Comparing Apples to Oranges ...

[Antropovsky]

They are absolutely legit argument as the opportunity to earn those endorsement dollars are directly tied to the level of popularity and exposure in different markets.
A player in Toronto, Montreal or New York will earn more in endorsements then some guy playing in the American desert…….Arizona

Marner makes 2 million in endorsements.... if he was on a different team he'd be lucky to hit 750,000. Since Karlsson, Seguin, Price all make 500,00 or less in endorsements.

Overpaid by about 1.5 million, gets signing bonuses rivaled probably by no other player and he's getting an addition 1.5 million km endorsements because of the crest on the front. Yea....wouldn't loved to see Marner leave. Meanwhile Guerin is playing chicken with a train with Kaprisov whose threatened to go back to KHL.

 

[danny90]

You have a point for UFA but in truth Dubas had all the power negotiating with Marner as a RFA. Yes teams like Tampa and Carolina can offer a better take home rate.. the thing is they can only make an offer sheet which the leafs have a chance to match. So there was virtually no market competition from those teams. It was a non factor.

Let's not pretend like Marner would have been willing to sit and lose out on a year of development, high pay and becoming Toronto public enemy #1.

He wasn't gonna sit. Dubas just folded like a cheap suit. He held out with Nylander and maybe didn't want the same pressure. Don't know. Whatever it was he overpaid by at least a couple mil.

Couple mil per year or overall?

 

[Dreakmur]

Something that never gets talked about is that Babcock may have made the negotiations harder.

This is pure speculation, but I'd assume that Marner particularly was not happy playing under Babcock, so that may have driven up his ask or made the negotiations a little harder.

That tells you a lot more about Marner’s character than anything else. If I’m the GM, it drives my price down.

 

[Stephen]

Give an example of an endorsement that a player in Toronto can make millions.

The NHL’s Highest-Paid Players 2021: Matthews, McDavid And Marner Score Despite Leaguewide Pay Cuts

The highest ranked Florida based athlete is Vasilevskiy, arguably the best goalie of his generation and he's earning a fraction of what someone like Marner makes in this market.

Zoom out a little bit and look at the newest contracts signed by Zach Hyman and Blake Coleman. Similar age, similar recent offensive production and one guy is coming off 2x Stanley Cup wins, and yet Hyman is making half a million more annually. If that isn't a good example of Leaf based fame that is being factored in, I don't know what is.

 

[KuleminFan41]

Something that never gets talked about is that Babcock may have made the negotiations harder.

This is pure speculation, but I'd assume that Marner particularly was not happy playing under Babcock, so that may have driven up his ask or made the negotiations a little harder.

It might have, but you have to think that to the players, they know coaches don't last long, so it might not have played that big of a part.

 

[Sypher04]

They are absolutely legit argument as the opportunity to earn those endorsement dollars are directly tied to the level of popularity and exposure in different markets.
A player in Toronto, Montreal or New York will earn more in endorsements then some guy playing in the American desert…….Arizona

Agree to disagree I guess. Lumping money made for work performed outside of their actual contracted job together with their NHL salary and calling it the same makes absolutely zero sense and is not comparable at all to the tax argument.

 

[7even]

Why can't fruit be compared

 

[justashadowof]

I remember when Mats Sundin took a shameful endorsement deal with some on-line poker site. The Leafs' retired captain who kids used to idolize. I wonder how much he got for that?

 

[Gary Nylund]

Agree to disagree I guess. Lumping money made for work performed outside of their actual contracted job together with their NHL salary and calling it the same makes absolutely zero sense and is not comparable at all to the tax argument.

They're both factors that help determine how lucrative a destination might be when compared to another though.

 

[hotpaws]

Agree to disagree I guess. Lumping money made for work performed outside of their actual contracted job together with their NHL salary and calling it the same makes absolutely zero sense and is not comparable at all to the tax argument.

it's comparable when they couldn't earn these endorsement dollars in many other markets

there's many teams who play in no state tax markets who haven't accomplished anything so just because T-Bay has had success and gotten there's stars to take discounts doesn't mean they took less because of paying less taxes

also many of the mid tier players didn't take discounts so maybe just maybe we should give credit to their mgmt and not make excuses why they've been successful

 

[myleafs]

Ok - so I'm not trying to give a blanket defense to every move that Dubas has ever made, but I'm honestly baffled about some of the criticism around the contracts as though they are completely done in a vacuum.

If I'm an agent, I'm looking at the 'take home' pay of a player when calculating how much they should make. I see these people ripping Dubas for the Contracts of the big 4, comparing them to Tampa and Carolina contracts (Kucherov or the new Svechnikov deal for example) and I can't help but think how it's night and day. Carolina - for example, has a flat Income Tax rate of 5.25%. If you live in Ontario - then you know that even with the creative accounting, our players are not coming even close to that.

I'm sure if we had a Tampa level tax rate you could convince Marner to take a $7.5 / $8 mil avg - but lets not pretend that how much a player takes home a the end of the day doesn't matter. Is it fair? No. But is it reality? Yes. Should it factor in to our judgment? I think so. Show me a talent equal to our big 4 on a Canadian Team who is signed to a significantly lower deal - and THEN you'd have your case....

Thoughts?

Marners 11 milly is 13.879 milly in canadian dollars, where he lives and spends it. Why is that never included in discussions about how much better off players are in Florida etc because of taxes?

 

[Sypher04]

They're both factors that help determine how lucrative a destination might be when compared to another though.

Sure, but that's never been the argument.

 

[DarkKnight]

One thing we always gloss over with these contracts, Dubas gave them all the money up front which should translate into a more reasonable salary average. The fact these agents all extracted front loaded contracts, the Leafs ability to do so, offering no team advantage, another failure IMO.

 

[Sypher04]

it's comparable when they couldn't earn these endorsement dollars in many other markets

there's many teams who play in no state tax markets who haven't accomplished anything so just because T-Bay has had success and gotten there's stars to take discounts doesn't mean they took less because of paying less taxes

also many of the mid tier players didn't take discounts so maybe just maybe we should give credit to their mgmt and not make excuses why they've been successful

I've never solely attributed it to taxes, so most of what you said really doesn't apply to how I've ever talked about this subject, but I think it'd be really naive for someone to actually believe they aren't a significant factor in why many of their star players have been ammenable to contracts well below market value.

Taxes have a direct impact on the AAV that a player can accept to be paid the same as a much higher AAV for the same work in another city. It is, once again, not the same thing.

 

[Sypher04]

One thing we always gloss over with these contracts, Dubas gave them all the money up front which should translate into a more reasonable salary average. The fact these agents all extracted front loaded contracts, the Leafs ability to do so, offering no team advantage, another failure IMO.

I would agree. Their should have been some kind of give from the player side for such perks

 

[Gary Nylund]

Sure, but that's never been the argument.

Ha, that's what I get for butting in I guess.

 

[Racer88]

Agree to disagree I guess. Lumping money made for work performed outside of their actual contracted job together with their NHL salary and calling it the same makes absolutely zero sense and is not comparable at all to the tax argument.

Fair enough. We can disagree

 

[Sypher04]

Ha, that's what I get for butting in I guess.

No no, you're fine. That's what people always turn the tax argument into, and what had happened in this thread before you responded, but the crux of the issue is how the cap is impacted not attracting the talent.

If it was the latter, what you said would be more relevant

 

[Racer88]

I find the concept strange that a player would choose to play in a reduced tax state then hand the entire tax savings to the team by accepting a cheaper contract then say in a higher tax area.
Wouldn’t that player and their agent want some of that saving in the form of a higher contract.

 

[Racer88]

Marners 11 milly is 13.879 milly in canadian dollars, where he lives and spends it. Why is that never included in discussions about how much better off players are in Florida etc because of taxes?

They are actually not better off playing in Florida because the argument is used for players of comparable skill to our stars that have taken less money supposedly because of less taxes
The argument is that they can take less money because of lower taxes and end of with the same take home $$. In those cases the tax saving is to the team.
If Stamko’s says I want Marner Money in Florida then the saving goes to him

 

[Mess]

Apples to Apples the Leafs have to play by the same salary cap as all teams, and it doesn't matter how people want to rationalize Leafs overspending to have 3 of the 5 highest AAV forwards as it still hurts their Cup competitiveness regardless.

 

[Throw More Waffles]

I've never solely attributed it to taxes, so most of what you said really doesn't apply to how I've ever talked about this subject, but I think it'd be really naive for someone to actually believe they aren't a significant factor in why many of their star players have been ammenable to contracts well below market value.

Taxes have a direct impact on the AAV that a player can accept to be paid the same as a much higher AAV for the same work in another city. It is, once again, not the same thing.

There's no absolute truth in these arguments. Just two theories.

Theory 1: Some gm's in low tax states may be able to convince their players to take a lower cap % than direct comparables under the argument they pay less taxes. Maybe it sometimes works. But I doubt it. These shark agents want every single solitary penny. They'll fight for similar cap percentage/term as their direct comparables and lower taxes are just icing on the cake.

Theory 2: Some gm's in massive markets may be able to convince their players to take a lower cap% than direct comparables under the argument they have WAY more endorsements opportunities resulting in dozens of millions over their career. Similarly, I doubt this works. The shark agents once again will fight tooth and nail for every single solitary last penny.

Both of these, imo, are just lame excuses. Good gm's get better deals. The end.

 

[Sypher04]

There's no absolute truth in these arguments. Just two theories.

Theory 1: Some gm's in low tax states may be able to convince their players to take a lower cap % than direct comparables under the argument they pay less taxes. Maybe it sometimes works. But I doubt it. These shark agents want every single solitary penny. They'll fight for similar cap percentage/term as their direct comparables and lower taxes are just icing on the cake.

Theory 2: Some gm's in massive markets may be able to convince their players to take a lower cap% than direct comparables under the argument they have WAY more endorsements opportunities resulting in dozens of millions over their career. Similarly, I doubt this works. The shark agents once again will fight tooth and nail for every single solitary last penny.

Both of these, imo, are just lame excuses. Good gm's get better deals. The end.

Those theories are not at all equivalent fwiw. But I do agree, what we are talking about in this thread is theoretical, only so much as to say it cannot really be proven.

It would however be quite naive to think the tax side doesn't factor into the AAV the player finds acceptable.

Lastly, just to make my position abundantly clear, I dont think no tax alone changes much for most players. However, when a team is elite, in a desirable location and has the pockets to offer other perks like big bonuses etc, then it becomes an advantage that can become leveragable by the team.

 

[Mickey Marner]

Marners 11 milly is 13.879 milly in canadian dollars, where he lives and spends it. Why is that never included in discussions about how much better off players are in Florida etc because of taxes?

That's a good point. The purchasing power of the American dollar offsets any tax disadvantage and then some.

 

[Jimmy Firecracker]

Look how much Matthews, Marner, and Tavares make in endorsements. For all the talk of the tax advantage teams like Tampa have, we should be able to compete with regards to the absolute monster coverage this franchise gets. I mean ffs Mikheyev mentioned he liked soup once and got a commercial out of it. That the Leafs and Dubas couldn’t leverage anything to keep the costs down and didn’t sign either Mitch or Auston for max term is a travesty.