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Whileee

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so basically u r all fine for pomo an extension for a good number of years!!??
Where did I write that? In fact, I've indicated that I expect Chevy to bring in a top D and for the Jets to move Heinola and Samberg into the lineup to improve the D, and if the Jets aren't a contender it would be reasonable to think about changes coaches.

Why do you think it's necessary to use a straw man argument, just because you don't agree with me?
 
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Whileee

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how long are you gonna go down that road!!...how many seasons..is it gonna be any better next season.. or the one after...and after..etc!!...think who is gonna be brought in to make this team a difference overnite...think about...it aint gonna happen via a trade...the system hasnt work for how many years now...why would it change now!?
Settle down. Try to understand my position. Or just ignore my posts, if they bother you. I won't mind.
 

PhilJets

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You mean Roslovic? Laine? So, they are the best judges of a coach? Interesting perspective.

Is Stastny also? considering he played less games with POMo than them?

Its was Stastny night , POMo gave a good speech on Stastny whats he (stastny) gonna do?

Does that speech by stastny validates anything that nothing is wrong in the room?

We won't know for sure.

But we know
Pomo has strong connection at least with Wheeler.
 

Ducky10

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I think it's still relevant to blame the defense, because if anything it's worse now that Forbort hit the skids. I find it hard to separate bad players from bad performance.

Have the players stopped listening to Maurice, or stopped trying? A bit hard to assess, but I don't see clear signs that they don't give a good effort fairly consistently.

I'm not sure which "young" players seem disaffected by Maurice. Stanley? Pionk? Appleton? Copp? Connor? Ehlers? Dubois? If there are clear signs that he's lost them, I haven't seen them.

When the team isn't winning, it's natural to think of a lot of reasons, and the coach is fair game. But many smart analysts and pundits pegged the Jets as a bubble playoff team or below due to a really bad defense. Personally, I pegged this as a development season, because of the need to rebuild the D. It would be a bit inconsistent to now change assessments of the team quality and blame the coaches when it's pretty clear that the D was as bad or worse than everyone expected.
I think it’s far too narrow to look at this season in making the determination on Maurice. I didn’t expect the Jets to accomplish much this season either and I was glad Chevy stood pat at the deadline instead of trying to improve on something that wasn’t nearly enough.

Having said that, despite the obvious talent deficiencies on defense, there have been numerous, questionable lineup decisions, deployment issues and what appear to be strategic issues relative to what Maurice does have at hand. I never use the word disaffected, your word. My point was it’s not a surprise to me that veteran NHL players would praise Maurice, they are typically the players he leans on and gives favour to in many ways. I’m not sure where some young players stand with Maurice but I’ve seen indifferent play over the years from Scheifele, Ehlers, Morrissey, Copp, I’ve seen nothing from PLD so far to think Maurice has been able to figure out how to get more from him.

Ever since 17-18 it’s been one excuse after the other for Maurice. It’s not just about this season to me, they’ve looked disjointed and lacking a cohesive style for 3 years. I said it then, I’ll say it now, Maurice has taken this team as far as he’s going to regardless of whether they like him or not. It may not be his fault but I think it’s past time something changes other than an injection in talent.
 
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surixon

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I think it’s far too narrow to look at this season in making the determination on Maurice. I didn’t expect the Jets to accomplish much this season either and I was glad Chevy stood pat at the deadline instead of trying to improve on something that wasn’t nearly enough.

Having said that, despite the obvious talent deficiencies on defense, there have been numerous, questionable lineup decisions, deployment issues and what appear to be strategic issues relative to what Maurice does have at hand. I never use the word disaffected, your word. My point was it’s not a surprise to me that veteran NHL players would praise Maurice, they are typically the players he leans on and gives favour to in many ways. I’m not sure where some young players stand with Maurice but I’ve seen indifferent play over the years from Scheifele, Ehlers, Morrissey, Copp, I’ve seen nothing from PLD so far to think Maurice has been able to figure out how to get more from him.

Ever since 17-18 it’s been one excuse after the other for Maurice. It’s not just about this season to me, they’ve looked disjointed and lacking a cohesive style for 3 years. I said it then, I’ll say it now, Maurice has taken this team as far as he’s going to regardless of whether they like him or not. It may not be his fault but I think it’s past time something changes other than an injection in talent.

That is where I am at as well. Barring him completely changing his approach and reinventing himself I think his current message is stale and it isn't resonating enough with most of the team. If it was this team would be resembling a hockey team most nights and you would be able to at least see some form of cohesion even if our lack of talent on the back end was exposed. As is most of the time the team looks like a collection of individuals trying to free lance and do their own thing. There is poor puck support and spacing all over the ice and it seems to me anyway that most players hesitate when they have the puck because they don't trust other players to be where they are supposed to be. All of those issues to me are coaching related and not talent related. Every single NHL player should be able to coached on where to be on the ice and how to provide proper puck support. These concepts will have been drilled into them at every level they have played at. The fact this team struggles with such simple concepts leads me to believe that they either aren't being coached well enough or they have started tuning out the coach.
 

Neuf

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The Jets aren't ready at puck drop. Too little rest one week, too much the next. Not playing until the second period, etc.

It's fairly consistent that the Jets just don't show up ready to go. If the coach could do that they'd be in a better place too
 
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surixon

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I loved Vincent's comments today when talking about Samberg. He mentioned something along the lines of "We want our dmen to join the rush, we want them to be involved in the offensive zone, we have our routes but we want them to be creative"

That is a fresh of breath air and matches what I have seen from that team in terms of offensive systems. It is that type of mindset that we need to see on the Jets. You can't tell me that we can't have that type of philosophy with dmen like Morrisey, Pionk and Heinola on the the big team. If our development coach is fully endorsing that type of philosophy then why isn't our NHL head coach.

Perfetti also raved about Vincent in his interview today about how much time he and his staff spent helping him on his game. He also said something that hit home with me on the type of coach who I think will be successful with this group of players we had. He said something a long the lines of "He allowed me to be the player I am within the confines of the team structure". That to me is a coach that gets it and isn't concerned about trying to fit square pegs into round holes.
 
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Whileee

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Ehlers is hurt, Wheeler had broken ribs, our D wasn’t good enough, Lowry was hurt, the crowd was quiet, the bubble was hard, life is hard...

Told you the excuses would start lining up pre-off season - Maurice is very good at planting the seeds
I thought they were a bubble playoff team based in talent. No excuses needed for finishing about where their talent deserves.

Where do you think this lineup ranks in terms of talent?
 
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Whileee

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I loved Vincent's comments today when talking about Samberg. He mentioned something along the lines of "We want our dmen to join the rush, we want them to be involved in the offensive zone, we have our routes but we want them to be creative"

That is a fresh of breath air and matches what I have seen from that team in terms of offensive systems. It is that type of mindset that we need to see on the Jets. You can't tell me that we can't have that type of philosophy with dmen like Morrisey, Pionk and Heinola on the the big team. If our development coach is fully endorsing that type of philosophy then why isn't our NHL head coach.

Perfetti also raved about Vincent in his interview today about how much time he and his staff spent helping him on his game. He also said something that hit home with me on the type of coach who I think will be successful with this group of players we had. He said something a long the lines of "He allowed me to be the player I am within the confines of the team structure". That to me is a coach that gets it and isn't concerned about trying to fit square pegs into round holes.
Jets had one of the most active D corps in the NHL with Buff, Trouba, Myers..

What creativity do you expect from Forbort, Poolman, Beaulieu, Stanley, DeMelo, Benn? Morrissey has tried to activate at times, but that pair with Poolman got burned a lot because Poolman is unpredictable and doesn't read the play. Pionk activates a fair bit, but again, Forbort is a disaster when he tries to manage speed coming back through the neutral zone. It's much harder at the NHL level. Just ask Heinola, who got mixed up and it ended up in the back of the net.

I'm all for more active D, but this is a very low talent D. As I noted previously, on one of this D would make the top 5 of Jets recent D in terms of ixGF or GF per 60.
 

GaryPoppins

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I think it’s far too narrow to look at this season in making the determination on Maurice. I didn’t expect the Jets to accomplish much this season either and I was glad Chevy stood pat at the deadline instead of trying to improve on something that wasn’t nearly enough..

I realize in the residual half of your post, you citing a change is likely the best option but I think that this season is a PERFECT encapsulation of Maurice’s last few years(18/19 to present).

I’d stated this season will be exceptionally telling in regards to adjustments or lack of. In any other season in any other market, Maurice would have been fired by now. Add in dropping 9 of 10 while simultaneously giving up home ice advantage. Each year, he has “excuses” why things fall of the rails; travel, injuries, etc. If I was failing in my job and just provided excuses while colleagues I had were up against the same issues and succeeding, I’d be fired.

Why is this coach so exempt from being held accountable?

We all know the right decision here.. Mo must go.
 

Whileee

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I realize in the residual half of your post, you citing a change is likely the best option but I think that this season is a PERFECT encapsulation of Maurice’s last few years(18/19 to present).

I’d stated this season will be exceptionally telling in regards to adjustments or lack of. In any other season in any other market, Maurice would have been fired by now. Add in dropping 9 of 10 while simultaneously giving up home ice advantage. Each year, he has “excuses” why things fall of the rails; travel, injuries, etc. If I was failing in my job and just provided excuses while colleagues I had were up against the same issues and succeeding, I’d be fired.

Why is this coach so exempt from being held accountable?

We all know the right decision here.. Mo must go.
Let's follow that analogy...

Your boss sets performance expectations, and gives you a set of resources to meet those performance expectations. He tells you that he realizes that the resources are limited, and encourages you that he'll be providing enhanced resources in the future. You perform your duties and meet the expectations, and have only used the resources your boss told you to use. Your boss comes to you at the end of the year and says "I understand you were short on resources, and I know that they weren't enough to do much better, but you're fired anyway because I wanted better results."

My point is that Maurice knows he was given a crappy D. He was likely also constrained from using new / young D like Heinola / Samberg due to cap / development considerations. The team finished 3rd in the Division, despite most prognosticators predicting that they would finish either on the bubble, or outside the playoffs.
 

PhilJets

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This team is not a bubble team.
Specially playing in North Division.

Talent alone overall they should be behind only the Leafs if anybody is ahead.

Each team has weakness.
Jets 1 top Dmen short to drop the other players down the line up so they dont play above their weight class.

This more on system wide issues.

The 2 goalies alone is the best tandem in the North.
Center depth, which many are hyping about, as good as any in the North , probably better specially you can play Copp there.
Jets have
JMO Pionk and Demelo as solid dmen.
Now you have Heinola and Stanley coming on their own. Now you have what most team problem have, filling in that 6th and 7th D.
Which you have Poolman Forbort are for.

This team talent is not bubble team talent.

6 players on this team was ranked in the top 100 nhl players at the start of the year.
I believe the most or tied for the most.

Note: i am not saying they are top 5 team they are not anymore.
 

Howard Chuck

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This team is not a bubble team.
Specially playing in North Division.

Talent alone overall they should be behind only the Leafs if anybody is ahead.

Each team has weakness.
Jets 1 top Dmen short to drop the other players down the line up so they dont play above their weight class.

This more on system wide issues.

The 2 goalies alone is the best tandem in the North.
Center depth, which many are hyping about, as good as any in the North , probably better specially you can play Copp there.
Jets have
JMO Pionk and Demelo as solid dmen.
Now you have Heinola and Stanley coming on their own. Now you have what most team problem have, filling in that 6th and 7th D.
Which you have Poolman Forbort are for.

This team talent is not bubble team talent.

6th players on this team was ranked in the top 100 nhl players at the start of the year.
I believe the most or tied for the most.

Note: i am not saying they are top 5 team they are not anymore.
Agree. We have the players with talent. We either didn’t play them or the ones we did play didn’t play as a cohesive unit.
 

GaryPoppins

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Let's follow that analogy...

Your boss sets performance expectations, and gives you a set of resources to meet those performance expectations. He tells you that he realizes that the resources are limited, and encourages you that he'll be providing enhanced resources in the future. You perform your duties and meet the expectations, and have only used the resources your boss told you to use. Your boss comes to you at the end of the year and says "I understand you were short on resources, and I know that they weren't enough to do much better, but you're fired anyway because I wanted better results."

My point is that Maurice knows he was given a crappy D. He was likely also constrained from using new / young D like Heinola / Samberg due to cap / development considerations. The team finished 3rd in the Division, despite most prognosticators predicting that they would finish either on the bubble, or outside the playoffs.

Let’s apply that analogy to Maurice but him not being equipped with a top 3 goaltender in the world. The only reason he “met” expectations(that’s a strong way to describe it) was riding the Helle train. If this team gets NHL average goaltending last year, he’s done.

the last stretch of games, they’ve received exactly that and they’ve dropped how many?

I just can’t understand why people can justify why such an average coach deserves to be one of the longest tenured coaches with exactly 1 trip past the first round.

again, why do results not apply to Maurice?
 
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Whileee

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This team is not a bubble team.
Specially playing in North Division.

Talent alone overall they should be behind only the Leafs if anybody is ahead.

Each team has weakness.
Jets 1 top Dmen short to drop the other players down the line up so they dont play above their weight class.

This more on system wide issues.

The 2 goalies alone is the best tandem in the North.
Center depth, which many are hyping about, as good as any in the North , probably better specially you can play Copp there.
Jets have
JMO Pionk and Demelo as solid dmen.
Now you have Heinola and Stanley coming on their own. Now you have what most team problem have, filling in that 6th and 7th D.
Which you have Poolman Forbort are for.

This team talent is not bubble team talent.

6 players on this team was ranked in the top 100 nhl players at the start of the year.
I believe the most or tied for the most.

Note: i am not saying they are top 5 team they are not anymore.
I disagree with your assessment, particularly of the D. I think it's right at the bottom of the NHL, especially with Morrissey's struggles for much of the season.

I expect fans to perhaps have higher expectations for their team, but it's important to make decisions based on a clear-eyed view of the team / roster strength.

As I posted earlier... (from Dom Luszczyszyn at the Athletic, in his pre-season review: Winnipeg Jets 2020-21 NHL season preview) Sorry it's behind a paywall, but I've pasted a couple of summary graphics.

upload_2021-5-13_8-32-40.png


upload_2021-5-13_8-34-11.png
 

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cbcwpg

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You can be the nicest guy on the planet. You can have the greatest motivating speeches. Everyone that works with you can love you. All your players can be willing to go thru a wall for you. You haven't lost the room. You are like their dad.

Doesn't mean you will ever achieve what you were hired to do.
 

Channelcat

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Ehlers is hurt, Wheeler had broken ribs, our D wasn’t good enough, Lowry was hurt, the crowd was quiet, the bubble was hard, life is hard...

Told you the excuses would start lining up pre-off season - Maurice is very good at planting the seeds
Its the way he's wired. He knows he won't have any tangible success.....other than dragging out a very lucrative career.
 

WPGChief

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I disagree with your assessment, particularly of the D. I think it's right at the bottom of the NHL, especially with Morrissey's struggles for much of the season.

I expect fans to perhaps have higher expectations for their team, but it's important to make decisions based on a clear-eyed view of the team / roster strength.

As I posted earlier... (from Dom Luszczyszyn at the Athletic, in his pre-season review: Winnipeg Jets 2020-21 NHL season preview) Sorry it's behind a paywall, but I've pasted a couple of summary graphics.

View attachment 433441

View attachment 433443
So if the Jets talent was so bad as we all should have expected it to be, what justified Maurice’s decision to play a lineup with those players instead of finding out what we had in our prospects? Should we really be content with a coach that knew we were bad but at least we weren’t as bad as 3 other Canadian teams and that we should cross our fingers, toes, and legs in hopes that prospects make the jump or Chevy makes a move this upcoming offseason? As if we should have expected them to be bad, why did Chevy go out and acquire Stastny this past offseason with 1yr remaining on his deal?

Doesn’t make sense to me, in that context.
 

Whileee

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You can be the nicest guy on the planet. You can have the greatest motivating speeches. Everyone that works with you can love you. All your players can be willing to go thru a wall for you. You haven't lost the room. You are like their dad.

Doesn't mean you will ever achieve what you were hired to do.
If I was persuaded that a different coach would provide short, medium and long term benefits to the Jets, I would be in favour. But I don't think it's easy to judge coaching performance per se based on the time since Buff, Trouba departed (mid 2018/19). I'm also skeptical about the actual performance differences between NHL coaches. I've seen too many examples of the same coach going either way when changing teams, and usually the results track very closely to the quality of the players on the roster.

In Winnipeg, there is an additional requirement - a coach has to fit into the maintenance of a franchise culture that is perhaps excessively player-friendly and "loyal". This is not a desirable destination, and the Jets will always struggle to attract and retain top players. They try to balance that by making players and their families feel that the organization is focused on their well-being, etc. Big markets that are desirable can be more cutthroat and business-like. But if you combine an undesirable market with a bad culture / coach, you get Columbus.

So, I don't dismiss the role of the Jets' coach in making the core players feel important. Ultimately, they are the ones that will influence who comes and who goes. If you don't think Wheeler played a role in Stastny coming to Winnipeg, you aren't paying attention. The context is different in Winnipeg, and the coaches, GM, and owners and veteran players are all part of the same strategy.

Much has been said about how badly Maurice treated Laine, but I think it's becoming pretty clear that the opposite is true. Laine has a lot of deficiencies, that extend into how he prepares himself in the off-season. Maurice still made sure he got a ton of opportunities to succeed, and tried to make it work. In addition, vets were very restrained in how they commented about Laine, even after he threw Little under the bus.
 

JetsUK

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I loved Vincent's comments today when talking about Samberg. He mentioned something along the lines of "We want our dmen to join the rush, we want them to be involved in the offensive zone, we have our routes but we want them to be creative"

That is a fresh of breath air and matches what I have seen from that team in terms of offensive systems. It is that type of mindset that we need to see on the Jets. You can't tell me that we can't have that type of philosophy with dmen like Morrisey, Pionk and Heinola on the the big team. If our development coach is fully endorsing that type of philosophy then why isn't our NHL head coach.

Perfetti also raved about Vincent in his interview today about how much time he and his staff spent helping him on his game. He also said something that hit home with me on the type of coach who I think will be successful with this group of players we had. He said something a long the lines of "He allowed me to be the player I am within the confines of the team structure". That to me is a coach that gets it and isn't concerned about trying to fit square pegs into round holes.

Yes, I caught that too, and it reminded me of CP talking about how influential his junior coach had been on his development, along the same lines.

I get that they're different coaches with different missions -- PV to develop raw talent into useful players for the Jets; PoMo to win games with the talent he has and will have. But I also think that their skillsets reflect the direction of modern coaching: PV to accurately assess his players' strengths and weaknesses and chart the optimal dev path within systems largely devised by and for the big club, while also relying on AHL vets to keep the "shape" of those systems and giving prospects some reign to find their own best game within it. He clearly spends a lot of time working to understand how those prospects play and then give them direction and room to play their best -- it starts with a structure flexible enough to accommodate this info, and adapt to it, and you see it on the ice.

Having watched and listened (until last year, when I had to stop listening to him for my own sanity) to PoMo for years now, my sense is that he has very specific biases towards a way of playing and the sorts of players who fit those -- N/S, straight lines, hard on the forecheck, big bodies on D, on the checking line and at centre with smaller bodies on the wings. Safe, low-percentage plays on D and in transition, emphasis on zone time and the cycle for a high-danger shot in the OZ. He had the right players for his system for a short time, and when he didn't, he's been slow to adapt. Big D/Little D, CSW Ride or Die, over-playing his perceived key players, running with a clearly injured and ineffective Wheeler playing big minutes instead of resting or reducing them, running a 3/2 rather than five-man press and retreat often with a lone forechecker and big gaps, resisting activating his D to prevent odd-man rushes, ceding the middle of the ice, etc. I don't see much innovation or adapting to a new roster shape there, and I don't see him "getting" players like Heinola or CP, if Ehlers' past usage is any guide.

It isn't really a question of blame for me. I don't think he's a fool, or a dinosaur, or a bad person, or a Machiavellian strategist. I just think he's done what he could for this team, and keeping him in place for another 2 years will mean more of the same, barring the introduction of a system/tactics coach -- but I don't see PoMo going for that, and even if he did, that new addition would need to have charge of the roster and "run the bench" for it to work.

And I don't think those advocating for a change are automatically knee-jerk bomb throwers or blowhards. There's a difference between "WE LOST -- FIRE THE COACH!" arguments and a long series of discussions about a coach who's had 7 years to work with a team that was for a decent stretch one of the deepest and most talented in the league.

This is from a main boards post on Quinn's firing yesterday. I get that Quinn came via the college route and had a rep for developing players, but some of it will be familiar, and maybe strengthens the argument that NHL coaching needs to move still further away from the #IRunTheBench model and towards a more specialized team approach:

I had three major problems with Quinn:

1- He refused to play the kids. Just refused. Put them all on one line so it would be easier to bury them refused. Some of the kids struggled for a bit, others were having career years. Didn't matter. Buried. His use of Kakko and Laf was particularly egregious, as it was historically low usage for top-2 picks. You literally have to go back something like 30 years to find a top 2 pick getting fewer minutes per game with almost no PP time. The team got top 5 picks for the first time in franchise history, and this guy thinks he knows more about how to develop those players than every coach/team in the last three decades. Hubris out the eyeballs.

2- Every time he made a comment about what the kids needed to do to get more minutes, it was never framed in terms of tactics. It was always framed in terms of NHL effort and "how hard you have to work to succeed at this level...it just seems off to say those kinds of things without that kind of experience. Base your critique on tactics and strategy."

3- The number one condemnation of his coaching, and the one that would have made it GM malpractice to bring him back, in my opinion, was the fact that his veterans walked all over him and he rewarded them for it. Game after game, as losses piled up against the good teams in the division, Quinn talked about playing North/South. Game after game, his veterans did what they pleased, and Quinn just kept feeding them minutes. Letting them stay out there for the full 2 minutes on the power play (despite PP1 not scoring at all in the final 40 seconds of a PP this season). The players were even bold enough to push back on their coach's regular critique: In an Athletic article from about 5 weeks ago, Strome said “We tend to shoot for quality, not quantity. Sometimes it helps us, sometimes it doesn’t. I think especially with our top guys, you can’t micromanage it. You have to trust that we see the right play and that we’re going to make the right play. Obviously, you’d love to shoot the puck more and score more, but 40-plus shots, and the possession, I thought, was pretty good the second half of the game.” That's damning. It's open disrespect.



 

surixon

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Jets had one of the most active D corps in the NHL with Buff, Trouba, Myers..

What creativity do you expect from Forbort, Poolman, Beaulieu, Stanley, DeMelo, Benn? Morrissey has tried to activate at times, but that pair with Poolman got burned a lot because Poolman is unpredictable and doesn't read the play. Pionk activates a fair bit, but again, Forbort is a disaster when he tries to manage speed coming back through the neutral zone. It's much harder at the NHL level. Just ask Heinola, who got mixed up and it ended up in the back of the net.

I'm all for more active D, but this is a very low talent D. As I noted previously, on one of this D would make the top 5 of Jets recent D in terms of ixGF or GF per 60.

Well what defensive creativity is on the Moose right now with Heinola on the Jets and Chisholm and Kovacevik injured. Most of the Moose defense is now filled with fringe players but Vincent still encourages it. It's his mindset I like and maybe that mindset changes if he is an NHL head coach and the pressure to win is on him but I would hope not.

As for your other point well isn't that a deployment issue that has been brought up by many on this form. Had Morriseey been paired with DeMelo most of the year he is probably pretty comfortable by now inserting himself in the teams offense as he has a partner he can trust on the back end.
 

surixon

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Yes, I caught that too, and it reminded me of CP talking about how influential his junior coach had been on his development, along the same lines.

I get that they're different coaches with different missions -- PV to develop raw talent into useful players for the Jets; PoMo to win games with the talent he has and will have. But I also think that their skillsets reflect the direction of modern coaching: PV to accurately assess his players' strengths and weaknesses and chart the optimal dev path within systems largely devised by and for the big club, while also relying on AHL vets to keep the "shape" of those systems and giving prospects some reign to find their own best game within it. He clearly spends a lot of time working to understand how those prospects play and then give them direction and room to play their best -- it starts with a structure flexible enough to accommodate this info, and adapt to it, and you see it on the ice.

Having watched and listened (until last year, when I had to stop listening to him for my own sanity) to PoMo for years now, my sense is that he has very specific biases towards a way of playing and the sorts of players who fit those -- N/S, straight lines, hard on the forecheck, big bodies on D, on the checking line and at centre with smaller bodies on the wings. Safe, low-percentage plays on D and in transition, emphasis on zone time and the cycle for a high-danger shot in the OZ. He had the right players for his system for a short time, and when he didn't, he's been slow to adapt. Big D/Little D, CSW Ride or Die, over-playing his perceived key players, running with a clearly injured and ineffective Wheeler playing big minutes instead of resting or reducing them, running a 3/2 rather than five-man press and retreat often with a lone forechecker and big gaps, resisting activating his D to prevent odd-man rushes, ceding the middle of the ice, etc. I don't see much innovation or adapting to a new roster shape there, and I don't see him "getting" players like Heinola or CP, if Ehlers' past usage is any guide.

It isn't really a question of blame for me. I don't think he's a fool, or a dinosaur, or a bad person, or a Machiavellian strategist. I just think he's done what he could for this team, and keeping him in place for another 2 years will mean more of the same, barring the introduction of a system/tactics coach -- but I don't see PoMo going for that, and even if he did, that new addition would need to have charge of the roster and "run the bench" for it to work.

And I don't think those advocating for a change are automatically knee-jerk bomb throwers or blowhards. There's a difference between "WE LOST -- FIRE THE COACH!" arguments and a long series of discussions about a coach who's had 7 years to work with a team that was for a decent stretch one of the deepest and most talented in the league.

This is from a main boards post on Quinn's firing yesterday. I get that Quinn came via the college route and had a rep for developing players, but some of it will be familiar, and maybe strengthens the argument that NHL coaching needs to move still further away from the #IRunTheBench model and towards a more specialized team approach:

I had three major problems with Quinn:

1- He refused to play the kids. Just refused. Put them all on one line so it would be easier to bury them refused. Some of the kids struggled for a bit, others were having career years. Didn't matter. Buried. His use of Kakko and Laf was particularly egregious, as it was historically low usage for top-2 picks. You literally have to go back something like 30 years to find a top 2 pick getting fewer minutes per game with almost no PP time. The team got top 5 picks for the first time in franchise history, and this guy thinks he knows more about how to develop those players than every coach/team in the last three decades. Hubris out the eyeballs.

2- Every time he made a comment about what the kids needed to do to get more minutes, it was never framed in terms of tactics. It was always framed in terms of NHL effort and "how hard you have to work to succeed at this level...it just seems off to say those kinds of things without that kind of experience. Base your critique on tactics and strategy."

3- The number one condemnation of his coaching, and the one that would have made it GM malpractice to bring him back, in my opinion, was the fact that his veterans walked all over him and he rewarded them for it. Game after game, as losses piled up against the good teams in the division, Quinn talked about playing North/South. Game after game, his veterans did what they pleased, and Quinn just kept feeding them minutes. Letting them stay out there for the full 2 minutes on the power play (despite PP1 not scoring at all in the final 40 seconds of a PP this season). The players were even bold enough to push back on their coach's regular critique: In an Athletic article from about 5 weeks ago, Strome said “We tend to shoot for quality, not quantity. Sometimes it helps us, sometimes it doesn’t. I think especially with our top guys, you can’t micromanage it. You have to trust that we see the right play and that we’re going to make the right play. Obviously, you’d love to shoot the puck more and score more, but 40-plus shots, and the possession, I thought, was pretty good the second half of the game.” That's damning. It's open disrespect.




I can't like this post enough. I pretty much agree with it in its entirity.

You have highlighted the major philosophical differences between Vincent and Maurice. Maurice wants his players to play a certain way within prediscribed roles where as Vincent wants his players to be themselves within the structure.

I think Moe is far to role oriented and wants a high degree of specialization for each role. He seems to only get the most out of his teams when he has a roster full of players that can play those roles at a high level. When he has teams that are short on players that can fill some of those key roles he isn't really able to adapt his tactics and switch gears.

It's just the type of leader he is and that is fine, it's just hard in a cap league to get near perfect rosters to run a more individual role specialized team.
 
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