Comparing Ken Holland with Peter Chiarelli

[oobga]

Sounds like damage control to me. “Of course we wanted Koskinen at 4 mill”

I mean, we did also sign Campbell for 5x5M. And offer Marky more than Calgary

Put all hopes in 39+ Mike Smith for years after. In the end the only passable goalie we had after Talbot was a Chia draft pick with the help from Jackson's mental health coach.

There's a lot of history of terrible understanding of goaltending in this org that lived beyond Chia.

 

[WaitingForUser]

I think KH was obviously the better of the two. Chia was erratic and seemingly changing directions every year. The Reinhart and Hall deals will live in infamy. Tried to skip steps because of Connor and it ultimately cost us big time.


KH seemed to have a much more clear direction for the team and made the attempt to never sway from his vision. He made some big mistakes but some of those mistakes were beyond his control as well. He lost his top pairing Dman the minute he walked through the door. At the time no top 4 D men would come play here. With no wingers and only two top 4 defenseman he took the team from the bottom to the playoffs and second in the division. He even added some guys at the deadline. Then the world stopped for Covid and the real issues started. All of sudden the cap that was supposed to go up by 5-10 million dollars was not moving at all. Still he was able to add Barrie the following year and provide what little scoring support he could . The team continued to progress but the Goaltending continued to falter by the following summer. Having lost dirt to the Blackhawks and then to the Jets in back to back years he pushed hard for a goalie in the summer of 2021. None were to be had even with an overpay. He turned to Smith once more with a retirement deal. The team faltered early that season ultimately replacing the coach before rocketing to second in the division. He added a defenseman and a top 6 winger. The team once again was done in by goaltending and defense. That summer he made a decision that the number one priority was goaltending and signed JC to a monster 5x5 deal. This was the one that killed them JC was a disaster his first season and we were very lucky a hot young rookie goalie caught fire. His dream was finally realized when he added Ekholm at the deadline. Finally we had a top pair d man. We all know how this season went.


All in all KH made some bad moves and some good moves. But his vision never faltered he had a clear direction for this team and we didn’t miss the playoffs once under his reign. It’s really no comparison one guy dismantled a team on the verge the other navigated the rough waters and got us as close as you can get without winning it all.

Jackson though, Jackson probably just put the finishing touches on what will be the ultimate prize. How he did what he just did I will never know absolute masterclass.

 

[MessierII]

If you could mix hollands patience with chiarelli’s drafting you would have a great GM

 

[tiger_80]

I think Chiarelli set the Oilers back massively. Jaypoo pick, Lucic, bad trades, poor talent evaluation. They should have been a perennial cup contender by 2018 if he did his job. Basically they've become that only in the past couple of years.

 

[Hollywood55]

Chiarelli stands next to Mad Mike Milbury as one of the worst GM's in NHL history.

He got owned every single trade he made. He didn't make a good trade his entire oilers tenure.

 

[MessierII]

He got owned every single trade he made. He didn't make a good trade his entire oilers tenure.

Gonna disagree there. Kassian for Scrivens was great. Also picking up Maroon for I think a 4th and a no name prospect. Talbot for some late picks. He made some good small trades. Couple of his big trades Hall for Larsson and Eberle for Strome were both pretty good in retrospect. The disasters were his first one for reinhart and his entire last year.

 

[Hollywood55]

Chiarelli was trying to build the team like the 2011 Bruins and overvalued toughness and defense over offense. That's why he always tried to get big and tall defenseman and signed Lucic but zero offense for Connor and Leon.

 

[OilerTyler]

Chiarelli was given a bad team with some good pieces and turned it into a worse team.

Holland adopted that bad team and had us in the Western Conference Finals in 3 years and the Stanley Cup Finals in 5.

 

[tiger_80]

Gonna disagree there. Kassian for Scrivens was great. Also picking up Maroon for I think a 4th and a no name prospect. Talbot for some late picks. He made some good small trades. Couple of his big trades Hall for Larsson and Eberle for Strome were both pretty good in retrospect. The disasters were his first one for reinhart and his entire last year.

Eberle for Strome was a disaster. It went from Strome to Spooner to nothing in a year.

 

[rboomercat90]

This team has had awful management since Glen Sather left town and if we’re being completely honest his last several years here weren’t very good either. Fwiw, Holland has been the best of everything that’s come since. It’s possible that Jackson’s arrival has made Holland look better than he was but it really doesn’t matter now as that era is over and it did end with a trip to the Stanley Cup Finals.

Keep seeing Griffin Reinhart’s name pop up in this thread and Chiarelli getting roasted over it. I believed then and still do now that he was the least responsible for that one. Chiarelli was new on the job and everybody else in management was an OBC hire and those guys back then were drooling over all those ex Oil Kings and were collecting them as fast as they could. I suspect he accepted their recommendation for that trade, not many of those scouts survived long after that.

 

[MessierII]

Eberle for Strome was a disaster. It went from Strome to Spooner to nothing in a year.

The second part was more the disaster though. Strome actually produced more than Eberle after getting to NY and made literally half the money. It made sense at the time the mistake was not keeping Strome and using him properly.

 

[tiger_80]

The second part was more the disaster though. Strome actually produced more than Eberle after getting to NY and made literally half the money. It made sense at the time the mistake was not keeping Strome and using him properly.

That's not what I remember. Strome was a massive disappointment. Did not produce like a top 6 forward and was soft and useless defensively. Eberle at least could be counted on to deliver 20 goals every year, though he's a limited player.

 

[OilerTyler]

That's not what I remember. Strome was a massive disappointment. Did not produce like a top 6 forward and was soft and useless defensively. Eberle at least could be counted on to deliver 20 goals every year, though he's a limited player.

Strome sucked, but it definitely didn't help that McClellan wanted him to be our third line centre instead of giving him opportunities in the top six. His stint in New York showed that he can produce when playing with skilled players. In his first year here, these were his top four line mates by TOI at 5 on 5.

Khaira (263:16)
Puljujarvi (237:55)
Lucic (216:19)
Caggiula (206:49)

That's a pretty sad group.

 

[tiger_80]

Strome sucked, but it definitely didn't help that McClellan wanted him to be our third line centre instead of giving him opportunities in the top six. His stint in New York showed that he can produce when playing with skilled players. In his first year here, these were his top four line mates by TOI at 5 on 5.

Khaira (263:16)
Puljujarvi (237:55)
Lucic (216:19)
Caggiula (206:49)

That's a pretty sad group.

Yikes. That's Chia's managerial prowess. Most of them are not even in the league anymore even though not old.

 

[The Panther]

Chiarelli was far, far worse, obviously. Holland was basically good. He gets a 'B plus'. (You can't get an 'A' with the Nurse contract under your belt.)

Chiarelli... Oh Lord, where do you even start? He was hired in that strange era when the Oilers seemed to feel that bringing in outside people who had done anything at all in the past was the solution. They must have endlessly kissed Chiarelli's ass because he certainly had that "smartest guy in the room" attitude, where he had convinced himself that anything he did was going to be genius.

People (rightfully) talk about the Reinhart and Eberle messes. The Koskinen contract (a mystery that had yet to be explained). Don't forget the money and term he gave to Milan Lucic. And, possibly, stupidest of all, he gave away Ryan Strome for Ryan Spooner... who had 26 games left in his career. Strome has since scored 277 points and was a 1st-unit PP guy on the Rangers.

 

[NeverForget06]

Strome sucked, but it definitely didn't help that McClellan wanted him to be our third line centre instead of giving him opportunities in the top six. His stint in New York showed that he can produce when playing with skilled players. In his first year here, these were his top four line mates by TOI at 5 on 5.

Khaira (263:16)
Puljujarvi (237:55)
Lucic (216:19)
Caggiula (206:49)

That's a pretty sad group.

Why were we even surprised those teams couldn't make the playoffs.... yeesh

 

[tiger_80]

Chiarelli was far, far worse, obviously. Holland was basically good. He gets a 'B plus'. (You can't get an 'A' with the Nurse contract under your belt.)

Chiarelli... Oh Lord, where do you even start? He was hired in that strange era when the Oilers seemed to feel that bringing in outside people who had done anything at all in the past was the solution. They must have endlessly kissed Chiarelli's ass because he certainly had that "smartest guy in the room" attitude, where he had convinced himself that anything he did was going to be genius.

People (rightfully) talk about the Reinhart and Eberle messes. The Koskinen contract (a mystery that had yet to be explained). Don't forget the money and term he gave to Milan Lucic. And, possibly, stupidest of all, he gave away Ryan Strome for Ryan Spooner... who had 26 games left in his career. Strome has since scored 277 points and was a 1st-unit PP guy on the Rangers.

He made some blunders (Campbell--for which he will be roasted), but overall Holland was quite good at acquiring established players (Hyman, Kane, Henrique, Janmark, Ekholm, Ceci, Kulak, even Brown, previously Foegele, Ryan, Bjugstad, Kostin. Neal played well in his first year. Make no mistake, he was responsible for putting together the team that fell 1 game short from winning it all. He's one of the best in business no doubt about it.

 

[TheNumber4]

Holland was way way way better. Im starting to think we’re gonna miss him when it comes to trades (NOT signing or drafting).

 

[oobga]

The second part was more the disaster though. Strome actually produced more than Eberle after getting to NY and made literally half the money. It made sense at the time the mistake was not keeping Strome and using him properly.

I recall McLellan kinda sabotaged the chance for Strome to do anything here. Instead of playing him on the wing with McDavid or Drai he glued him to Jesse and let him drown on a 3rd line. McLellan, the stubborn SOB he is, was asked in pre-season why he wasn't trying Strome with McDavid. Might have been it, the idea had to be forever blacklisted for McLellan because it would have been someone elses idea

As soon as Strome leaves here and actually gets some good offensive opportunity, he took off.

Chia was in total panic mode that year, and the rangers must have identified we were misusing Strome. Spooner was a funny add and took advantage of Chia. Spooner and Lucic played really well together for half a year in Boston way back. Desperate panicky Chia was praying for a miracle.

 

[Spawn]

Holland was way way way better. Im starting to think we’re gonna miss him when it comes to trades (NOT signing or drafting).

List of Holland's trades as an Oiler:

Lucic+3rd round pick for Neal - small win as getting rid of Lucic was essential, but still paying for Neal buyout today.

John Marino for 6th round pick - meh

Kyle Brodziak + 4th for Mike Green - meh

Two x2nd round picks (plus fan favourite Sam Gagner) for Athanasiou - absolutely horrendous

5th round pick for Tyler Ennis - meh

4th round pick for Kulikov - meh

Caleb Jones + 3rd round pick for Duncan Keith - Absolutely horrendous. Should have received a 1st round pick to take Keith from Chicago.

Ethan Bear for Warren Foegele - win. Foegele was a decent contributor here for 3 years and Bear has bounced around.

Lagesson+2nd for Kulak - win. If Kulak had just been a rental I don't think it would have been worth it. But he's been a good player for us since.

4th round pick for Derek Brassard - bad trade

Kassian + 1st + 2nd + 3rd for 1st - horrendous (to be fair more so an issue of the awful contract he gave to Kassian).

Samorukov for Kostin - win

Puljujarvi for some rando - meh

Barrie+Schaeffer for Ekholm - A++ massive win

Bjugstad for 4th - meh

Yamamoto+Kostin for futures - meh. Didn't have the cap space to re-sign Kostin and at least didn't give up anything to dump Yamamoto

4th rounder for Troy Stetcher - meh. Team never wanted to play him and then he got hurt.

1st+4th for Henrique and Carrick - win because Henrique re-signed but a 1st was a lot to give up for a guy that was relegated to 3rd line duty.

Overall I think that is a pretty mediocre list of trades. One really great trade in 5 years when the team was trying to win a cup isn't nearly good enough imo. A handful of other decent trades. A bunch of meh deadline acquisitions that never really helped us get anywhere. And a couple really terrible ones.

(I left out ones that just involved AHL guys or just picks)

The thing that stands out to me is that of all those trades and additions, only Ekholm and Foegele were positive value guys who had team control beyond the season we acquired them. Everyone else was UFA or an RFA we couldn't qualify. We re-signed Kulak and Henrique and obviously their time here played a big part in that. But both of them made it into free agency before we signed them.

Overall I don't think Holland was ever proactive enough in improving the roster. He never gave the impression he was turning over every stone and looking in every corner to make deals that could make the team better and he all but refused to make "NHL trades" (players for players).

I don't think I can bring myself to look through the Chiarelli trades though lol. The Talbot and Maroon ones he made were really good. After that is a calamity of cluster f***ery.

 

[StoveTopStauffer]

Chia was a solid drafter but idiotic trader. Holland was probably my or well rounded but a weaker drafter.

 

[unicornBLOOD]

both of them were HORRIBLE at evaluating goaltending.

 

[Aerchon]

Obviously Chiarelli was bad. Very bad, but I always feel the fans here have gone full scapegoat on him.

People skip from Eberle to Spooner without recognizing that at first we got a solid Strome. Spooner was omfg bad but Strome was a significant upgrade on Eberle. Eberle fans just hate that he got traded. Hall for Larsson also a public panned but pundit approved move that at first was lopsided towards Chiarelli than lopsided away and then basically a wash. Hall being moved also brought out the homer pitchforks.

Sekera was a great add until he got injured. Chiarelli did take a bottom 5 or worse team and get a playoff series win. Was absolutely better at drafting and cap management than Holland.

The dumb shit Holland has done seemed to succeed in spite of his mistakes rather than because of good GMing.

Having said all that, Holland getting the Oilers to the finals is a massive achievement that imo erases most of his blunders. It's unfortunate to be so close and to see his many mistakes and speculate just one less may have made the difference for a cup but... Speculation.

Despite the mistakes Holland deserves significant credit and Chiarelli deserves to be panned for his failures...

Just maybe not as much as many here seem to push hard for.

Edit: ooba has the right of it as well from things I heard. Oilers management forced Chiarelli to take Reinhart and Chiarelli publicly said that was not his decision at the draft while looking sick as a dog about it. The leadership was, and maybe still is a mess behind the scenes. The Oilers during Chiarelli and prior did not run the organization in a professional manner. A confusing cluster f*** at best.

Another reason to praise Holland. Those rumblings behind the scenes "seemed" to have gone away with him at the Oilers. I also believe Kevin Lowe and Mac T getting distance from any Oilers management decision is a great thing.

 

[AlanHUK]

Chia's bad decisions led directly to the current Nurse contract. The Koskinen contract pretty much killed the chance of a long term contract for Nurse at that point, which meant Nurse got a bridge deal at 5.6m instead of a long term deal between 6.5-7m in 2021.

 

[Burnt Biscuits]

Strome sucked, but it definitely didn't help that McClellan wanted him to be our third line centre instead of giving him opportunities in the top six. His stint in New York showed that he can produce when playing with skilled players. In his first year here, these were his top four line mates by TOI at 5 on 5.

Khaira (263:16)
Puljujarvi (237:55)
Lucic (216:19)
Caggiula (206:49)

That's a pretty sad group.

Watching Strome in NYI and then here and then NYR I think that period where McLellan pulled him back to tune the defensive part of his game was pretty critical in rounding him out as a player so he could make that latter push as a more complete player. I don't think he even gets the opportunity with Panarin if his play away from the puck didn't improve in his time here, our GM was too stupid to wait out a transitional phase and a career low 3.3% shooting percentage and traded him for a player he didn't even scout and who apparently every single scout in the organization unanimously said it was a terrible trade and a bad idea, but he said oh I used to have Spooner I know the player trust me.

Very similar circumstance that led to us trading for G. Reinhart, B. Green also had a great familiarity with Reinhart, so he didn't think he needed to scout him again, but Reinhart plateaued early and stopped progressing as a prospect.