Coaching/Managment Kvetching Thread - March Version

[rt]

based on how they play i'd say half have the zika virus, 20% are afflicted with the plague, and all of them are dyslexic.

10/10 lirl

 

[ALA YotesPhan]

100% correct. But the DT Supporters put on the blinders and earplugs when someone tries to explain or educate them. .

Works both ways

 

[rt]

I'm sure in some ways Tippett is sheltering and rounding kids out. In other ways he's probably stunting them and bastardizing the end product. It's probably a little of column A and a little of column B.

Youngsters & Results This Season:

1. Domi: Exceeded expectations
2. Duke: Exceeded expectations
3. Toby: Exceeded expectations
4. Nook: Exceeded expectations
5. KCon: Exceeded expectations
6. Louis: Exceeded expectations

7. OEL: Met expectations
8. Murph: Met expectations
9. Stone: Met expectations

10. Dahlbeck: Below expectations

 

[hbk]

some of Tippett criticism is legit but a lot of it is based on things that happened before this season. The point being if you were going to fire him, the time was then not 2-3 years after the issue. If you reset (and that's what we did by not making a change) after last years debacle and judge things on the basis of expectations for this season I'm not sure those arguments to change hold water.

 

[rt]

Very, very early returns (single season) are good. I do agree, though, that it's hard to project whether the current staff is actually going to be a net positive in the longer term, as it relates to development of these kids. I can't disagree, though, that it at least LOOKS quite positive at this point.

I mostly just have a grudge and pent up anger towards coaching and management. Too much frustration and disappointment. Also, the pro Tippett argument here is so goddamned weak. And his supporters are just terrible at presenting their case. That doesn't help. I wish his lucid supporters on forum 40 were more vocal and his vocal supporters were more lucid.

 

[hbk]

I'm sure in some ways Tippett is sheltering and rounding kids out. In other ways he's probably stunting them and bastardizing the end product. It's probably a little of column A and a little of column B.

Youngsters & Results This Season:

1. Domi: Exceeded expectations
2. Duke: Exceeded expectations
3. Toby: Exceeded expectations
4. Nook: Exceeded expectations
5. KCon: Exceeded expectations
6. Louis: Exceeded expectations

7. OEL: Met expectations
8. Murph: Met expectations
9. Stone: Met expectations

10. Dahlbeck: Below expectations

Murphy has been a huge revelation this year. He's definitely progressed.

Dahlbeck was in AHL last year and was always projected to be the bottom pairing D that he's looked like this year.

 

[rt]

some of Tippett criticism is legit but a lot of it is based on things that happened before this season. The point being if you were going to fire him, the time was then not 2-3 years after the issue. If you reset (and that's what we did by not making a change) after last years debacle and judge things on the basis of expectations for this season I'm not sure those arguments to change hold water.

I agree. I just see the point of such an excercise. Why was this decision made? I think it has to do with a very green ownership group and a very yellow general manager. That doesn't sit well with me. Tippett deserved to be fired and wasn't. And now he doesn't really deserve to be fired. It knocks my sense of what's just off kilter and makes me uncomfortable. Not only am I annoyed but I'm worried about what it means. Will all of DT's bosses always kowtow to him? Like forever? It's as worrisome as it is bothersome for me.

 

[rt]

Murphy has been a huge revelation this year. He's definitely progressed.

Dahlbeck was in AHL last year and was always projected to be the bottom pairing D that he's looked like this year.

Net results based on expectations. Dahlbeck was excellent last year and was maybe the worst defenseman that played in enough games to count this season. He was bad most nights. I don't even really want him in the team next season.

We all expected Murphy to take a big step forward. He regressed until about Christmas or the new year. He took one giant step back and then two giant steps forward. As a result, I have him as a "meets". If you think about how far he's come since October, he's an "exceeds". But if you think of how far he's come since last April, it's just a "meets". I had high hopes. On the net, it was a good year. If you shrink your sample size enough, it was a great year. I'm not doing that.

 

[Bonsai Tree]

I've seen teams time and again change coaches in order to light a fire under players. I've seen teams change managers to better the performance of the coaching, as the Bulls did when they hired Jackson.

It's not that I'm a blind DT supporter, but that I believe that the blame for those bad years rests far more on the GM's shoulders. Maloney should have been fired a few years ago, like hbk noted about Tippett. I think that after his work putting together this season's roster he does not deserve to be fired. That time came and went.

Somewhere in all the instability, ownership or NHL decided that stability in the coach and GM trumped performance over these past years. That's why, IMO, both Tippett and Maloney are still here.

 

[Jakey53]

Very, very early returns (single season) are good. I do agree, though, that it's hard to project whether the current staff is actually going to be a net positive in the longer term, as it relates to development of these kids. I can't disagree, though, that it at least LOOKS quite positive at this point.

I mostly just have a grudge and pent up anger towards coaching and management. Too much frustration and disappointment. Also, the pro Tippett argument here is so goddamned weak. And his supporters are just terrible at presenting their case. That doesn't help. I wish his lucid supporters on forum 40 were more vocal and his vocal supporters were more lucid.

Why is your pent up anger with the coaching and management? All the anger should be directed at the NHL by tying the hands of our management and coaching. But there again, we can't really fault the NHL as they kept the team here during this fiasco. The new ownership decided on a rebuild, our first here in Arizona, and has given management extra $$$ to work with. I think DM and DT have done a remarkable job so far and deserve a change to prove they can take this team to the next level. If they can't I believe ownership will make a change. But you can't go back and look at the last four or five years record because it doesn't mean squat. The team had no chance of winning and were just trying to survive until the dust settled. Pro Tippett argument is strong not weak, but the negative argument is weak. All you guys do is go back over the last four or five years, without thinking of all the ownership problems and blame the coach and GM. It's easy to point fingers. This was a great first year of a rebuild.

 

[Jakey53]

I've seen teams time and again change coaches in order to light a fire under players. I've seen teams change managers to better the performance of the coaching, as the Bulls did when they hired Jackson.

It's not that I'm a blind DT supporter, but that I believe that the blame for those bad years rests far more on the GM's shoulders. Maloney should have been fired a few years ago, like hbk noted about Tippett. I think that after his work putting together this season's roster he does not deserve to be fired. That time came and went.

Somewhere in all the instability, ownership or NHL decided that stability in the coach and GM trumped performance over these past years. That's why, IMO, both Tippett and Maloney are still here.

Correct. This team was is survival mode for so long it's not even funny. Between TGO and the ownership fiasco, it's a miracle this team is even here.

 

[Jakey53]

Net results based on expectations. Dahlbeck was excellent last year and was maybe the worst defenseman that played in enough games to count this season. He was bad most nights. I don't even really want him in the team next season.

We all expected Murphy to take a big step forward. He regressed until about Christmas or the new year. He took one giant step back and then two giant steps forward. As a result, I have him as a "meets". If you think about how far he's come since October, he's an "exceeds". But if you think of how far he's come since last April, it's just a "meets". I had high hopes. On the net, it was a good year. If you shrink your sample size enough, it was a great year. I'm not doing that.

Murphy was terrible, as was Stone at the start of the year. DT sat Murphy for a few games and when he came back he has played well ever since. Playing D is extremely hard and it takes time for most to adjust. You will of course have your superstars that jump right in, but it is the exception not the rule.

 

[cobra427]

You consider moving from 6th in the Central, to 2nd in the Central with 104 points to be a lateral move?

Let's not forget that every person who responded to my question on HF Preds still prefers Laviolette over Trotz despite Washington's success. Most of them said Trotz is a great man and a great coach, but it was time for a change.

Rinni was out. If Montreal gets a new coach this summer, the team will improve and you would have the same argument, except for Price being back after being out part of the year. I like Laviolet and think he is a good coach just don't think that was an uptick or materially helped the team. If you want to replace Tip with Laviolet/Babcock/Q/Trotz, I am fine with that but think it would be a lateral move.

I am sure there are Preds fans that hate Trotz just like certain Coyotes fans hate Tip. The Preds have not regressed but they haven't improved like the Coyotes did when Tip replaced TGO or the way the Capitals have improved under Trotz.

 

[cobra427]

I agree. I just see the point of such an expertise. Why was this decision made? I think it has to do with a very green ownership group and a very yellow general manager. That doesn't sit well with me. Tippett deserved to be fired and wasn't. And now he doesn't really deserve to be fired. It knocks my sense of what's just off kilter and makes me uncomfortable. Not only am I annoyed but I'm worried about what it means. Will all of DT's bosses always kowtow to him? Like forever? It's as worrisome as it is bothersome for me.

Your earlier post outlines the progress made this year by young players. Tip has to get some credit for that development curve and DM some credit for all the youth on the roster. the team has exceeded expectations.

At the beginning of the year, I stated in a post that if the team does not show progress from the previous year, that something is wrong and either Tip or DM or both should be fired. next year, we need some measurable improvement or I feel the same way. If we slide back next year to 75 points or less, then one or both of them need to go.

Given the ownership situation, and making the playoffs 3 years in a row, a WCF appearance, has all earned DM/Tip some mulligans. The mulligans are gone now IMHO. If we are not at 90 points or better next year, I could see a change coming. Again, it depends on circumstances and injuries too. This year proved to me that keeping Tip/DM was the right decision so far.

 

[_Del_]

Tippett on the other hand has a .437 point percentage, for the last 4 consecutive years, dating back to 2012. Three of those seasons, management was all-in on trying to make the playoffs.

TGO: .473 over his 4 yrs in AZ "Worst coach ever"
Tippett: .437 over past 4 yrs "How dare you question him! Excuses!"

 

[BUX7PHX]

Literally just asked this question on HF Predators an hour ago, and so far literally every response has been that while Trotz is a very good coach, it was absolutely time that the Predators move on from him, even when considering Washington's success this year.

Every coach has a shelf life, no matter how good they are.

The hilarious thing about that is while Nashville, as an organization, did not want him to remain as coach, they did want him in a front office position (specifically, he was asked to stay on in a position with the hockey operations department). The reason why he was let go was b/c he did not want to do that and continue coaching.

I guess this means that teams may change the coach, but they still also understand how smart of a mind that individual would ha e to lead a team, just in a different capacity than coach. While I don't think that Tippett would be asked to hold a front office position, the correlation can be made that the team knows the asset that Tippett is, and therefore thinks that it is far better to keep him over the last four years (of which only one year was truly bad) than it would be to give any of the other 29 teams a chance to get him as a coach.

Bird in hand theory?

 

[Ebb]

My views are largely based on the flow of games along with what could possibly improve the team. While I somewhat commend Tipp for his time with us, I also feel that the roster needs a different approach to the game (although he has somewhat adjusted his strategy).

Again, I'll remind folks that I'm fine with keeping him for 1 more season and seeing how he does, but I wouldn't be saddened to see him fired/replaced after this season either (depending on who would replace him). I think he has taught the team well about the defensive side of the game, but now we have the talent to do more than simply settle for a defensive win (or loss), or slow games down to a crawl.

Tippett would be excellent for a team that has more money to spend on players and a veteran-heavy team. I could see him do wonders for Toronto, Edmonton, Calgary, Ottawa, or any of the playoff teams that lose a coach at the end of the playoffs (expiring contract or firing).

 

[kihekah19*]

I agree. I just see the point of such an excercise. Why was this decision made? I think it has to do with a very green ownership group and a very yellow general manager. That doesn't sit well with me. Tippett deserved to be fired and wasn't. And now he doesn't really deserve to be fired. It knocks my sense of what's just off kilter and makes me uncomfortable. Not only am I annoyed but I'm worried about what it means. Will all of DT's bosses always kowtow to him? Like forever? It's as worrisome as it is bothersome for me.

GMDM - yellow

Priceless!

 

[Grimes]

I agree. I just see the point of such an excercise. Why was this decision made? I think it has to do with a very green ownership group and a very yellow general manager. That doesn't sit well with me. Tippett deserved to be fired and wasn't. And now he doesn't really deserve to be fired. It knocks my sense of what's just off kilter and makes me uncomfortable. Not only am I annoyed but I'm worried about what it means. Will all of DT's bosses always kowtow to him? Like forever? It's as worrisome as it is bothersome for me.

This has now become my largest concern with Tippett too. I'm worried Maloney would be shown the door before Tippett and whomever the next GM is being as soft with Tippett as GMDM has been. A coach should not have as much influence on management decision as Tippett seemingly has. Now we could all be caught up in buiness/management talk and both DM and ownership act like Tippett has more influence than he does, but some actions have proven otherwise.

The apparent talk between Tippett and owbership/DM last offseason that convinced him to be on board with the rebuild was encouraging. His success with a young team and some of the words the young players also said about hin as a coach is also a good sign. I'm concered with what happens if he becomes frustrated with a player or vice-versa. I'm also concerned of management making bad decisions to appease him.

 

[_Del_]

The good news is that all my kvetching will be about one figure head now. I know who is pulling the strings now.

 

[ClassLessCoyote]

I'm moving this here so another thread doesn't go off-topic and to help avoid the playing of the moderator by those who aren't a moderator.


http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showthread.php?t=2064119&page=10

I've said it before and I'll keep saying it, coaches get fired when they fail to meet expectations. Boudreau was coaching a cup contender, Tippet coaches a lottery contender. There's a very big difference.

This is overly simplistic. BB was fired from 2 teams where coaching really isn't the problem but the GM and the players are more the problem. The Capitals haven't made it past the 2nd Round in quite sometime and not even the current coach can get the team past the 2nd Round. Will the Caps make it to the ECF this time around? We'll see! If they don't, then BB looks more like the better coach seeing that he has success with finally getting to a conference final last season with a different team though out in the 1st round this time around.

Tippett was never expected to coach a team to the best lotto pick possible but was always expected to make the playoffs and more regardless of what he has to deal with. His shelf-life with the team has been gone for quite sometime. BB is a much better fit than Tippett now for this franchise and Tippett should go somewhere else.

 

[Jakey53]

I'm moving this here so another thread doesn't go off-topic and to help avoid the playing of the moderator by those who aren't a moderator.


http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showthread.php?t=2064119&page=10



This is overly simplistic. BB was fired from 2 teams where coaching really isn't the problem but the GM and the players are more the problem. The Capitals haven't made it past the 2nd Round in quite sometime and not even the current coach can get the team past the 2nd Round. Will the Caps make it to the ECF this time around? We'll see! If they don't, then BB looks more like the better coach seeing that he has success with finally getting to a conference final last season with a different team though out in the 1st round this time around.

Tippett was never expected to coach a team to the best lotto pick possible but was always expected to make the playoffs and more regardless of what he has to deal with. His shelf-life with the team has been gone for quite sometime. BB is a much better fit than Tippett now for this franchise and Tippett should go somewhere else.

Give your head a shake. There are coaches that are as good or better than DT, but it sure in hell is not BB.