Coalition continues to push for end of Native American nicknames/symbols used in sport

[LadyStanley]

As NFL Draft rolls into Kansas City, activists continue push to rid sports of Native American imagery: 'This is by no means over'

The Chiefs and many of their fans are steadfast. One protester says she is frequently outside of Arrowhead Stadium before games, often verbally abused by passersby and told to "go home."

sports.yahoo.com

This week, the coalition is targeting NFL Kansas City Chiefs. The MLB Atlanta Braves also.

While the team may have banned headdress and war paint, the fans outside the NFL stadium still do. NFL Kansas City ownership has never met with coalition.

Click to read more...

 

[Drytoast]

I think it's stupid I don't think this needs any attention.

It's a cheap grab hunting for virtue points I hate it

 

[BigBadBruins7708]

Yup, nothing says equality like erasing all mentions and representations of a minority group...

 

[Fatass]

Clearly Redskins was a terrible name and Indians are from India, and not America. So both those names needed changing. But these other names seem fine. They honour aboriginal heritage.

 

[GindyDraws]

They tried doing that with the Indianapolis Indians but the team grew tired of them and opted instead to work with the Miami Tribe of Indiana (who have tried for decades to be federally recognized to no success), to which the lady who led the opposition went "they aren't official, lmao!"

Look, I'll be blunt; this is a hockey forum, and I know that it has far more conservative members on here than I normally would hang around with since I'm unapologetically leftist but I'm tired of this debate. The people who want to get rid of the mascots don't really offer solutions or ignore listening to local communities, instead going about how they know better than them bumpkins, while the supporters argue exclusively from a traditional point of view that refuses to budge from the march of time or the reality that cultural attitudes change and hijack the debate as part of greater crusade against the "woke" agenda. But it's America and we have long been conditioned to the role of duality.

 

[joelef]

I’m guessing they don’t have problem with Irish nicknames

 

[BigBadBruins7708]

They tried doing that with the Indianapolis Indians but the team grew tired of them and opted instead to work with the Miami Tribe of Indiana (who have tried for decades to be federally recognized to no success), to which the lady who led the opposition went "they aren't official, lmao!"

Look, I'll be blunt; this is a hockey forum, and I know that it has far more conservative members on here than I normally would hang around with since I'm unapologetically leftist but I'm tired of this debate. The people who want to get rid of the mascots don't really offer solutions or ignore listening to local communities, instead going about how they know better than them bumpkins, while the supporters argue exclusively from a traditional point of view that refuses to budge from the march of time or the reality that cultural attitudes change and hijack the debate as part of greater crusade against the "woke" agenda. But it's America and we have long been conditioned to the role of duality.

It's like when they try to go after Florida State over the war chant, Chief Osceola, flaming spear, etc. Surprise, the school has a relationship with the Seminole tribe, works with them on each of those aspects and gets approval from them. In addition to 70+ years of supporting and working with the Seminoles

Florida State University

FSU, designated a preeminent university in the state of Florida, is one of the most respected research and learning institutions in the country.

unicomm.fsu.edu

 

[No Fun Shogun]

I'm honestly more surprised that there hasn't been a bigger push against the Blackhawks now that Chicago's the last major professional team still featuring the image of a Native American as a logo, the probably no longer acceptable to term as an "Indian head."

I have little to no doubt that our logo will probably be gone in the next decade or two, but I'm doubting that there'll be more name changes going forward. "Chiefs" is inherently generic and the logo is just an arrowhead and not really limited to any singular culture, so movement against them is unlikely to me. Especially as KC is in a much more conservative area. "Braves" is exclusively a reference to Native American warriors, and same with tomahawk iconography, so there might be more pushback there, but again it's at the point where it is likely too generic to really expect more push back. And oddly enough with the Blackhawks, they probably have the safest name as there isn't a Blackhawk tribe and all they'd really need to do is more heavily emphasize an avian connection to a black hawk bird instead.

And we're already at the point where the Golden State Warriors is basically forgotten as having a Native American connection.

Collegiate is more interesting to me. Utah and Illinois have both gotten rid of all but the most ancillary of connections logo-wise, and that basically leaves San Diego State and especially Florida State as NCAA targets, although the Seminoles relationship with the tribe is a major protection that the university has cultivated.

 

[GKJ]

I'm honestly more surprised that there hasn't been a bigger push against the Blackhawks now that Chicago's the last major professional team still featuring the image of a Native American as a logo, the probably no longer acceptable to term as an "Indian head."

I have little to no doubt that our logo will probably be gone in the next decade or two, but I'm doubting that there'll be more name changes going forward. "Chiefs" is inherently generic and the logo is just an arrowhead and not really limited to any singular culture, so movement against them is unlikely to me. Especially as KC is in a much more conservative area. "Braves" is exclusively a reference to Native American warriors, and same with tomahawk iconography, so there might be more pushback there, but again it's at the point where it is likely too generic to really expect more push back. And oddly enough with the Blackhawks, they probably have the safest name as there isn't a Blackhawk tribe and all they'd really need to do is more heavily emphasize an avian connection to a black hawk bird instead.

And we're already at the point where the Golden State Warriors is basically forgotten as having a Native American connection.

Collegiate is more interesting to me. Utah and Illinois have both gotten rid of all but the most ancillary of connections logo-wise, and that basically leaves San Diego State and especially Florida State as NCAA targets, although the Seminoles relationship with the tribe is a major protection that the university has cultivated.

Blackhawks have the easiest one to change, too.

 

[LadyStanley]

@No Fun Shogun Stanford changed their nickname decades ago.

 

[KevFu]

I was just listening to a podcast with Hari Kondabolu and Hank Azaria about Apu on the Simpsons and that controversy, and a lot of that seems apt here.

That was more about representation in media, but "the problem with Apu" (pun intended) and how it pertains to sports is the caricature and cultural appropriation. Using charicatures of PEOPLE as a mascot.

And any "oh, PC or woke stuff, let it go" is dumb. "it's our teams tradition!" Yeah, it was THEIR tradition FIRST, and it's also THEIR identity that you don't have a right to, unless you're a tribe member.

Atlanta actually has the easiest rebrand on the table sitting right there. And they need to use it, because their franchise started as the Braves in Boston, so it's not a tribute to the local tribes native to Atlanta.

The Atlanta Hammers, honoring Hank Aaron, with a hammer replacing the tomahawk in their logo is really, really easy. Borderline unnoticable. And they should have done it BEFORE Hank Aaron died.

 

[ponder719]

Absurdly easy, incredibly classy, honoring one of the classiest and most talented men to ever play the game. That's as much of a no-brainer rebrand as exists in sports, and I hope that someday they do it.

 

[DoyleG]

As NFL Draft rolls into Kansas City, activists continue push to rid sports of Native American imagery: 'This is by no means over'

The Chiefs and many of their fans are steadfast. One protester says she is frequently outside of Arrowhead Stadium before games, often verbally abused by passersby and told to "go home."

sports.yahoo.com

This week, the coalition is targeting NFL Kansas City Chiefs. The MLB Atlanta Braves also.

While the team may have banned headdress and war paint, the fans outside the NFL stadium still do. NFL Kansas City ownership has never met with coalition.

Someone needs to remind them that the "Chiefs" name was taken from nickname for the Mayor of Kansas City when the team moved there from Dallas.

The Arrowhead isn't exclusive to indigenous communities either.

 

[AndreRoy]

I was just listening to a podcast with Hari Kondabolu and Hank Azaria about Apu on the Simpsons and that controversy, and a lot of that seems apt here.

That was more about representation in media, but "the problem with Apu" (pun intended) and how it pertains to sports is the caricature and cultural appropriation. Using charicatures of PEOPLE as a mascot.

And any "oh, PC or woke stuff, let it go" is dumb. "it's our teams tradition!" Yeah, it was THEIR tradition FIRST, and it's also THEIR identity that you don't have a right to, unless you're a tribe member.

Atlanta actually has the easiest rebrand on the table sitting right there. And they need to use it, because their franchise started as the Braves in Boston, so it's not a tribute to the local tribes native to Atlanta.

The Atlanta Hammers, honoring Hank Aaron, with a hammer replacing the tomahawk in their logo is really, really easy. Borderline unnoticable. And they should have done it BEFORE Hank Aaron died.

So I assume you have the same problem with the Notre Dame Fighting Irish? And the Lucky Charms Leprechaun?

And if you have a problem with Azaria voicing Apu, then I assume you also have a problem with Ana de Armas playing Marilyn Monroe? Jodie Turner-Smith playing Anne Boleyn? Adele James playing Cleopatra?

Are you at least consistent with your stance or just another obnoxious virtue signaler?

 

[KevFu]

So I assume you have the same problem with the Notre Dame Fighting Irish? And the Lucky Charms Leprechaun?

And if you have a problem with Azaria voicing Apu, then I assume you also have a problem with Ana de Armas playing Marilyn Monroe? Jodie Turner-Smith playing Anne Boleyn? Adele James playing Cleopatra?

Are you at least consistent with your stance or just another obnoxious virtue signaler?

I don't have a problem with any of that. I didn't have a problem with Apu, either. But I'm "Generic White Guy #47" so nothing offends me and I'M not the THE SUBJECT of a caricature by a sports team. I'm not part of a group of people that were subjugated, or robbed/murdered on their own continent.

I AM consistent with my stance: The right to swing your fist ends at someone else's face.

Sports fans want to keep a name (swing their fists) for no real legitimate reason other than they always have; and the subjects of caricatures are saying "you're hitting my face, please stop."

It's really not too much to ask to not be a jerk, and just because you like swinging your fist doesn't mean it should be okay to keep doing it.


Especially over something as insignificant as a sports team name. Yes, the team is part of a city's identity... but the history of sports have proven that it legitimately just IS "we're USED to THIS NAME" and nothing more.

Every time there's an expansion team name announced, people are like "That's so weird and dumb as a team name." And then fans... just get used to it and accept it. We're so used to the teams that no one cares that Los Angeles has no lakes or trolleys to dodge. Or that Jazz started in New Orleans, not Utah. Heck, "Devil Rays" sounds weird now, when "Tampa Bay Rays" sounded weird when they first switched.


Atlanta doesn't want to change the name "Braves" is because they've had that name since 1966. But the name clearly has NOTHING to do with Atlanta, since the team started using the nickname in BOSTON, moved to Milwaukee, and then Atlanta.

The sooner you start the clock on a new team name and people get used to it, the better off a franchise is. And if you pick a good nickname, a better nickname, it goes even faster.

 

[Primary Assist]

This is happening in New York State as well with the public schools. Schools will lose a portion of their funding if they don't change their mascots/nicknames away from Native American names. Which then opens up the Pandora's Box of, is it really OK that students will be the ones harmed here due to actions out of their control?

 

[Reaser]

I'm "Generic White Guy #47" so nothing offends me and I'M not the THE SUBJECT of a caricature by a sports team. I'm not part of a group of people that were subjugated, or robbed/murdered on their own continent.

I'd ask why you continually think you can speak for another group of people then, but I'll share a funny story instead.

Wellpinit High School, on the Spokane Indian Reservation (yes, Indian) has the Redskins as their mascot. Generic White People #1-46 & #48-100 were offended and wanted them to change THEIR school's mascot.

Tribal Council and students said we'll name our teams what we want to, thank you very much. For years they have repeatedly chosen to keep "Redskins." The students recently voted to keep "Redskins."

In this state it was one of the funnier stories, just to see these 'generic white people' patting themselves on the back like they're great people, oblivious and continually missing the irony of them speaking for another group on what they should and shouldn't be offended by. In the end, they were wrong, per usual. As the people that live and goto school on the Spokane Indian Reservation want THEIR athletic teams to be called the Redskins, and so they are, as they should be.

 

[KevFu]

I'd ask why you continually think you can speak for another group of people then, but I'll share a funny story instead.

Yeah, that story is totally ridiculous.


But I'm NOT "speaking for" anyone. The Not in Our Honor Coalition is asking for an end to cultural appropriation team names, not me.

I'm pretty consistent in my views on sports team branding: I'm against stupid team names, which is obviously subjective.

But if your name is CONTROVERSIAL, it's stupid to keep it, because what's the point? (would anyone even SUGGEST a name like Chiefs or Braves for an expansion team? Of course not).

The goal is to appeal to everyone so you can get money from everyone, right? So you're CHOOSING which group to alienate:The people who are offended by the name, or the people who are used to the name.

The group that constantly says "Get over it" is the group that is scientifically proven to actually get over it with time. FANS will get used to a new name. The victims of genocide and land theft and oppression, probably not so much.

THAT'S a very simple calculation, which is why Cleveland changed their name.

 

[Dirty Old Man]

Collegiate is more interesting to me. Utah and Illinois have both gotten rid of all but the most ancillary of connections logo-wise, and that basically leaves San Diego State and especially Florida State as NCAA targets, although the Seminoles relationship with the tribe is a major protection that the university has cultivated.

Which, as a fan of the in-state rival (and descendant of U of I grads), is such crap...the Seminoles who managed to stay in Florida endorse it, but the ones who got forced out...well...

Florida State's Chief Osceola disgusts member of Seminole tribe of Oklahoma

By Berry Tramel When Chief Osceola first planted his spear in the turf at Florida State's Doak Campbell Stadium, Sept. 16, 1978, the opponent was the Oklahoma State Cowboys. You can look it up. Osceo…

www.oklahoman.com

 

[AndreRoy]

All this talk of “genocide and land theft” is complete and utter horseshit. There’s this false notion that the tribes that were here before Europeans settled the continent were all peace-loving and in tune with nature, and then the “evil White man” came along and ruined their little utopia. The truth is the vast majority of those tribes were as violent and bent on subjugating others as the rest of the world was at that time. They fought and conquered each other on a regular basis, until people came along who played the same game but were simply better at it.

Now does that mean the things that happened back then were good? Of course not. But that’s how the world was at that time. Interesting that only one group is ever blamed and attacked for it.

 

[joelef]

All this talk of “genocide and land theft” is complete and utter horseshit. There’s this false notion that the tribes that were here before Europeans settled the continent were all peace-loving and in tune with nature, and then the “evil White man” came along and ruined their little utopia. The truth is the vast majority of those tribes were as violent and bent on subjugating others as the rest of the world was at that time. They fought and conquered each other on a regular basis, until people came along who played the same game but were simply better at it.

Now does that mean the things that happened back then were good? Of course not. But that’s how the world was at that time. Interesting that only one group is ever blamed and attacked for it.

The reason Cortes was able to destroy the Aztec empire was because of help of the other tribes who the Aztecs subjugated

 

[ichbinkanadier]

Blackhawks have the easiest one to change, too.

Bit does it need to he changed? The name traces back to a particular individual and the logo is merely a generic representation of the group.

I suspect people who have a problem with it do sp because of a political bias (I.e. I'm on the left, ergo I have to hate this) rather than any well thought out objection.

 

[daver]

If only the effort to fight this could be put towards the infinitely more serious social issues that native peoples face then these efforts may be taken more seriously.

There is a sense of going after the low hanging fruit and making people believe their troubles in life will be solved by eliminating superficial racism.

Noone should care that some drunken idiot paints their face eight times a year.

 

[BigBadBruins7708]

If only the effort to fight this could be put towards the infinitely more serious social issues that native peoples face then these efforts may be taken more seriously.

There is a sense of going after the low hanging fruit and making people believe their troubles in life will be solved by eliminating superficial racism.

Noone should care that some drunken idiot paints their face eight times a year.

It's kind of like the irony of Land O Lakes change.

They removed the native and kept the land

 

[KevFu]

I suspect people who have a problem with it do sp because of a political bias (I.e. I'm on the left, ergo I have to hate this) rather than any well thought out objection.

If only the effort to fight this could be put towards the infinitely more serious social issues that native peoples face then these efforts may be taken more seriously.

Meh, I think all that's kind of non-sense. There's three reasons why this kind of thing is an actual topic:

1. People LIKE sports, while politics is annoying. Sports are on TV and representation matters. (Hank Azaria stopped doing the voice of Apu when he realized that "Apu" was being used as a slur during hate crimes). Sports has always been at the forefront of this kind of stuff, like Jackie Robinson, Loyola and Texas Western, etc. People will take their cues from sports. So it's a good starting point.

2. The fact that other things are worse doesn't make something right.

3. THIS IS AN EASY FIX. There definitely ARE infinitely more serious social issues faced by those who don't like the sports names; But everyone knows that politics gets nothing done and FIXING those issues costs BILLIONS.

Changing the name of a sports team is literally "the least we can do" because it costs taxpayers NOTHING. It doesn't take political fights or legislation, or codes and laws to be re-written. It takes ONE PERSON who owns a team, and HAS billions of dollars that he's spending on the HOBBY of sports ownership.

Also, the role of merchandising helps offset the cost. While it takes millions to change logos, branding, signage... you're also selling all new gear to fans.