Compare the 2015-16 Jackets with the 2015-16 Rangers

[Crede777]

It should also be mentioned that I think Vigneault is a better systems coach than Richards is. So New York has that also going for them.

The Rangers won the President's trophy, so nobody is "as good" as they are at this moment. But I agree with Nick Foligno - we saw how good this team actually was at the end of the year.

 

[Xoggz22]

Count me in the camp with Crede. I don't get the JJ hate.

 

[NotWendell]

I think everybody has pretty much summed it up. Without a better blueline, our team has little chance of getting into the 2nd round of the playoffs - much less to where NYR are now.

 

[NotWendell]

Count me in the camp with Crede. I don't get the JJ hate.

I don't get the Tyutin hate.

 

[Double-Shift Lasse]

But I disagree that Johnson/Savard are the 3rd pairing in New York. Johnson easily displaces Staal on the 2nd pairing and while Girardi is at his peak, Savard is still on the upswing.

Count me in the camp with Crede. I don't get the JJ hate.

I specifically said in my post there were micro issues into which I could delve but I purposefully simplified my analysis. JJ-Savard as a pair don't see ice time above the top two pairs in NYR. I'm not splitting them for the purposes of my analysis. And if I did, I don't think people would agree with my take on Savard, judging from how I think he's pretty damn overrated.

I'm hardly hating on JJ.

 

[NotWendell]

And if I did, I don't think people would agree with my take on Savard, judging from how I think he's pretty damn overrated.

Savard is the new Wisniewski. Strong shot from the blueline with defensive blunders.

 

[Crede777]

I specifically said in my post there were micro issues into which I could delve but I purposefully simplified my analysis. JJ-Savard as a pair don't see ice time above the top two pairs in NYR. I'm not splitting them for the purposes of my analysis. And if I did, I don't think people would agree with my take on Savard, judging from how I think he's pretty damn overrated.

I'm hardly hating on JJ.

I don't think you're massively underrating Savard. I think you are overrating Staal and Girardi, though. Staal is closer to Prout than anything after his injuries.

 

[CBJx614]

On defense, prior to this season defense was our strong suit. It was widely considered that Johnson, Tyutin, Wisniewski, and Nikitin were quality top-4 guys while Savard, Murray, and Erixon were poised for breakout seasons. Nikitin was let go, Tyutin has declined, and Wisniewski either threw himself under the bus or was put there. I still maintain that Johnson is a top pairing guy due to his versatility and ability to log huge minutes. Say what you will about his "advanced stats" but according to management this was a very strong season for him. Savard has broken through and Murray was injured all the time.

While McDonagh is the best of the group, Johnson would be second ahead of Girardi, Staal, Yandle (same boat as Wisniewski), and Klein.

This doesn't even account for the "potential" of Murray to become a franchise defensemen like McDonagh. But I disagree that Johnson/Savard are the 3rd pairing in New York. Johnson easily displaces Staal on the 2nd pairing and while Girardi is at his peak, Savard is still on the upswing.

The difference in defense isn't as big as many seem to think.

i agree about the defense not being that far behind. The reason IMO the defense was considered a strong suit the past 2 seasons was because the team plays a really strong two way game. And well when the injuries started piling on we lost some of our best two way players (Jenner, Dubinsky, Horton) for an extended period of time that two way game went to hell as did Richards whole system from there.

 

[major major]

I think Dan Girardi is a damn valuable shutdown D... and I'll stand by my reasoned opinion that he's a better overall defender than any of our current D. No hate anywhere.

And don't forget about Keith Yandle, who could outscore any of our guys.

Yes JJ and Savard can outscore Girardi, and outdefend Yandle, but in this case I think that specialization is valuable in itself. Vigneault can just run Girardi out there in defensive situations to shut down JJ and Savard, and run Yandle out there in offensive situations to victimize them.

We run JJ-Savard out there in the hard minutes and they're not suited for it, not nearly as good as Girardi. They'd make a very good offensive second pair if we could ever find better players to slot them behind.

Kevin Klein is a rock, and Dan Boyle just added 10 pts to his career playoff total, now with 80 career playoff points. And Marc Staal is an overpaid shutdown guy, but he is still better in his own zone than Dalton Prout is.

 

[JacketsDavid]

The CBJ have really changed over 3 years especially the forwards. We use to struggle to get that 3rd goal on a nightly basis in regulation. We had to play a tough defensive style -that for most of the d-men fit. They didn't have to be great skaters, or good with the puck.
Now the forwards have developed and by and large we are becoming more of an offensive team - and to develop you need the d-men to skate a little better, make better passes, etc. But they still need to play D.
So at least in my mind a few years ago we could have a lot of one dimensional d-men (say 4 guys who did nothing offensively) but now we need guys who can play on both ends. That exposed us last year - few guys didn't develop as expected (injuries and development), few guys are one dimensional (Wiz was one dimensional offensively, but others are defensive d-men), and at times the entire team (not just d-men) were giving up way too many shots.
I still think JJ fits. I get the feeling we would like to move him, but given his contract and personal situation it's unlikely I would guess. But he is a guy when focused that can play on both ends.

 

[Xoggz22]

I specifically said in my post there were micro issues into which I could delve but I purposefully simplified my analysis. JJ-Savard as a pair don't see ice time above the top two pairs in NYR. I'm not splitting them for the purposes of my analysis. And if I did, I don't think people would agree with my take on Savard, judging from how I think he's pretty damn overrated.

I'm hardly hating on JJ.

DSL, I wasn't referring to you. However, most of what I interpret on these boards paint the picture of JJ as a 3rd line bum. I agree it would be nice to see less minutes out of JJ and Savard (wrote about that on Along the Boards) but, in my opinion, he would be on a second pair on any team in the NHL and a top pair guy on others. He has his faults but, at worst he's #3 on the rangers - and to be honest, I haven't been impressed with McDonaugh this playoffs.

Anyway, I agree we need an upgrade and certainly would give the edge to the Rangers on D but to have some say JJ and Savard are the 3rd pair on the Rangers is ludicrous in my opinion.

 

[EspenK]

DSL, I wasn't referring to you. However, most of what I interpret on these boards paint the picture of JJ as a 3rd line bum. I agree it would be nice to see less minutes out of JJ and Savard (wrote about that on Along the Boards) but, in my opinion, he would be on a second pair on any team in the NHL and a top pair guy on others. He has his faults but, at worst he's #3 on the rangers - and to be honest, I haven't been impressed with McDonaugh this playoffs.

Anyway, I agree we need an upgrade and certainly would give the edge to the Rangers on D but to have some say JJ and Savard are the 3rd pair on the Rangers is ludicrous in my opinion.

Neither have many Ranger fans. I agree JJ is best suited as a 2nd pair guy who can move up when needed to eat minutes.

 

[Viqsi]

While I pretty much agree with all the comments about the Rangers D being better than ours, Staal has really not looked good in the playoffs, save the first game. Based on these last handful of games I'd be hard pressed to say he is much better than Johnson. Lot of Ranger fans syaing he was better in the season but playoffs not so much. Add in his contract and I'd much rather have JJ.

You get a cookie.

* * *​

Their top line center is currently Brassard who we all saw was the 3rd best center here behind Johansen and Dubinsky. Wennberg next year will likely match the 40 points that Brassard achieved here.

Nash is better than any winger we have, but Foligno and Hartnell are better than any one else I can think of (St. Louis has declined and Kreider is a beast in the playoffs but lukewarm in the regular season. Hayes has been pretty good this season.)

On defense, prior to this season defense was our strong suit. It was widely considered that Johnson, Tyutin, Wisniewski, and Nikitin were quality top-4 guys while Savard, Murray, and Erixon were poised for breakout seasons. Nikitin was let go, Tyutin has declined, and Wisniewski either threw himself under the bus or was put there. I still maintain that Johnson is a top pairing guy due to his versatility and ability to log huge minutes. Say what you will about his "advanced stats" but according to management this was a very strong season for him. Savard has broken through and Murray was injured all the time.

While McDonagh is the best of the group, Johnson would be second ahead of Girardi, Staal, Yandle (same boat as Wisniewski), and Klein.

This doesn't even account for the "potential" of Murray to become a franchise defensemen like McDonagh. But I disagree that Johnson/Savard are the 3rd pairing in New York. Johnson easily displaces Staal on the 2nd pairing and while Girardi is at his peak, Savard is still on the upswing.

The difference in defense isn't as big as many seem to think.

I have to give the edge in goaltending to Hank and Talbot who are demonstrably better than the Bobrovsky / McElhinney tandem.

What it comes down to, to me, is that the NYR is the slightly better team when everyone is healthy.

But, this team didn't just underperform this season, it VASTLY underperformed. When somewhat healthy, we went 15-0. Now I don't think we will be undefeated, but it is certainly a team that can compete with anyone for the lead of the Metro next year.

You also get a cookie.

No, "everybody gets a cookie" does not follow from there. Sorry, y'all.

* * *​

I don't think you're massively underrating Savard. I think you are overrating Staal and Girardi, though. Staal is closer to Prout than anything after his injuries.

THIS. OMG this. So very this. Absofreakinglutely this. I'd be leveling accusations of grass-is-greener syndrome if it weren't for the fact that the folks suggesting otherwise aren't types I'm used to being prone to that sort of thing.

 

[Nordique]

The nyr were good this year. The cbj sucked this year. That's the comparison.

There you go, beyond that I don't put any thought or value into comparing these teams. Every team is unique, you can't view players or pairings or lines in a vacuum. The context of the team and style of play is always relevant.

 

[Double-Shift Lasse]

THIS. OMG this. So very this. Absofreakinglutely this. I'd be leveling accusations of grass-is-greener syndrome if it weren't for the fact that the folks suggesting otherwise aren't types I'm used to being prone to that sort of thing.

Apologies for messing with the notion that one's opinions should always be predictable and along the same line of thinking regardless of the topic.

It's funny that some are supporting their assessment so specifically on what a player looks like in these playoffs (sample size hello) or based on the non-consensus opinion of NYR forum posters.

 

[Viqsi]

Apologies for messing with the notion that one's opinions should always be predictable and along the same line of thinking regardless of the topic.

It's funny that some are supporting their assessment so specifically on what a player looks like in these playoffs (sample size hello) or based on the non-consensus opinion of NYR forum posters.

Apology temporarily accepted - temporary, because I may be obliged to offer it right back...

It's not so much these playoffs or forum posters as it is that I keep noticing the same trends that they're kvetching about.

 

[blahblah]

If Savard can build of his last 25 games or so and work on some things this off season...

From a tool perspective he's still taking a knife into a gun fight in transition and he makes some of the most idiotic decisions with the puck I've seen in the defensive and neutral zones.

Where that puts him in comparison with the Rangers I don't know, but I'm not even close to being sold he's a legit 1/2 in this league.

I trust Tyutin more. Johnson had a pretty nice last two months of the season; but he's a bit unpredictable. I thought Connauton tightened up things a bit the last two months. Still has to work on that defensive zone play, but he's a pretty dynamic player. Golo was a nice addition.

Having said that, the Rangers D, overall, is superior to ours. Not light years, but noticeably. As far as comments about vastly under performing; we certainly over performed down the stretch. We're not that good yet to sustain that elite level of pace over the course of a season. We're still pretty young in too many key positions.

 

[SuperGenius]

This is kind of like comparing a 20 year old with a 30 year old.

That's not to say they're 10 years apart. Rather, it is to say that each franchise is at different points in life. CBJ are growing, figuring things out and learning what it takes to compete on a nightly basis and make the playoffs. Rangers are more or less done percolating and ready to get after it with long cup runs.

Are the CBJ trending towards the Rangers? I don't know. They're probably closer to following the LAK path.

 

[BluejacketNut]

The D, as mentioned is the difference. If you look at all the teams in the conference finals, they all have stout defense. Our defense is a ways away, if they arent able to pickup up a top 4 dman, then Bob better not get injured, and the forwards better have Selke years. Savard is in no way a top pairing defensman, youre not going to go far in the playoffs with Johnson/Savard as your top pairing.

 

[EspenK]

This is kind of like comparing a 20 year old with a 30 year old.

That's not to say they're 10 years apart. Rather, it is to say that each franchise is at different points in life. CBJ are growing, figuring things out and learning what it takes to compete on a nightly basis and make the playoffs. Rangers are more or less done percolating and ready to get after it with long cup runs.

Are the CBJ trending towards the Rangers? I don't know. They're probably closer to following the LAK path.

What do you mean by that? In terms of style of play? Make-up of roster? More Western Conference than Eastern?

 

[stevo61]

What do you mean by that? In terms of style of play? Make-up of roster? More Western Conference than Eastern?

Im guessing lots of home grown talent to infuse into the lineup and also use to make trades to get over the hump while being able to have sustained success. Could be wrong but thats what i think when i see something like that

 

[stevo61]

Savard is the new Wisniewski. Strong shot from the blueline with defensive blunders.

With the difference being hes a 220lb 24 year old with less then 200 games in the NHL. Wiz is what he is and has been for the last few years, Savard is growing as a player and this is going to be another huge offseason for him

 

[1857 Howitzer]

Nether are going to win the cup this year, so there's that.