight more years (ie go back to 1969-70)? That way the tournament is a full bracket of 32 seasons, and this way we can add peak Bobby Orr to the mix?
SillyRabbit
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Which begs the question on whether these polls would have more accurate results if they were in the History of Hockey section instead, or if they'd end up the same.
Hockey Outsider
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Outside of the History forum, I doubt there's a meaningful difference in terms of the percentage of posters who watched Orr's career live vs those who watched the 1980's. Maybe we're talking about 5% vs 15%. In either case, the vast majority of participants would be relying on some combination of stats and anecdotes.
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I would venture to say that the majority of voters weren't alive to have seen either performance.
There almost needs to be a 3rd option that says "I wasn't there so I wouldn't know"
There almost needs to be a 3rd option that says "I wasn't there so I wouldn't know"
blundluntman
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I hadn't considered it but I could mess around with the brackets and see if it's feasible (the first round just started so it'd still be possible to add more contestants). It may be tough to make a diverse bracket though with there only being 3 different players across those 8 years
