[COL, CAR, CHI] Rantanen-Hall to CAR, Necas-Drury-25 2nd-26 4th to COL, Chi 25 3rd to Chi (Ret 50% on Mikko)

[LOFIN]

Exactly! Necas drives play for the second line with speed. I don't remember Mikko doing this.

Two years is a long time, I grant you that.

I know I'm the lone guy in this thread who keeps on defending Mikko. But some of you people seriously need to pull your head out of your collective asses.

Facts:
- The Avs seem to be better off with Necas and Drury than Mikko for this season and beyond, both on the ice and off the ice
- Rantanen had become complacent, "lazy", and relied very much on MacKinnon on his scoring the last two seasons.

Fiction:
"Rantanen was never driving a line and play like Necas!"

f***ing BS. By advanced stats, he drove lines better than MacKinnon for an example in 2022 when we won the cup. I know people just want to remember the last version of Mikko that we saw, but let's cut the crap. Mikko was a dominant line-driver most of his career here. I really don't understand why some posters here have such a need for talking absolute bullshit about him and his legacy with the club. You can be happy about the trade, call it a win and even go ahead and call Necas the better player going forward (not going that far myself), but I can't stand the amount of disrespect for Mikko for what he did here.

End rant.

 

[flyfysher]

Two years is a long time, I grant you that.

I know I'm the lone guy in this thread who keeps on defending Mikko. But some of you people seriously need to pull your head out of your collective asses.

Facts:
- The Avs seem to be better off with Necas and Drury than Mikko for this season and beyond, both on the ice and off the ice
- Rantanen had become complacent, "lazy", and relied very much on MacKinnon on his scoring the last two seasons.

Fiction:
"Rantanen was never driving a line and play like Necas!"

f***ing BS. By advanced stats, he drove lines better than MacKinnon for an example in 2022 when we won the cup. I know people just want to remember the last version of Mikko that we saw, but let's cut the crap. Mikko was a dominant line-driver most of his career here. I really don't understand why some posters here have such a need for talking absolute bullshit about him and his legacy with the club. You can be happy about the trade, call it a win and even go ahead and call Necas the better player going forward (not going that far myself), but I can't stand the amount of disrespect for Mikko for what he did here.

End rant.

It’s sports. That means what have you done for me LATELY?

 

[LOFIN]

It’s sports. That means what have you done for me LATELY?

Nice way to miss the entire point of my post

 

[flyfysher]

Nice way to miss the entire point of my post

I didn’t miss your point but if you thought about it then you’d realize you just validated the entire rationale for trading Rants. Rants clearly wasn’t playing up to his proven abilities. Why? Yet he still wanted a raise for that diminished play. Or his agent did. That’s the real central point of this entire episode.

If you’re a real professional you develop and hone your skills to the maximum extent of your abilities. Even you can’t credibly assert Rants was doing that.

 

[LOFIN]

I didn’t miss your point but if you thought about it then you’d realize you just validated the entire rationale for trading Rants. Rants clearly wasn’t playing up to his proven abilities. Why? Yet he still wanted a raise for that diminished play. Or his agent did. That’s the real central point of this entire episode.

If you’re a real professional you develop and hone your skills to the maximum extent of your abilities. Even you can’t credibly assert Rants was doing that.

I was against trading Rantanen on the basis that a guy like Necas wasn't available. And I didn't think it would look as good with Necas for the Avs, and Rantanen hasn't been that great outside of the Avs either. I can admit I was wrong on this.

I'm just pissed off about some people trying to slander his 9 year tenure with the Avs. If it was just one person doing it, whatever. But seems like a big portion of HFAvs is actively trying to paint black to white when it comes to numbers and eyetest of what Rantanen was for the majority of his career with the team.

 

[The Abusement Park]

I didn’t miss your point but if you thought about it then you’d realize you just validated the entire rationale for trading Rants. Rants clearly wasn’t playing up to his proven abilities. Why? Yet he still wanted a raise for that diminished play. Or his agent did. That’s the real central point of this entire episode.

If you’re a real professional you develop and hone your skills to the maximum extent of your abilities. Even you can’t credibly assert Rants was doing that.

He literally says over the last couple seasons he wasn’t playing up to his full ability. That’s a fact.

But the dismissal of what Mikko did here prior to the last season and a half is quite frustrating… The dude was a huge part of this core winning a cup and was one of the best wingers in the league when he was here. Both things can be true.

 

[flyfysher]

I was against trading Rantanen on the basis that a guy like Necas wasn't available. And I didn't think it would look as good with Necas for the Avs, and Rantanen hasn't been that great outside of the Avs either. I can admit I was wrong on this.

I'm just pissed off about some people trying to slander his 9 year tenure with the Avs. If it was just one person doing it, whatever. But seems like a big portion of HFAvs is actively trying to paint black to white when it comes to numbers and eyetest of what Rantanen was for the majority of his career with the team.

It may seem that way but 1. The posters on here are pretty knowledgeable and informed; and 2. They won’t tolerate someone that they know has the ability especially based on performance but doesn’t develop and hone it. You see how demanding we are when it comes to performance. 3. We regularly deride Jost but that guy worked his ass off to be the best that he could be. Unfortunately he wasn’t as gifted as Mikko. If Rants had put in that same effort that Jost did even half the time since the Avs won their SC then he’d still be here today. I respect Rants for what he did for the Avs and appreciate your efforts to have a fair and balanced view.

Could he drive a line and be a playmaker? Based on what we saw in limited opportunities, yes. But he never did thereafter. I kinda wish the Canes and Stars would have tried him in that role. If he did that with any regularity then he’d definitely be worth a lot more than as $9-10M player.

 

[Balthazar]

Two years is a long time, I grant you that.

I know I'm the lone guy in this thread who keeps on defending Mikko. But some of you people seriously need to pull your head out of your collective asses.

Facts:
- The Avs seem to be better off with Necas and Drury than Mikko for this season and beyond, both on the ice and off the ice
- Rantanen had become complacent, "lazy", and relied very much on MacKinnon on his scoring the last two seasons.

Fiction:
"Rantanen was never driving a line and play like Necas!"

f***ing BS. By advanced stats, he drove lines better than MacKinnon for an example in 2022 when we won the cup. I know people just want to remember the last version of Mikko that we saw, but let's cut the crap. Mikko was a dominant line-driver most of his career here. I really don't understand why some posters here have such a need for talking absolute bullshit about him and his legacy with the club. You can be happy about the trade, call it a win and even go ahead and call Necas the better player going forward (not going that far myself), but I can't stand the amount of disrespect for Mikko for what he did here.

End rant.

Here's what I remember:

Once upon a time there was a Sabre fan on the main board named TheJackAttack. For some reason that guy was obsessed with Rantanen. He was posting all kinds of stats to prove that Rantanen was a product of Mackinnon. We're talking 2019-2020 era. Of course we all mocked him and considered him a troll because we are Avs fans.

Also when DNVR started (after the BSN era), one recurring point in their shows was joking about Rantanen finishing games with 3 or 4 points but somehow looking really bad on the ice. Again, we're talking several seasons ago.

So I'd say Rantanen didn't start last year to play like that. He always did. But we are fans...fans see what they want to see and remember what they want to remember.

 

[LOFIN]

Here's what I remember:

Once upon a time there was a Sabre fan on the main board named TheJackAttack. For some reason that guy was obsessed with Rantanen. He was posting all kinds of stats to prove that Rantanen was a product of Mackinnon. We're talking 2019-2020 era. Of course we all mocked him and considered him a troll because we are Avs fans.

Also when DNVR started (after the BSN era), one recurring point in their shows was joking about Rantanen finishing games with 3 or 4 points but somehow looking really bad on the ice. Again, we're talking several seasons ago.

So I'd say Rantanen didn't start last year to play like that. He always did. But we are fans...fans see what they want to see and remember what they want to remember.

Here's what I say: there are advanced stats that have Rantanen with better xGF and actual GF than MacKinnon separately for a few years before 2022, and in years where MacKinnon was better there was basically no separation. During the last two years, it has been like a 20% difference (for MacKinnon obviously).

Mikko has trended down in the last two years, also MacK has trended up, he has been better than McDavid for the last two years. There is a reason why frustration with Mikko has grown in the last two years, while arguably he was a top-3 winger and maybe a top-10 player in the game a few years ago.

 

[HockeyFan100]

The ONE GUY who had perfect chemistry with Matt Duchene. Oh well.

Mueller too... Duchene just gives bad luck I guess. The short lived Mueller-Duchene-Hejduk (I think?) line was a lot of fun

 

[CobraAcesS]

It may seem that way but 1. The posters on here are pretty knowledgeable and informed; and 2. They won’t tolerate someone that they know has the ability especially based on performance but doesn’t develop and hone it. You see how demanding we are when it comes to performance. 3. We regularly deride Jost but that guy worked his ass off to be the best that he could be. Unfortunately he wasn’t as gifted as Mikko. If Rants had put in that same effort that Jost did even half the time since the Avs won their SC then he’d still be here today. I respect Rants for what he did for the Avs and appreciate your efforts to have a fair and balanced view.

Could he drive a line and be a playmaker? Based on what we saw in limited opportunities, yes. But he never did thereafter. I kinda wish the Canes and Stars would have tried him in that role. If he did that with any regularity then he’d definitely be worth a lot more than as $9-10M player.

That's the thing.. on those teams, no matter what line he's on he's being paid to drive offense.

We could have paid him to be an elite complimentary winger, but we were not that stupid.

Unless he figures out how to get behind the wheel of the bus again. His contract will be bad.

 

[Foppa2118]

The part that I don't really understand about a lot of this Mikko conversation, is that it sounds like there's never been a supremely talented player that would rely on their talent, over their work ethic at times.

Like there aren't a bunch of all time greats that didn't have games where they would not play well, but then end up with multiple points because they're so talented.

That's what makes these players special. That they can pile up points even when they're not playing well, BECAUSE they're so talented. Then they have the ability to turn it up and play even better.

Every other player has off games and off seasons too, they just don't put up points when they do. That's what separates great from good players.

Alex Kovalev was one of the best and most talented players ever, and he drove coaches crazy, because of how much he floated on the ice.

Pavel Bure would stand at the offensive blueline and cherry pick all the time during games.

Ovechkin, the guy who's about to break the all time goals record, has literally hundreds of shifts in his career with a disconnected controller. Just kinda standing around, not backchecking, not forechecking, not doing anything but standing and waiting for the puck to come to him to one time.

Back in the day a lot of the best players would only work hard when they had the puck, and then not play defense at all.

And it's not like Mikko was always like this. We've seen him go beast mode a bit and battle hard in the corners, win puck battles, win battles in front of the net, take abuse to make passes, etc.

So all this crap he's taking is because he used to drive play more, used to battle more, and has maybe taken his foot off the gas a bit in the regular season for a couple years?

AFTER he helped the team win a Cup? And while he's STILL putting up 100+ point seasons? That's his sin?

And the last two seasons that he's being so harshly judged for, he had 42 goals, and 104 points, then this year he was on pace for 42 goals again, and 107 points. I mean come on. 99% of the league wishes they would play that bad.

Just feels like this narrative about Mikko in Colorado has gotten a little out of control IMO. He was an incredible player for the Avs. You can't leach your way to 55 goals and multiple 100+ point seasons. That's just an objective fact.

 

[expatriatedtexan]

The part that I don't really understand about a lot of this Mikko conversation, is that it sounds like there's never been a supremely talented player that would rely on their talent, over their work ethic at times.

Like there aren't a bunch of all time greats that didn't have games where they would not play well, but then end up with multiple points because they're so talented.

That's what makes these players special. That they can pile up points even when they're not playing well, BECAUSE they're so talented. Then they have the ability to turn it up and play even better.

Every other player has off games and off seasons too, they just don't put up points when they do. That's what separates great from good players.

Alex Kovalev was one of the best and most talented players ever, and he drove coaches crazy, because of how much he floated on the ice.

Pavel Bure would stand at the offensive blueline and cherry pick all the time during games.

Ovechkin, the guy who's about to break the all time goals record, has literally hundreds of shifts in his career with a disconnected controller. Just kinda standing around, not backchecking, not forechecking, not doing anything but standing and waiting for the puck to come to him to one time.

Back in the day a lot of the best players would only work hard when they had the puck, and then not play defense at all.

And it's not like Mikko was always like this. We've seen him go beast mode a bit and battle hard in the corners, win puck battles, win battles in front of the net, take abuse to make passes, etc.

So all this crap he's taking is because he used to drive play more, used to battle more, and has maybe taken his foot off the gas a bit in the regular season for a couple years?

AFTER he helped the team win a Cup? And while he's STILL putting up 100+ point seasons? That's his sin?

And the last two seasons that he's being so harshly judged for, he had 42 goals, and 104 points, then this year he was on pace for 42 goals again, and 107 points. I mean come on. 99% of the league wishes they would play that bad.

Just feels like this narrative about Mikko in Colorado has gotten a little out of control IMO. He was an incredible player for the Avs. You can't leach your way to 55 goals and multiple 100+ point seasons. That's just an objective fact.

I'd just like to point out that Alexei never asked for 14M a year.

I think this is where the true anger towards Mikko stemmed from. Him being an absolute bear to negotiate with the first time. Then him approaching the Avs with a request for more than MacKinnon makes. Look, I know MacK has said what other people make makes no difference to him except that he hopes they all make as much as they can. He's never going to be pissed at Mikko for his request or for the way things happened. It is as they say, a business after all.

However fans (at least myself) have a different look. They see the complete team. They worry about how the pieces will fit. They see the bind the team is in and then they hear Mikko is asking for mega-bank again.

How often did Kovalev reset the entire pay-structure of the NHL granting RFAs higher wages than UFAs? How often did Kovalev ask for more than money than Sergei Fedorov, Evgeni Malkin or Sasha Barkov?

I think what the most adamant Mikko supporters fail to see is that his negotiation "tactics" rubbed people completely the wrong way and did nothing to engratiate himself to us and in fact, ostricized himself further than than his lackluster play outside of the right faceoff dot or when a goalie is pulled already had.

 

[Foppa2118]

I'd just like to point out that Alexei never asked for 14M a year.

I think this is where the true anger towards Mikko stemmed from. Him being an absolute bear to negotiate with the first time. Then him approaching the Avs with a request for more than MacKinnon makes. Look, I know MacK has said what other people make makes no difference to him except that he hopes they all make as much as they can. He's never going to be pissed at Mikko for his request or for the way things happened. It is as they say, a business after all.

However fans (at least myself) have a different look. They see the complete team. They worry about how the pieces will fit. They see the bind the team is in and then they hear Mikko is asking for mega-bank again.

How often did Kovalev reset the entire pay-structure of the NHL granting RFAs higher wages than UFAs? How often did Kovalev ask for more than money than Sergei Fedorov, Evgeni Malkin or Sasha Barkov?

I think what the most adamant Mikko supporters fail to see is that his negotiation "tactics" rubbed people completely the wrong way and did nothing to engratiate himself to us and in fact, ostricized himself further than than his lackluster play outside of the right faceoff dot or when a goalie is pulled already had.

Personally, I don't think the $14M thing should even be brought up much. It was clearly just a negotiation starting point.

It's not like they wanted more than Draisaitl, and it's not like they would have started close to the number they were willing to accept. They probably started at $14, hoping to get what Nate got.

I don't see any reason not to believe Mikko when he said he didn't need more than Nate at $12.6M. He also told them he was flexible right before they traded him. He also signed for $12M.

I also don't think it's really fair to fault them for negotiating hard with the Avs. He's not the first player to do that either, and he never held out. The Avs are the hardest negotiator I've ever seen, outside of Bettman during the lockout. I don't see why Mikko gets flak for negotiating hard, but the Avs don't.

There were articles talking about how their captain was very frustrated at negotiations with the Avs and that he wasn't signed yet, and they played hardball with him up until literally hours before FA. You have to play hardball against a hardball negotiator, or you'll get taken advantage of.

I don't think we can really compare salaries in the non cap era to the cap era. Maybe players like Kovalev or Bure wouldn't have wanted $12M. But if they were putting up 50+ goals and multiple 100+ point seasons in this era, maybe they would have.

And if they wanted $11M or so instead of $12M, does it really make much difference? I don't think it does in this context, and $11-12M might not be so uncommon in a couple years. Chychrun just got $9M. Is Mikko Rantanen only $1M better than Jacob Chyrchrun? I don't think so.

 

[LOFIN]

I'd just like to point out that Alexei never asked for 14M a year.

I think this is where the true anger towards Mikko stemmed from. Him being an absolute bear to negotiate with the first time. Then him approaching the Avs with a request for more than MacKinnon makes. Look, I know MacK has said what other people make makes no difference to him except that he hopes they all make as much as they can. He's never going to be pissed at Mikko for his request or for the way things happened. It is as they say, a business after all.

However fans (at least myself) have a different look. They see the complete team. They worry about how the pieces will fit. They see the bind the team is in and then they hear Mikko is asking for mega-bank again.

How often did Kovalev reset the entire pay-structure of the NHL granting RFAs higher wages than UFAs? How often did Kovalev ask for more than money than Sergei Fedorov, Evgeni Malkin or Sasha Barkov?

I think what the most adamant Mikko supporters fail to see is that his negotiation "tactics" rubbed people completely the wrong way and did nothing to engratiate himself to us and in fact, ostricized himself further than than his lackluster play outside of the right faceoff dot or when a goalie is pulled already had.

I probably can make a more detailed answer tomorrow. But if someone is upset about what mikko was asking for, that is just completely out of touch which what how the business of hockey works in this cap era. And failing to understand basic economic concepts, like inflation. By that logic, MacKinnon in grossly overpaid because he makes 3M more than Makar.

 

[Alienblood]

Let's justt be glad Mikko.is gone. He's terrible.aithout Mack , meanwhile Necas is a damn star.

 

[expatriatedtexan]

I don't know. It sounds like we're just based in a different mindsets. It sounds a bit like y'all are pulling for Mikko as a fan of Mikko; where I'm solely pulling for the Avs here. As a fan, I'm solely about the team. I do have favorite players, there are players I like, players I don't and everything in between. Most of my favorite players are actually of the 3rd line variety (love me some meat and potatoes, north-south hockey with a bit of an edge) but the thing I prize above everything else is a player that wants to be here.

Mikko's priorities simply lied along a different path. I hold no ill will towards him. But much like Matt Duchene and Radar O'Reilly, he's no longer a part of the team anymore. I don't understand why he keeps getting brought up again and again. I can see it during a GDT when we play the Stars...

Meh, anyways, this is my last post on Mikko outside of those GDTs.

I don't expect either of y'all to agree with me. I'm not trying to change your minds; rather, I was just trying to explain my pov enough that you could understand where I was coming from at least.

 

[Foppa2118]

I don't know. It sounds like we're just based in a different mindsets. It sounds a bit like y'all are pulling for Mikko as a fan of Mikko; where I'm solely pulling for the Avs here. As a fan, I'm solely about the team. I do have favorite players, there are players I like, players I don't and everything in between. Most of my favorite players are actually of the 3rd line variety (love me some meat and potatoes, north-south hockey with a bit of an edge) but the thing I prize above everything else is a player that wants to be here.

Mikko's priorities simply lied along a different path. I hold no ill will towards him. But much like Matt Duchene and Radar O'Reilly, he's no longer a part of the team anymore. I don't understand why he keeps getting brought up again and again. I can see it during a GDT when we play the Stars...

Meh, anyways, this is my last post on Mikko outside of those GDTs.

I don't expect either of y'all to agree with me. I'm not trying to change your minds; rather, I was just trying to explain my pov enough that you could understand where I was coming from at least.

It's actually not about Mikko for me. I liked him as a player, but there were other players on the team I'm bigger fans of.

I'm also not upset at all about the trade, and if he continues playing poorly, it'll be too bad to see him continue to get beat up on, but I won't lose sleep over it. Especially if it comes with the Avs beating Dallas.

I just very much disagree with a lot of the commentary about Mikko. I think the lazy narrative was a bit exaggerated to begin with, though was understandable, but that narrative has driven a lot of confirmation bias afterwards in conversation about how he's overrated and a product of MacKinnon.

Like other similar conversations I've had in the past about EJ, or Byram, or Kadri, I only start talking about them when I've seen hundreds of posts I disagree with, specific things are said that I think are objectively incorrect, and my personal opinion is that the narrative has gotten a little out of control, and very few if any are making points to the contrary. Like many places on the internet, this place can turn into a bit of an echo chamber at times, that could use different points of view, and that has led to people believing multiple things that eventually got proven wrong.

I'm not directing this at you or anyone else, but it just feels like lot of people have been rooting for him to fail since the trade. That part kinda bothers me a bit after everything he did for the team and us as fans for 10 years. I understand others are upset at him though and that's ok too.

 

[expatriatedtexan]

It's actually not about Mikko for me. I liked him as a player, but there were other players on the team I'm bigger fans of.

I'm also not upset at all about the trade, and if he continues playing poorly, it'll be too bad to see him continue to get beat up on, but I won't lose sleep over it. Especially if it comes with the Avs beating Dallas.

I just very much disagree with a lot of the commentary about Mikko. I think the lazy narrative was a bit exaggerated to begin with, though was understandable, but that narrative has driven a lot of confirmation bias afterwards in conversation about how he's overrated and a product of MacKinnon.

Like other similar conversations I've had in the past about EJ, or Byram, or Kadri, I only start talking about them when I've seen hundreds of posts I disagree with, and my personal opinion is that the narrative has gotten a little out of control, and very few if any are making points to the contrary. Like many places on the internet, this place can turn into a bit of an echo chamber at times, that could use different points of view, and that has led to people believing multiple things that eventually got proven wrong.

I'm not directing this at you or anyone else, but it just feels like lot of people have been rooting for him to fail since the trade. That part kinda bothers me a bit after everything he did for the team and us as fans for 10 years. I understand others are upset at him though and that's ok too.

Oh, he wasn't a product of MacKinnon... but both Nate and Cale are what the military would call force multipliers.

 

[Foppa2118]

Oh, he wasn't a product of MacKinnon... but both Nate and Cale are what the military would call force multipliers.

Are you sure you don't like Moser? He said this about 10 times the other game.

 

[expatriatedtexan]

Are you sure you don't like Marc Moser? He said this about 10 times the other game.

I actually started a thing this year where I'm watching the other team's feed of every game I can instead. I'm doing this to learn more about the other teams in the league because I feel like simply following the Avs (which is a full time job) simply hasn't allowed me enough time to really follow the rest of the league in general.

I feel bad now though. I deserve to feel bad. Moser had the same thought as me, and thats really causing me some serious anxiety right now.

 

[John Mandalorian]

Why do so many people need to trash Mikko to praise Necas. It’s a little grotesque.

 

[expatriatedtexan]

Why do so many people need to trash Mikko to praise Necas. It’s a little grotesque.

Both are very good players but both are very different players. If we didn't have a salary cap, I'd ask.... Why not both?

 

[Bonzai12]

Is Necas a better fit on this team than Mikko was? I mean if you take away the players names/personality and just look at their skills. A sniper vs a puck handling wing.

 

[a mangy Meowth]

Why do so many people need to trash Mikko to praise Necas. It’s a little grotesque.

Yeah, exactly! Rantanen's game these days is grotesque enough on its own merit.