Confirmed Trade: [COL/BUF] Casey Mittelstadt for Bowen Byram

[Panthaz89]

Thompson is a better goal scorer than Casey ... but that's about it.

Thompson and Cozens are both better than Casey at PK by a mile but whatever floats your boat. I was one of the first to say Casey was getting shafted playing on the 3rd line last year but now some Sabres fans love to toss our other two centers in the trash after one disappointing season and Cozens is still young. Thompson is miles better than either as a weapon on the PP.

Both have put out much higher peaks than Mitts already.

 

[Sabresfansince1980]

It's as If we traded him for someone who has already proven himself and already had pretty good playoff run in a Stanley cup run but sure let's pretend we just gave him away....

Byram has proven that he's got a lot of talent and had A great run in the playoffs a couple years ago. Not taking that away at all. But what really counts for the Sabres is what type of player he is right now and can develop into. Right now he doesn't fit well and is a major question mark in his own zone. He had the idea that he was being held back in ice time and role in Col, yet he'll still be behind Dahlin and Power in Buffalo, still need a defensive safety net to pair with...which Buffalo already lacks and needs more of.

So no KA didn't "give him away", he just traded a player they needed more of for a player they needed less of. Not sensical, as usual.

 

[IWantSakicAsMyGM]

Landy took a huge one. Makar makes less than Seth Jones and your crappy player Nurse. Lex makes $4.75mm. He’s elite. Nuke makes $6mm and he’s amazing.

Most of them take discounts. Rants is paid $2mm less than Marner.

I agree that Landy probably could have gotten more as a UFA, but I struggle to call the rest of them "discounts".

Makar signed his current deal in 2021, coming off his ELC after playing 101 regular season games and 35 playoff games. A - Comparing his 2nd contract to UFA contracts signed by Jones and Nurse isn't apples to apples. B - it was 2021, so he had no hardware yet and was negotiating mostly based on potential. Yes, he has outplayed it and there was always a good chance he could, but from a contract negotiation standpoint, it seemed pretty fair at the time.

Lehk and Nuke both signed in 2022. Despite scoring the Cup winning goal, Lehk had a career high of 38 points to that point of his career, and was mostly a 3rd liner. Nuke had just finished his first career season with more than 35 points. Again, they've both outplayed those contracts, but I'm not seeing much of a discount at the time they were signed.

And Rantanen didn't have a case to be paid as much as Marner. In 2019, Marner was coming off a 94 point season where he was 11th in scoring, 4th in assists, got Selke votes, and led the team in scoring, playing mostly with Tavares and Hyman. Rantanen played with MacKinnon and Landeskog, didn't lead the team in scoring, and wasn't top 5 in any category, nor was he getting Selke votes.

 

[Eltuna]

I agree that Landy probably could have gotten more as a UFA, but I struggle to call the rest of them "discounts".

Makar signed his current deal in 2021, coming off his ELC after playing 101 regular season games and 35 playoff games. A - Comparing his 2nd contract to UFA contracts signed by Jones and Nurse isn't apples to apples. B - it was 2021, so he had no hardware yet and was negotiating mostly based on potential. Yes, he has outplayed it and there was always a good chance he could, but from a contract negotiation standpoint, it seemed pretty fair at the time.

Lehk and Nuke both signed in 2022. Despite scoring the Cup winning goal, Lehk had a career high of 38 points to that point of his career, and was mostly a 3rd liner. Nuke had just finished his first career season with more than 35 points. Again, they've both outplayed those contracts, but I'm not seeing much of a discount at the time they were signed.

And Rantanen didn't have a case to be paid as much as Marner. In 2019, Marner was coming off a 94 point season where he was 11th in scoring, 4th in assists, got Selke votes, and led the team in scoring, playing mostly with Tavares and Hyman. Rantanen played with MacKinnon and Landeskog, didn't lead the team in scoring, and wasn't top 5 in any category, nor was he getting Selke votes.

Makar was not potential when he signed, he had already won the Calder and was second in Norris voting (only losing due to games played) prior to signing. He was already considered the best defenceman in the league at the time. He definitely could have gotten more, probably around 1.5M more, if him and his agent pressed. The rumour was he asked for 11M over 5 years but then decided to take less after talking to Sakic, similar to the McDavid contract situation when he signed.

Rantanen should have come in slightly less than Marner but no way the difference was 18% & some additional trade protection for the same number of years. 5-10% would have been much more reasonable, Avs definitively got a deal on him

 

[IWantSakicAsMyGM]

Makar was not potential when he signed, he had already won the Calder and was second in Norris voting (only losing due to games played) prior to signing. He was already considered the best defenceman in the league at the time. He definitely could have gotten more, probably around 1.5M more, if him and his agent pressed. The rumour was he asked for 11M over 5 years but then decided to take less after talking to Sakic, similar to the McDavid contract situation when he signed.

Rantanen should have come in slightly less than Marner but no way the difference was 18% & some additional trade protection for the same number of years. 5-10% would have been much more reasonable, Avs definitively got a deal on him

I agree that Makar was already showing he is the best in the league, but when it comes to contract negotiations, there's still a difference between finishing 2nd in Norris voting and actually winning it. He was still only a potential Norris winner. He was also *only* 0.93 PPG over those first 101 games, and was still behind Carlsson in PPG, so he was also still a potential PPG defenseman and potentially the highest scoring D.

As for Rantanen/Marner, from a negotiation standpoint, I think there's a pretty significant difference between leading the Leafs in scoring and finishing 4th in the NHL in assists while playing with Tavares and Hyman, and being one of MacKinnon's wingers on the best line in hockey. Marner using that leverage as his team's leading scorer to get more than he probably should doesn't change the fact that I think Rantanen was paid very fairly for what he had done up to that point on Mack's wing and getting paid fairly isn't a discount.

 

[majormajor]

I agree that Makar was already showing he is the best in the league, but when it comes to contract negotiations, there's still a difference between finishing 2nd in Norris voting and actually winning it. He was still only a potential Norris winner. He was also *only* 0.93 PPG over those first 101 games, and was still behind Carlsson in PPG, so he was also still a potential PPG defenseman and potentially the highest scoring D.

I don't agree at all, everyone knew Makar was the best D in the league, I don't think anyone was thinking about hardware.

 

[Eltuna]

I agree that Makar was already showing he is the best in the league, but when it comes to contract negotiations, there's still a difference between finishing 2nd in Norris voting and actually winning it. He was still only a potential Norris winner. He was also *only* 0.93 PPG over those first 101 games, and was still behind Carlsson in PPG, so he was also still a potential PPG defenseman and potentially the highest scoring D.

As for Rantanen/Marner, from a negotiation standpoint, I think there's a pretty significant difference between leading the Leafs in scoring and finishing 4th in the NHL in assists while playing with Tavares and Hyman, and being one of MacKinnon's wingers on the best line in hockey. Marner using that leverage as his team's leading scorer to get more than he probably should doesn't change the fact that I think Rantanen was paid very fairly for what he had done up to that point on Mack's wing and getting paid fairly isn't a discount.

Might just need to agree to disagree on this one, calling Makar potential when he placed second in Norris voting having only played 80% of the year is a pretty massive stretch, he would have won without question if he played more games, even with playing 80% of the season it was still one of the closest votes in history.

Also big time disagreement on Rantanen vs Marner, after the playoffs finished that year they were probably the two most comparable players in the entire league, Marner better RS and Rantanen better in playoffs. Whatever the difference was it was definitely not 18% between them

 

[IWantSakicAsMyGM]

Might just need to agree to disagree on this one, calling Makar potential when he placed second in Norris voting having only played 80% of the year is a pretty massive stretch, he would have won without question if he played more games, even with playing 80% of the season it was still one of the closest votes in history.

Also big time disagreement on Rantanen vs Marner, after the playoffs finished that year they were probably the two most comparable players in the entire league, Marner better RS and Rantanen better in playoffs. Whatever the difference was it was definitely not 18% between them

I'm not calling Makar potential. I'm saying that when his agent was negotiating his 2nd contract, he was still a potential Norris trophy winner, seeing how it hadn't actually happened yet. The fact that "he would have won without question if he played more games" doesn't mean it actually happened, right? What word should I use to describe something that hasn't happened yet, but seems likely, if not "potential"?

I'd also point out that Makar's contract was the highest AAV any defenseman had ever gotten on their 2nd contract, which makes calling it a "discount" even more difficult for me to accept. Maybe he could have made things contentious and held out to demand more, but that doesn't mean he didn't get a fair market deal.

And I agree that Rantanen and Marner are very comparable players in terms of impact on the ice. But when it comes to contract negotiations, how much of a premium is leading your team in scoring worth? Or finishing top 5 in the league in any important statistical category (like assists)? On the other side, what's Toronto's case that Marner is worth much less than what they just gave Matthews? To me, the biggest difference in their cap hits is that Marner had a lot more ammo to ask for an overpayment, which he ultimately got.

 

[GirardSpinorama]

I'm not calling Makar potential. I'm saying that when his agent was negotiating his 2nd contract, he was still a potential Norris trophy winner, seeing how it hadn't actually happened yet. The fact that "he would have won without question if he played more games" doesn't mean it actually happened, right? What word should I use to describe something that hasn't happened yet, but seems likely, if not "potential"?

I'd also point out that Makar's contract was the highest AAV any defenseman had ever gotten on their 2nd contract, which makes calling it a "discount" even more difficult for me to accept. Maybe he could have made things contentious and held out to demand more, but that doesn't mean he didn't get a fair market deal.

And I agree that Rantanen and Marner are very comparable players in terms of impact on the ice. But when it comes to contract negotiations, how much of a premium is leading your team in scoring worth? Or finishing top 5 in the league in any important statistical category (like assists)? On the other side, what's Toronto's case that Marner is worth much less than what they just gave Matthews? To me, the biggest difference in their cap hits is that Marner had a lot more ammo to ask for an overpayment, which he ultimately got.

Marner just had an easier GM to deal with who got bent over by the pressure of the media and agents.

 

[IWantSakicAsMyGM]

Marner just had an easier GM to deal with who got bent over by the pressure of the media and agents.

Dubas definitely made some interesting decisions, which absolutely played into Marner getting the overpayment he asked for.

But, I still think 6 years at $9.25m was fair market value for a top line RW coming off his ELC in 2019, and not a discount. If you look at what other top line wings were getting, and not just Marner's overpayment, he's pretty much in line with where he should have been on a 2nd contract.

 

[Satanphonehome]

I know goals are not the be-all-and-end-all.
But Casey Mittelstadt has 66 of them in 357 NHL games.
Tage Thompson has 113 in the past three years.

 

[AslanRH]

I know goals are not the be-all-and-end-all.
But Casey Mittelstadt has 66 of them in 357 NHL games.
Tage Thompson has 113 in the past three years.

but Tage only had 56 in 222 when he signed his big contract.

 

[tsujimoto74]

but Tage only had 56 in 222 when he signed his big contract.

38 of them in the season before he negotiated his extension. I’m not sure if Mitts will ever score 30 in a single season. He still hasn’t hit even 20. Mitts is above average at a lot of things, but he doesn’t have any one elite skill that pops like Tage’s goal scoring does.

 

[lionsDen]

38 of them in the season before he negotiated his extension. I’m not sure if Mitts will ever score 30 in a single season. He still hasn’t hit even 20. Mitts is above average at a lot of things, but he doesn’t have any one elite skill that pops like Tage’s goal scoring does.

I’d argue his hockey IQ, passing. Are elite. His defense is arguably a strong asset. If he can set up goals like we’ve seen him scoring 30 isn’t needed. He’s been really good this playoffs. I don’t have any reference to how he played in buffalo, but I can see why yall like him so much

 

[AslanRH]

38 of them in the season before he negotiated his extension. I’m not sure if Mitts will ever score 30 in a single season. He still hasn’t hit even 20. Mitts is above average at a lot of things, but he doesn’t have any one elite skill that pops like Tage’s goal scoring does.

Oh, I don't disagree, I just think Mitts has an equivalent value with his all around game.
Those who think Mitts would make significantly less than TT are in for a surprise.
If the Avs can get similar term for Mitts at 8% of the cap (TT was 8.6%) it should be seen as a win. if they can get him at 6.5% it would be a near steal.

 

[Freaky Styley]

I agree that Landy probably could have gotten more as a UFA, but I struggle to call the rest of them "discounts".

Makar signed his current deal in 2021, coming off his ELC after playing 101 regular season games and 35 playoff games. A - Comparing his 2nd contract to UFA contracts signed by Jones and Nurse isn't apples to apples. B - it was 2021, so he had no hardware yet and was negotiating mostly based on potential. Yes, he has outplayed it and there was always a good chance he could, but from a contract negotiation standpoint, it seemed pretty fair at the time.

Lehk and Nuke both signed in 2022. Despite scoring the Cup winning goal, Lehk had a career high of 38 points to that point of his career, and was mostly a 3rd liner. Nuke had just finished his first career season with more than 35 points. Again, they've both outplayed those contracts, but I'm not seeing much of a discount at the time they were signed.

And Rantanen didn't have a case to be paid as much as Marner. In 2019, Marner was coming off a 94 point season where he was 11th in scoring, 4th in assists, got Selke votes, and led the team in scoring, playing mostly with Tavares and Hyman. Rantanen played with MacKinnon and Landeskog, didn't lead the team in scoring, and wasn't top 5 in any category, nor was he getting Selke votes.

Main difference in most of these cases is that the Avs signed guys before they were proven winners and didn't pay them a premium like they had already shown they could win (i.e. Marner)

MacKinnon's discount was the biggest - but he was coming off an injury hampered season (of which I always saw as a blessing in disguise) and he broke out the next year. The rest were pretty much market value, maybe Makar and Landeskog could have squeezed out an extra 1M but that's the benefit of having a great team culture that players don't want to leave. And yes, both Sakic and McFarland are savvy negotiators. But as far as advantages with the cap goes that still goes to Florida teams and Vegas for their state tax far more than any of these factors.

If we are talking the Leafs specifically, yes they have been a poorly constructed cap team since Marner's extension, it's their most obvious flaw that has not been addressed. They won't win anything until it is and they allocate more $ to bolstering their blueline.

 

[Nikolajs Sillers]

First I didn't like that trade by Buffalo, then I liked it for a few games and now I again don't like that trade

 

[randywoodsghost]

Casey is a solid player but how many Sabres would also be 6th in scoring on the Avalanche this post season?

Pump the brakes folks.

 

[Muffin]

Casey is a solid player but how many Sabres would also be 6th in scoring on the Avalanche this post season?

Pump the brakes folks.

I think most people are more impressed with his defensive play and board battles. We all know he can put up points.

 

[BKarchitect]

There's no reason to step into some CM vs TT vs DC debate here because the latter two weren't on the table. The guy who was is an RFA this summer. The other two are locked into long-term deals in Buffalo through 2030.

Casey has been great, no doubt, but he's gonna look a lot less "bargain-y" by this fall and the Sabres only have so much they can allocate towards the centers they want to build around.

Although...I say that then look at their roster of offensive left-hand shot defensemen and think...maybe they could've just done a roster completely made up of centers and LHD

 

[Chainshot]

There's no reason to step into some CM vs TT vs DC debate here because the latter two weren't on the table. The guy who was is an RFA this summer. The other two are locked into long-term deals in Buffalo through 2030.

Casey has been great, no doubt, but he's gonna look a lot less "bargain-y" by this fall and the Sabres only have so much they can allocate towards the centers they want to build around.

Although...I say that then look at their roster of offensive left-hand shot defensemen and think...maybe they could've just done a roster completely made up of centers and LHD

Adams has turned Botterill's notes upside down and instead of hoarding RHD, he's hoarding LHD.

 

[randywoodsghost]

I think most people are more impressed with his defensive play and board battles. We all know he can put up points.

If he is that good defensively, why aren’t they using him on the PK?

Again, not saying he isn’t a solid player but a lot of the stats don’t back up what people are saying about him.

 

[BKarchitect]

If he is that good defensively, why aren’t they using him on the PK?

Again, not saying he isn’t a solid player but a lot of the stats don’t back up what people are saying about him.

Because PK and “being good defensively” aren’t even remotely the same concepts.

 

[Muffin]

If he is that good defensively, why aren’t they using him on the PK?

Again, not saying he isn’t a solid player but a lot of the stats don’t back up what people are saying about him.

What stats aren’t backing up what we’re saying? He’s been eating up whatever line he plays against.

 

[AslanRH]

If he is that good defensively, why aren’t they using him on the PK?

I'm assuming this is a serious inquiry so I will try to give a serious answer.
Avs have PK guys that need ice time which allows CM to provide his services at 5v5 where he may also provide offense the other guys may not.