Comparing Ken Holland with Peter Chiarelli

[Dazed and Confused]

Chia fell into the same trap as MacT.

Some good early trades, MPS for Perron, Scrivens for Kassian, Maroon for a song and a dance... But fixing the issues of your predecessor is easy, it's a lot harder when your solutions fail. But good news for those two: that was just impossible. *Fingers in ears* LALALALALALALALA

Nikitin and Ference are top 4 defencemen, on-ice results be damned; Jultz will always be the golden boy, while Petry needs to prove himself; Eakins is a top-tier coach and definitely not a snake oils salesman; Lucic is a top 6er, 30 games without a goal be damned; Pulju at 18/19 is ready to replace Ebs, he just he's a broken down Jokinen to unlock his endless potential...


Say what you will about Holland, but he doesn't keep trying to beat that dead horse to get it to work.
AA was cast off asap when he didn't click McDavid or Drai. Same with Campbell, who probably got too little rope, but that's the price when you make 5mil in a tight cap world.

Plus his bold moves actually worked out more often than not. Hyman, Ekholm being the two biggest gems.

***

The only one I'll defend Chia on: Imo Reinhart wasn't his mistake. He had only been with the organisation for 2 months and had no experience with Reinhart. That one was entirely pushed for by Green.

But what should have happened was Chia saying sure he's a great prospect, but the team already has Klefbom and Marincin showing decently at the NHL level, Davidson and Oesterle playing well in OKC, and Nurse drafted 2 years previous. Why the hell was another young LHD a need?
Not pushing back after the team depth chart is where Chia f***ed up.

 

[tiger_80]

List of Holland's trades as an Oiler:

Lucic+3rd round pick for Neal - small win as getting rid of Lucic was essential, but still paying for Neal buyout today.

John Marino for 6th round pick - meh

Kyle Brodziak + 4th for Mike Green - meh

Two x2nd round picks (plus fan favourite Sam Gagner) for Athanasiou - absolutely horrendous

5th round pick for Tyler Ennis - meh

4th round pick for Kulikov - meh

Caleb Jones + 3rd round pick for Duncan Keith - Absolutely horrendous. Should have received a 1st round pick to take Keith from Chicago.

Ethan Bear for Warren Foegele - win. Foegele was a decent contributor here for 3 years and Bear has bounced around.

Lagesson+2nd for Kulak - win. If Kulak had just been a rental I don't think it would have been worth it. But he's been a good player for us since.

4th round pick for Derek Brassard - bad trade

Kassian + 1st + 2nd + 3rd for 1st - horrendous (to be fair more so an issue of the awful contract he gave to Kassian).

Samorukov for Kostin - win

Puljujarvi for some rando - meh

Barrie+Schaeffer for Ekholm - A++ massive win

Bjugstad for 4th - meh

Yamamoto+Kostin for futures - meh. Didn't have the cap space to re-sign Kostin and at least didn't give up anything to dump Yamamoto

4th rounder for Troy Stetcher - meh. Team never wanted to play him and then he got hurt.

1st+4th for Henrique and Carrick - win because Henrique re-signed but a 1st was a lot to give up for a guy that was relegated to 3rd line duty.

Overall I think that is a pretty mediocre list of trades. One really great trade in 5 years when the team was trying to win a cup isn't nearly good enough imo. A handful of other decent trades. A bunch of meh deadline acquisitions that never really helped us get anywhere. And a couple really terrible ones.

(I left out ones that just involved AHL guys or just picks)

The thing that stands out to me is that of all those trades and additions, only Ekholm and Foegele were positive value guys who had team control beyond the season we acquired them. Everyone else was UFA or an RFA we couldn't qualify. We re-signed Kulak and Henrique and obviously their time here played a big part in that. But both of them made it into free agency before we signed them.

Overall I don't think Holland was ever proactive enough in improving the roster. He never gave the impression he was turning over every stone and looking in every corner to make deals that could make the team better and he all but refused to make "NHL trades" (players for players).

I don't think I can bring myself to look through the Chiarelli trades though lol. The Talbot and Maroon ones he made were really good. After that is a calamity of cluster f***ery.

The absolute worst was Ath anasiou. Most trades were inconseqeuntial in the grand scheme of things, but some pushed the franchise in the right direction (Ekholm, Henrique, Kulak, Foegele). He did way better with free agent signings, with the exception of Campbell (Hyman, Kane, Ceci, Janmark, Brown). The draft record is quite underwhelming. Maybe Holloway turns into something. What's up with Bourgault?

 

[oXo Cube]

Eberle for Strome was a bad trade that had more public support than hindsight suggests it really should have.

Strome for Spooner was a disastrous trade then and now.

 

[Soundwave]

The funny thing about Chiarelli was he actually started off OK.

Sekera was a good UFA add. Talbot for peanuts was very good, albiet a favor from Sather. Kassian for Scrivens was good. Maroon for peanuts was a steal.

We were doing OK, but his arrogant way of giving away young budding stars and being OK with "losing trades" reared its ugly head, after giving away Kessel and Seguin, he couldn't resist going back to the cookie jar of stupid and doing Hall for Larsson and even though they had one good year from that, things gradually started to fall apart from there.

Blowing the 2016 1st on Puljujarvi though was a disaster if they took Tkachuk or Sergachev there, Chiarelli probably still is working as an NHL GM somewhere.

 

[Soundwave]

Chia fell into the same trap as MacT.

Some good early trades, MPS for Perron, Scrivens for Kassian, Maroon for a song and a dance... But fixing the issues of your predecessor is easy, it's a lot harder when your solutions fail. But good news for those two: that was just impossible. *Fingers in ears* LALALALALALALALA

Nikitin and Ference are top 4 defencemen, on-ice results be damned; Jultz will always be the golden boy, while Petry needs to prove himself; Eakins is a top-tier coach and definitely not a snake oils salesman; Lucic is a top 6er, 30 games without a goal be damned; Pulju at 18/19 is ready to replace Ebs, he just he's a broken down Jokinen to unlock his endless potential...


Say what you will about Holland, but he doesn't keep trying to beat that dead horse to get it to work.
AA was cast off asap when he didn't click McDavid or Drai. Same with Campbell, who probably got too little rope, but that's the price when you make 5mil in a tight cap world.

Plus his bold moves actually worked out more often than not. Hyman, Ekholm being the two biggest gems.

***

The only one I'll defend Chia on: Imo Reinhart wasn't his mistake. He had only been with the organisation for 2 months and had no experience with Reinhart. That one was entirely pushed for by Green.

But what should have happened was Chia saying sure he's a great prospect, but the team already has Klefbom and Marincin showing decently at the NHL level, Davidson and Oesterle playing well in OKC, and Nurse drafted 2 years previous. Why the hell was another young LHD a need?
Not pushing back after the team depth chart is where Chia f***ed up.

2 months is actually quite a long time, it's not like there was any debate over who we were taking at no.1, so his focus should have been who were we taking with the no.16 pick.

Ultimately for all the stupid shit he did, he probably would still have a job somewhere (probably not here, but somewhere) if he didn't blow the 16 pick, the Puljujarvi pick, and the Tyler Benson over McDavid's teammate DeBrincat picks.

If he could have gotten even 1/3 of those right, it would 've changed the trajectory of the Chiarelli era here ... but as they say ... three strikes and you're out.

 

[ChaoticOrange]

Chiarelli's only strength was drafting. Many of his picks are still on the team today and we fumbled away a couple more he made (Marino, Kesselring) for nothing too.

Drafting B
Free agents F
Contract negotiations C
Trades F-

Holland's drafting leaves a lot to be desired, and he owns some truly colossal f***ups, but he damaged this team a lot less than Chia did.

Drafting D
Free agents B
Contract negotiations C
Trades C (most of this value is from the Ekholm deal)

 

[oobga]

Chiarelli's only strength was drafting. Many of his picks are still on the team today and we fumbled away a couple more he made (Marino, Kesselring) for nothing too.

Drafting B
Free agents F
Contract negotiations C
Trades F-

Holland's drafting leaves a lot to be desired, and he owns some truly colossal f***ups, but he damaged this team a lot less than Chia did.

Drafting D
Free agents B
Contract negotiations C
Trades C (most of this value is from the Ekholm deal)

Tyler Wright was one of the worst things with Holland. The body of work is weak, but just using 2 unforced errors, the benefit of having an obvious pick like Zegras, and following up on Coffey's begging for us to take Wyatt Johnston would have been significant.

Zegras could have been traded any time for a solid RHD if we didn't want to keep him. I know ppl loving Broberg right now, but Zegras could have been traded for better than a Broberg tier prospect any time from 2021-23 after putting up PPG with McDavid or Drai. That would have been the benefit of trying to maximize asset value in the org by taking the BPA.

Johnston would have been lighting it up with McDavid or Drai on his ELC this last playoffs. Just that 1 add probably means cup win.


Oh well, now we have Jackson to help make any GM a A+ for contract negotiations. Trades needs to be the top skill of the next GM. There is no other path to fixing our D now IMO.

 

[KlefDown]

thats like comparing Hitler and Moussolini

 

[commie]

Chia must've been a double agent send by the league/Bettman to screw the team for getting McDavid.
The Oilers actually paid a 2nd round pick for that screw up lol Who thought giving up a 2nd rd pick and a 3rd rd pick for a new GM and coach was a good idea?
Then the Screw Up goes and trade away more draft capital for a prospect that was already trending to be a bust. No matter how well Chia drafted afterwards, the team already thrown away one 1st rd pick, two 2nd rd pick, and a 3rd rd pick before Chia's team even played a game. He was never able to recover from that first summer on the job.

Add to this the Lucic signing, and the team is still paying for Lucic/Neal right now. So Holland has Campbell, but Chia has Lucic, so those two even out.

If the Oilers had hired someone like Holland instead of Chia, I am pretty sure that the team would have won at least 1 cup by now. And if the team had hired someone as progressive as JJ instead of Chia, the team would've already been a dynasty already, and McDrais next contracts would be like Chicago rewarding Kane/Toews in 2014.

Chia directly and indirectly put the team at least 5 years behind schedule.

 

[Canovin]

I truly believe some of these kids we drafted would have been better if we had a better development team behind them.

 

[McSuper]

Comparing the 2 is like comparing a Chevy Corvette to a Chevy Chevette. Both are Chevy's and both have vetted in their names but they are not alike at all.

Holland and Chia were both GM of the Oilers but one left the team in shambles the other left the team far better off then what he had when he arrived.

 

[Spawn]

The absolute worst was Ath anasiou. Most trades were inconseqeuntial in the grand scheme of things, but some pushed the franchise in the right direction (Ekholm, Henrique, Kulak, Foegele). He did way better with free agent signings, with the exception of Campbell (Hyman, Kane, Ceci, Janmark, Brown). The draft record is quite underwhelming. Maybe Holloway turns into something. What's up with Bourgault?

I disagree on a couple of those free agent signings but do agree he was better at that than trading. Although early on his bargain bin signings were basically all a waste of time.

Bourgault is fully in the “suspect” territory at this point.

I think both Holloway and Broberg will turn into something. I just think there are obviously more impactful picks made after them. But it’s not even just the 1st rounders. The team has seemingly missed on every single pick outside of the 1st round that was made in the Holland era.

Beau Akey I think we have hope for, but other than him there doesn’t feel like there’s a single real prospect amongst the group over 5 years of drafting. Its shockingly bad.

 

[tiger_80]

I disagree on a couple of those free agent signings but do agree he was better at that than trading. Although early on his bargain bin signings were basically all a waste of time.

Bourgault is fully in the “suspect” territory at this point.

I think both Holloway and Broberg will turn into something. I just think there are obviously more impactful picks made after them. But it’s not even just the 1st rounders. The team has seemingly missed on every single pick outside of the 1st round that was made in the Holland era.

Beau Akey I think we have hope for, but other than him there doesn’t feel like there’s a single real prospect amongst the group over 5 years of drafting. Its shockingly bad.

And that's strange. Detroit under Holland had legendary scouting. I guess in these day and age it is difficult to create an edge in this area, especially if you are not good at developing prospects.

 

[Donner]

And that's strange. Detroit under Holland had legendary scouting. I guess in these day and age it is difficult to create an edge in this area, especially if you are not good at developing prospects.

It was the scouting department, who is now in Dallas, who were responsible. Dallas has crushed the draft since that scouting department came over with Jim Nill

I never like to give credit to a GM for scouting. They arent the ones actually watching the prospects. They get the info from their scouts and in rounds 2 on, likely just go with what the scouts say

IMO GMs will mainly be responsible for the 1st round picks. Theyll use info from scouts but will overrule if need be. And for Holland, his drafting in the first round has been abysmal for 10 years now

Chiarelli left us with more of a short term mess, Holland will be long term. His drafting will haunt us in the future when we dont have the depth players coming up from the minors to help out

Chiarelli atleast left us with some good young players that are now helping us out

And the nurse contract will continue to be a disaster

 

[tiger_80]

It was the scouting department, who is now in Dallas, who were responsible. Dallas has crushed the draft since that scouting department came over with Jim Nill

I never like to give credit to a GM for scouting. They arent the ones actually watching the prospects. They get the info from their scouts and in rounds 2 on, likely just go with what the scouts say

IMO GMs will mainly be responsible for the 1st round picks. Theyll use info from scouts but will overrule if need be. And for Holland, his drafting in the first round has been abysmal for 10 years now

Chiarelli left us with more of a short term mess, Holland will be long term. His drafting will haunt us in the future when we dont have the depth players coming up from the minors to help out

Chiarelli atleast left us with some good young players that are now helping us out

And the nurse contract will continue to be a disaster

Depth players are cheap to acquire in free agency. See Janmark, Brown, Ryan. What will hurt is the failure to draft well in the first round. When you periodically get a top 6 forward/top 4 d-man/starting goal-tender out of later rounds, you really do well. At the very least, you need to get a steady stream of upper-end players drafted in the first round.

 

[Donner]

Depth players are cheap to acquire in free agency. See Janmark, Brown, Ryan. What will hurt is the failure to draft well in the first round. When you periodically get a top 6 forward/top 4 d-man/starting goal-tender out of later rounds, you really do well. At the very least, you need to get a steady stream of upper-end players drafted in the first round.

True, and the 1st round has been a big issue for Holland. Hes outright whiffed more times than hes found an NHLer

Which is an issue because if you draft a good prospect, they are an attractive trade option in the following years even when they are in junior/AHL. Hollands first rounder have a habit of disappointing in the years following the draft and rarely hold their value pst draft

 

[WaitingForUser]

The absolute worst was Ath anasiou. Most trades were inconseqeuntial in the grand scheme of things, but some pushed the franchise in the right direction (Ekholm, Henrique, Kulak, Foegele). He did way better with free agent signings, with the exception of Campbell (Hyman, Kane, Ceci, Janmark, Brown). The draft record is quite underwhelming. Maybe Holloway turns into something. What's up with Bourgault?

AA would have been re signed had Covid not created a flat cap. Remember when KH made that trade the cap was expected to rise by at the very least 5 million and possibly even 10.

 

[oobga]

AA would have been re signed had Covid not created a flat cap. Remember when KH made that trade the cap was expected to rise by at the very least 5 million and possibly even 10.

Wasn't AA a party boy, too good for a place like Edmonton? I think we just totally misread the player and the personality. Thought he even took less money to get out of here. 1.2M to enjoy LA. Couldn't even bring himself to try to reboot his career on the wing with McDavid or Drai, at the cost of not being in a big city.

 

[oXo Cube]

The only thing that would have made the AA trade worse is if the Oilers signed him to an extension. Thank god that never happened.

 

[WaitingForUser]

Wasn't AA a party boy, too good for a place like Edmonton? I think we just totally misread the player and the personality. Thought he even took less money to get out of here. 1.2M to enjoy LA. Couldn't even bring himself to try to reboot his career on the wing with McDavid or Drai, at the cost of not being in a big city.

He wasn’t qualified because of the flat cap and ended up getting that contract in LA yes. Not sure about the party boy thing tbh

 

[FiveFourteenSixOne]

Chia set the franchise back five f***ing years. The team has seen improvements under Holland, which is also impressive considering the absolute tire fire Chia left behind him.

 

[tiger_80]

Wasn't AA a party boy, too good for a place like Edmonton? I think we just totally misread the player and the personality. Thought he even took less money to get out of here. 1.2M to enjoy LA. Couldn't even bring himself to try to reboot his career on the wing with McDavid or Drai, at the cost of not being in a big city.

He did not do much better elsewhere. There is that type of skilled, one dimensional forward that we have seen plenty over the years (Comrie, Schremp, Nilsson, O'Sullivan, Omark, Strome, Spooner). They rarely pan out and certainly do not belong on winning teams.

 

[oobga]

He did not do much better elsewhere. There is that type of skilled, one dimensional forward that we have seen plenty over the years (Comrie, Schremp, Nilsson, O'Sullivan, Omark, Strome, Spooner). They rarely pan out and certainly do not belong on winning teams.

Yeah, I didn't really want him either. I'll take that kind of player if they are truly elite. Where the offense more than makes up for not being great on D. Wing is one place where you can get away with that with a good C. But he's continued his half hearted approach to hockey, and teams keep giving him 1 year deals because they don't trust him outside of a contract year (guess Chicago was finally bored enough they gave him 2 years to join the tankathon). And he's only an average top 6 winger even when he's on his game. Not worth it. He'll bounce around on bad teams until he's done.

He wasn’t qualified because of the flat cap and ended up getting that contract in LA yes. Not sure about the party boy thing tbh

I think we did offer him 2M though, and he decided he was too good to be here. 1.2M was super cheap for a player with his history at the time, but he may have only limited himself to big city teams.

 

[GOilers88]

I think people have fair and legitimate gripes about Holland, and I can respect that.

It's also a shame that we all love a franchise that makes us consistently pick between bad and worse.

But I take Holland every day of the week over Chiarelli. Whether you want to credit it all to McDrai or not doesn't matter to me. By default he was a massive upgrade based on the fact the team has never missed the playoffs under him as well as WCF and SCF appearances. Chiarelli inherited the same golden tickets and was fast tracking the team to historic lows across the board. Holland may not have brought a cup, but he didn't leave the team devoid of anything and everything, everywhere.

We can argue drafting, cap management, contracts, and every other individual aspect of the GMs, and like I said I fully acknowledge fair arguments can be made either way about Holland, but this is a complete no brainer for me.

 

[DrDrai]

Chia feels like a double agent to me. Especially the deal he made before getting canned

2015 1st and 2nd for Reinhart was still the dumbest trade in NHL history. 0% thought or work put into it. Couldn't even ask for Pulock

Why did you bring up that trade lol, I’ve been trying to repress that trade since it happened, now I’m angry again.