Comparing Apples to Oranges ...

[DegDrew1975]

Ok - so I'm not trying to give a blanket defense to every move that Dubas has ever made, but I'm honestly baffled about some of the criticism around the contracts as though they are completely done in a vacuum.

If I'm an agent, I'm looking at the 'take home' pay of a player when calculating how much they should make. I see these people ripping Dubas for the Contracts of the big 4, comparing them to Tampa and Carolina contracts (Kucherov or the new Svechnikov deal for example) and I can't help but think how it's night and day. Carolina - for example, has a flat Income Tax rate of 5.25%. If you live in Ontario - then you know that even with the creative accounting, our players are not coming even close to that.

I'm sure if we had a Tampa level tax rate you could convince Marner to take a $7.5 / $8 mil avg - but lets not pretend that how much a player takes home a the end of the day doesn't matter. Is it fair? No. But is it reality? Yes. Should it factor in to our judgment? I think so. Show me a talent equal to our big 4 on a Canadian Team who is signed to a significantly lower deal - and THEN you'd have your case....

Thoughts?

Click to read more...

 

[ACC1224]

Ok - so I'm not trying to give a blanket defense to every move that Dubas has ever made, but I'm honestly baffled about some of the criticism around the contracts as though they are completely done in a vacuum.

If I'm an agent, I'm looking at the 'take home' pay of a player when calculating how much they should make. I see these people ripping Dubas for the Contracts of the big 4, comparing them to Tampa and Carolina contracts (Kucherov or the new Svechnikov deal for example) and I can't help but think how it's night and day. Carolina - for example, has a flat Income Tax rate of 5.25%. If you live in Ontario - then you know that even with the creative accounting, our players are not coming even close to that.

I'm sure if we had a Tampa level tax rate you could convince Marner to take a $7.5 / $8 mil avg - but lets not pretend that how much a player takes home a the end of the day doesn't matter. Is it fair? No. But is it reality? Yes. Should it factor in to our judgment? I think so. Show me a talent equal to our big 4 on a Canadian Team who is signed to a significantly lower deal - and THEN you'd have your case....

Thoughts?

How much does Marner take home?

 

[notbias]

Something that never gets talked about is that Babcock may have made the negotiations harder.

This is pure speculation, but I'd assume that Marner particularly was not happy playing under Babcock, so that may have driven up his ask or made the negotiations a little harder.

 

[Racer88]

How much does Marner take home?

Is that before or after endorsements

 

[ottomaddox]

Something that never gets talked about is that Babcock may have made the negotiations harder.

This is pure speculation, but I'd assume that Marner particularly was not happy playing under Babcock, so that may have driven up his ask or made the negotiations a little harder.

Most star players sign contracts that out live coaches.

 

[notbias]

Most star players sign contracts that out live coaches.

what does that have to do with anything?

 

[Crosscrease14]

You have a point for UFA but in truth Dubas had all the power negotiating with Marner as a RFA. Yes teams like Tampa and Carolina can offer a better take home rate.. the thing is they can only make an offer sheet which the leafs have a chance to match. So there was virtually no market competition from those teams. It was a non factor.

Let's not pretend like Marner would have been willing to sit and lose out on a year of development, high pay and becoming Toronto public enemy #1.

He wasn't gonna sit. Dubas just folded like a cheap suit. He held out with Nylander and maybe didn't want the same pressure. Don't know. Whatever it was he overpaid by at least a couple mil.

 

[egd27]

Something that never gets talked about is that Babcock may have made the negotiations harder.

This is pure speculation, but I'd assume that Marner particularly was not happy playing under Babcock, so that may have driven up his ask or made the negotiations a little harder.

You think that was never talked about here?

 

[BrannigansLaw]

Ok - so I'm not trying to give a blanket defense to every move that Dubas has ever made, but I'm honestly baffled about some of the criticism around the contracts as though they are completely done in a vacuum.

If I'm an agent, I'm looking at the 'take home' pay of a player when calculating how much they should make. I see these people ripping Dubas for the Contracts of the big 4, comparing them to Tampa and Carolina contracts (Kucherov or the new Svechnikov deal for example) and I can't help but think how it's night and day. Carolina - for example, has a flat Income Tax rate of 5.25%. If you live in Ontario - then you know that even with the creative accounting, our players are not coming even close to that.

I'm sure if we had a Tampa level tax rate you could convince Marner to take a $7.5 / $8 mil avg - but lets not pretend that how much a player takes home a the end of the day doesn't matter. Is it fair? No. But is it reality? Yes. Should it factor in to our judgment? I think so. Show me a talent equal to our big 4 on a Canadian Team who is signed to a significantly lower deal - and THEN you'd have your case....

Thoughts?

He didn’t even get max term for these guys after overpaying them big time. AAV is one thing but we also signed them straight to UFA.

My thoughts are he doesn’t deserve any more slack considering he created this mess in the first place and should be fired if they fall flat again this year.

 

[ACC1224]

Something that never gets talked about is that Babcock may have made the negotiations harder.

This is pure speculation, but I'd assume that Marner particularly was not happy playing under Babcock, so that may have driven up his ask or made the negotiations a little harder.

What?
That is easily in the top 5 Dubas excuses for the mess he's made.

 

[TGB]

One reason why I don't really blame Dubas too much for the contracts, even though I do believe caving to Nylander is what started this mess, is because his gamble about the increased TV contract proved to be entirely right: it tripled which would have resulted in a nice cap increase and given the Leafs the money they needed to add more talent.

But then the pandemic happened and NOBODY could have predicted that. Dubas gambled and lost mainly because of an entirely unforeseen world history altering event. You can't really blame him too hard for that. The only other option would be to not spend to the cap every season and then you guys would accuse him of being cheap. Either way, people would complain.

 

[ACC1224]

This is actually one of your best posts, congratulations, normally they are just filled with lies.



I never see it, but if you say so, there also is no mess, but alright.

You need to change your name.

 

[Buds17]

Something that never gets talked about is that Babcock may have made the negotiations harder.

This is pure speculation, but I'd assume that Marner particularly was not happy playing under Babcock, so that may have driven up his ask or made the negotiations a little harder.

I'd rather hope this wasn't true since it would appear that neither was selected in this either/or scenario as Babcock was fired not all that long after the big contracts were signed.

 

[banks]

The tax advantages that teams like Tampa can offer should be totally offset by the Leafs' ability to front load and give giant signing bonuses.

The money is worth a bit more when it comes as a lump on day 1.

 

[Throw More Waffles]

Let's say you're right. (I completely think you're wrong and millionaires have about a billion ways to avoid taxes even in Canada). But let's pretend you're right.

Let's pretend the leafs have to pay up to 20% more for their players due to taxes than many other teams.

Can I ask.... why are you a fan then? Why are any of us? What you're suggesting would make it impossible to succeed. An extra 20% in cap space is an OUTRAGEOUS advantage. One that likely can't be overcome.

So why are people buying tickets in such an unfair and rigged environment? Why is mlse even trying to win? Shouldn't they just pay to the cap basement and save money? Apparently everybody will buy tickets regardless.

So what's the point? If you genuinely believe the leafs are in this impossible situation, shouldn't we all just follow something else? Something that has a chance to succeed?

 

[Sypher04]

One reason why I don't really blame Dubas too much for the contracts, even though I do believe caving to Nylander is what started this mess, is because his gamble about the increased TV contract proved to be entirely right: it tripled which would have resulted in a nice cap increase and given the Leafs the money they needed to add more talent.

But then the pandemic happened and NOBODY could have predicted that. Dubas gambled and lost mainly because of an entirely unforeseen world history altering event. You can't really blame him too hard for that. The only other option would be to not spend to the cap every season and then you guys would accuse him of being cheap. Either way, people would complain.

I see this said around here constantly, but I still am left to say, what caving?

He held his position vs Nylander, Nylander sat out, and by both accounts it was Nylander's camp who phoned Dubas and Co at the last moments and said he wanted to make a deal. Nylander's ask was reportedly 8m, which was too high. Leafs wanted him in the mid 6s. They inevitably compromised. That's how negotiation works.

That's not caving. Nor is Nylander's contract in any way a bad one.

 

[Throw More Waffles]

The tax advantages that teams like Tampa can offer should be totally offset by the Leafs' ability to front load and give giant signing bonuses.

The money is worth a bit more when it comes as a lump on day 1.

To be fair, Tampa typically does that as well.

Endorsements are a legit argument though. As are rca's and numerous other ways players can avoid some taxes in Canada.

 

[Sypher04]

The tax advantages that teams like Tampa can offer should be totally offset by the Leafs' ability to front load and give giant signing bonuses.

The money is worth a bit more when it comes as a lump on day 1.

You'd think so but Tampa can also do those. That said, if I were ever personally tasked to design the system to have parity, I would absolutely abolish both.

We don't live in that world sadly, and we won't ever get it either.

 

[Sypher04]

To be fair, Tampa typically does that as well.

Endorsements are a legit argument though. As are rca's and numerous other ways players can avoid some taxes in Canada.

Endorsements are not a legit argument at all actually. They are money paid for other work being performed. They have precisely nothing to do with NHL pay

 

[Throw More Waffles]

I see this said around here constantly, but I still am left to say, what caving?

He held his position vs Nylander, Nylander sat out, and by both accounts it was Nylander's camp who phoned Dubas and Co at the last moments and said he wanted to make a deal. Nylander's ask was reportedly 8m, which was too high. Leafs wanted him in the mid 6s. They inevitably compromised. That's how negotiation works.

That's not caving. Nor is Nylander's contract in any way a bad one.

Based on what Pastrnak signed for the year prior, Nylander was significantly overpaid at time of signing. And that's how contracts are evaluated. The aav/term based on stats at time of signing. Not what you hope they become in the future. Or, that's how the good gm's do it anyways.

Reminder that Pasta paced for 38 goals/77 points his final elc year. Nylander 20 goals/60 points. Nylander is about the same cap percentage, far more front loaded, far more in signing bonuses, and one less ufa year. And Nylander pretty much lost an entire season due to the missing of camp and playing like ass for a season.

 

[Throw More Waffles]

Endorsements are not a legit argument at all actually. They are money paid for other work being performed. They have precisely nothing to do with NHL pay

"Sign in Tampa and you pay less taxes" = legitimate argument
"Sign in Toronto and you'll have the opportunity to make much more in endorsements than if you sign in another city" = illegitimate argument.

Interesting...

 

[Sypher04]

"Sign in Tampa and you pay less taxes" = legitimate argument
"Sign in Toronto and you'll have the opportunity to make much more in endorsements than if you sign in another city" = illegitimate argument.

Interesting...

Lol if you can't understand the difference between pay for your NHL work vs endorsement money from work that is more time and effort on the player's part, then I can't help you.

 

[Suntouchable13]

Something that never gets talked about is that Babcock may have made the negotiations harder.

This is pure speculation, but I'd assume that Marner particularly was not happy playing under Babcock, so that may have driven up his ask or made the negotiations a little harder.

That’s a BS excuse “Oh the coach is being mean to me! Pay me more money!” If that’s Matthews and Marner character, then we don’t need them

 

[Throw More Waffles]

Lol if you can't understand the difference between pay for your NHL work vs endorsement money from work that is more time and effort on the player's part, then I can't help you.

You have the opportunity to make many more millions in Toronto than most other cities due to endorsement deals. it should most certainly be part of the equation.

 

[Martin Skoula]

You have the opportunity to make many more millions in Toronto than most other cities due to endorsement deals. it should most certainly be part of the equation.

You have the opportunity to make billions in Vegas if you put your entire paycheque on the right slot of the roulette wheel. You have the opportunity to become a male model if you're a goalie in New York. That doesn't change the fact that these are extra opportunities that require time and effort to capitalize on, you require no additional time and effort to capitalize on making 20% more money in Tampa.

Should we also be taking the children's book market into account as a benefit for Toronto?