Coaching is a serious problem.

Paddyjack

Registered User
Dec 10, 2007
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I think I remember one or two poster predicting the playoffs.

Most people are predicting 80-90 points. Improving on last year but not making the postseason. I have us around 85 points. I don’t think that’s unrealistic.
The Caps made the playoffs with 91 pts. We had 76 pts, and thus 85 pts was seen as a realistic goal, especially since Laine and hopefully progress from our youths. That means being only 6 points short, battling the entire season. Yet people in recent posts in this thread are laughing their ass off about how unrealistic it was. A bit of luck for once on our side and it could have been possible, if unlikely.
 

Trenbohabs

Registered User
Sep 25, 2024
90
75
I never said Matheson was a Norris candidate, but I was responding to your assertion that he isn't even a top 4 - why is absurd by any metric.
Tell me which contending team the great turnover machine Matheson is a top 4 LD? Good luck finding a spot for him.
 

morhilane

Registered User
Feb 28, 2021
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so, are we making the payoffs. I haven't watch a game this season, are we better than last season?
No, yes, maybe...

PP and PK are much better, top 10 in the league currently.
200 feet 5v5 was bottom of the league until the last two games where it got much better.

Tied in points and record with like half the league right now. So the team is both very near a playoffs spot and very far a playoffs spot. :laugh:
 
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Gaud

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May 11, 2017
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Yeah but he was a winger
agreed, but he was originally sold to us as a winger that can be a Center, as if they solved hte center issue

Kinda like Philly last season.

I don't see Habs making da playoffs. I want them to because I am sick of the "rebuild" but they're not gonna. And I think the main reason is because coaching stuff is trying to fit the square peg into a round hole. They do NOT have the right players to play that hybrid whatever system. as everyone says, they have a ton of rookies and rookies need "simple and structured".
Basically i think Mtl needs a bunch of MSL type "creative" players with high hockey IQ to make it work - which we dont and wont have. Square peg in a round hole indeed.
 

CharleyHorse

Registered User
Sep 28, 2022
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I never said Matheson was a Norris candidate, but I was responding to your assertion that he isn't even a top 4 - why is absurd by any metric.
It's not absurd, in fact, there's no way that a 60+point D(and on pace for 73 point this season) doesn't play PP minutes on another team, SC-contending or not - that's just crazy talk.
 

salbutera

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Sep 10, 2019
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Tell me which contending team the great turnover machine Matheson is a top 4 LD? Good luck finding a spot for him.
Avs, Edm, Make Beliefs, LAK…

Has the thought crossed your mind maybe if Matheson isn’t expected to play 25TOI and instead reduced to 20TOI on a “contending team” with more experience & depth…. might result in less wear & tear, alas less turnovers?
 
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morhilane

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Feb 28, 2021
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Avs, Edm, Make Beliefs, LAK…

Has the thought crossed your mind maybe if Matheson isn’t expected to play 25TOI and instead reduced to 20TOI on a “contending team” with more experience & depth…. might result in less wear & tear, alas less turnovers?
Matheson's "dumbass vs good decisions" ratio increase the more he's tired, so yes.
 

Sorinth

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Jan 18, 2013
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Avs, Edm, Make Beliefs, LAK…

Has the thought crossed your mind maybe if Matheson isn’t expected to play 25TOI and instead reduced to 20TOI on a “contending team” with more experience & depth…. might result in less wear & tear, alas less turnovers?
If you think that less ice time will fix the turnovers you're fooling yourself. He was making just as many turnovers when he was in Florida and Pittsburgh and playing those 20min. His turnovers aren't the result of being tired, or facing good players, they are brain farts plain and simple.

That said there's more to playing good defence then limiting your bad turnovers, and Matheson is actually quite good defensively and yes he would be in the top-4 for pretty much every contender.
 

Trenbohabs

Registered User
Sep 25, 2024
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You're right, I much rather have Jake McCabe.....
I didnt know the leafs were a contending team? Nobody has ever put them contenders since 5 years, as they won 2 rounds. I said contenders, not playoffs teams

If you think that less ice time will fix the turnovers you're fooling yourself. He was making just as many turnovers when he was in Florida and Pittsburgh and playing those 20min. His turnovers aren't the result of being tired, or facing good players, they are brain farts plain and simple.

That said there's more to playing good defence then limiting your bad turnovers, and Matheson is actually quite good defensively and yes he would be in the top-4 for pretty much every contender.
So a top 4 D in a contender team was given away by a bad team? Explain why he was traded for peanuts? Matheson is not good if you analyse every shift.
 

Sorinth

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Jan 18, 2013
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So a top 4 D in a contender team was given away by a bad team? Explain why he was traded for peanuts? Matheson is not good if you analyse every shift.
Because Pittsburgh thought they were getting an even better D in return, someone who at the time of the trade a big part of a SC run and was arguably a top-pairing, or #3 guy at worst for 4 years before one bad half season under Ducharme which he turned around when MSL took over.

And if you analyze every shift instead of just focusing on the turnovers you will see he's actually very good defensively.
 

Trenbohabs

Registered User
Sep 25, 2024
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Because Pittsburgh thought they were getting an even better D in return, someone who at the time of the trade a big part of a SC run and was arguably a top-pairing, or #3 guy at worst for 4 years before one bad half season under Ducharme which he turned around when MSL took over.

And if you analyze every shift instead of just focusing on the turnovers you will see he's actually very good defensively.
Organisations are experts with their staff, if Matheson had a value they wouldve gotten alot more than Petry IMO. Yes Matheson defensively is OK, but without his skating, he isnt in the NHL IMO
 

Jeune Poulet

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Oct 31, 2019
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Matheson's "dumbass vs good decisions" ratio increase the more he's tired
It's the same for all players, really.

The link between mental mistakes and how tired you are is not intuitive for people who haven't been athletes but it's a definitely factor.

Mike Matheson was 5th in the entire league for ice time per game last season. I've only heard and read great things about his conditioning but that's a tall order for anybody. He definitely tends to struggle more in the third period when he's tired and that's the period fans usually remember the most in a game.

We're extremely lucky to have Matheson, the last few seasons. He has been counted on at a time of need for us with a crop of D rookies, and has played well above his pay grade on top of being a solid leader on and off the ice.
 

Captain Mountain

Formerly Captain Wolverine
Jun 6, 2010
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If you think that less ice time will fix the turnovers you're fooling yourself. He was making just as many turnovers when he was in Florida and Pittsburgh and playing those 20min. His turnovers aren't the result of being tired, or facing good players, they are brain farts plain and simple.

That said there's more to playing good defence then limiting your bad turnovers, and Matheson is actually quite good defensively and yes he would be in the top-4 for pretty much every contender.

From what we know of giveaway data, Matheson turned over the puck far less in Pittsburgh than in Montreal or Florida.

The stats are far from perfect, but dumbing down the debate to over-criticizing specific players, especially when we know Montreal lacks talent and experience, seems like little more than venting.

Matheson has brain-farts. A fair amount of them. No one who actually watches the games can pretend otherwise. But there's the over-played element and a team element where he puts himself in bad situations trying to do stuff without support. We've seen Hutson burned even more that way this season. Montreal struggles to play as a 5 man unit in all 3 zones and they get burned by it constantly, but its not one guy, its on the team as a whole, the personnel and the coaching staff. Its also not unexpected mid-rebuild. Eventually they'll need to address it more directly, and the likeliest time was always the 2025 offseason.
 

Habs

It's going to be a long year
Feb 28, 2002
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The D is a collection of rookies and youngsters. We knew it would be ugly and it will be.

The 3rd and 4th lines don’t really need fixing. They’re fine for what they are. Goaltending? So far so good.

The big question mark is Kirby Dach and the second line. If he can regain his form that’s a huge plus. His recent games are encouraging. Hutson will help and CC seems to be back.

Put it altogether and I think we’ll improve. Not enough to make the playoffs but that’s okay.

our 3rd and 4th lines are really bad, they can't be relied on as they are made of fringe AHL players and buyout contracts. I'd like to see them bring in some bangers for next year, toughness on the bottom lines to let Demidov and the kids be a little more free out there.
 

Lafleurs Guy

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Jul 20, 2007
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our 3rd and 4th lines are really bad, they can't be relied on as they are made of fringe AHL players and buyout contracts. I'd like to see them bring in some bangers for next year, toughness on the bottom lines to let Demidov and the kids be a little more free out there.
They are typical 3rd and fourth line players. Evans is actually a pretty good 4th line center. They aren’t close to being fringe NHLers.

What they are is overpaid. Honestly though, it doesn’t really hurt us for now.

And almost all these guys aren’t in our long term plans. We’re burning off another year of their deals and that’s fine for this year.
 
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Intangir

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Aug 14, 2008
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Montreal, QC
Basically i think Mtl needs a bunch of MSL type "creative" players with high hockey IQ to make it work - which we dont and wont have. Square peg in a round hole indeed.

If your system needs creative players with high hockey IQ to be anywhere near via ble then your system is pretty trash.

A coaching scheme/system is supposed to be there to make the most of your players' strengths and try to win more games.

If you can't adapt to the roster at hand and need only a certain kind of players then you shouldn't be anywhere near an NHL coaching gig. Or you should, as a tank commander.
 

Sorinth

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Jan 18, 2013
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If your system needs creative players with high hockey IQ to be anywhere near via ble then your system is pretty trash.

A coaching scheme/system is supposed to be there to make the most of your players' strengths and try to win more games.

If you can't adapt to the roster at hand and need only a certain kind of players then you shouldn't be anywhere near an NHL coaching gig. Or you should, as a tank commander.
First off our system doesn't require high hockey IQ. Second and more to the point during a rebuild/transition years you shouldn't actually adapt your system to match the players you have because the players you have because the players you have are going to be changing quite a bit over the next few years.
 

Intangir

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Aug 14, 2008
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'tFirst off our system doesn't require high hockey IQ. Second and more to the point during a rebuild/transition years you shouldn't actually adapt your system to match the players you have because the players you have because the players you have are going to be changing quite a bit over the next few years.

Our system right now is pretty much man-to-man, with a mix of zone defense, and we're running the 1-2-2 that most teams similarly do, sprinkled-in with some amount of neutral zone pressure and whatnot. It's not rocket science.

But the way we set defensive attributions, and the lack of clarity when it comes to it all since what St. Louis advocates for (or at least did before this year) is basically a type of "position-less" hockey most prevalent in the NCAA, with some limitations suited to the NHL games (a focus on center responsibility).

All of which means that players need to make reads on the fly a lot of the times instead of having more specific roles to play on the ice.

The trade-off here is that if everybody is up to speed, then we have more flexibility both offensively and defensively since our F1s, F2s, and F3s can change on the fly and our D can permutate as well. This frees-up a lot of ice to produce offense and many variations that lead to increasing scoring.

Inversely, since adapting requires reading the play at all times, it also adds a time variable to the processing of the game for our players. Meaning that if they aren't able to react very quickly (aforementioned high requirement on hockey sense) then they actually lose tempo vs. a simpler, slightly more rigid and less flexible gameplan.

So yeah, St. Louis' system actually definitely requires more out of our players when it comes to hockey sense vs. what is most common in the NHL right now.

That system works in the NCAA, and might eventually make it to the NHL as more than the "side concept" that it is now, but that time hasn't come yet given how structured of a game eventual Stanley-Cup winners have been playing basically since the end of the 1980s.

Then comes the second part of your post.

And frankly I kind of agree in a sense. Since we're shooting for an effective gameplan once our personnel turnover is done there's no need to "cater" to our existing players per se and we should instead try to institute the gameplan that will be most conducive to wins when our roster is eventually deep and strong enough to actually contend.

But then again, the mark of a good coach is to be able to win no matter the circumstances and get the best out of his team. You don't need to adapt the system that much to the roster if you can just do some small tweaks and be "good to go".

That very inflexibility (or unwillingness to change) in strategy is one of the factors that actually characterize bad coaches from good ones.

And also, ask the Oilers, the Sabres, and other such teams' fans how much losing their focus on winning has cost them in the long term, and how much longer their rebuilds have had to be because of it.

At the end of the day you need to eventually right the ship and start going, or you get stuck in the mud, lose traction, and have to do it all over again. And that requires winning some hockey games, which requires both better personnel, but also at least competent coaching.
 
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Habs

It's going to be a long year
Feb 28, 2002
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They are typical 3rd and fourth line players. Evans is actually a pretty good 4th line center. They aren’t close to being fringe NHLers.

What they are is overpaid. Honestly though, it doesn’t really hurt us for now.

And almost all these guys aren’t in our long term plans. We’re burning off another year of their deals and that’s fine for this year.

So you agree they are hot garbage? That's all I'm saying , our bottom lines are dysfunctional and an unacceptable collection of pleebs that need to GTFO so we can improve. We are handcuffed with them in place, and won't make the next step until we can ice a different, more aggressive look after lines 1&2

I don't mind Evans at all, and if we aren't complaining bout money then Anderson will fill some bottom minutes this year. But seriously this blueline is really bad, and without Guhle atrocious. MM has a role if he's insulated, Hutson obviously and Arbs looks like he needs a session with Dr Phil for his PTSD. The rest are bottom dwelling blueliners that need to disappear and are all replaceable shortly. Struble is 'meh' as a 5-6 , nothing special at all.
 
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Captain Mountain

Formerly Captain Wolverine
Jun 6, 2010
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So you agree they are hot garbage? That's all I'm saying , our bottom lines are dysfunctional and an unacceptable collection of pleebs that need to GTFO so we can improve. We are handcuffed with them in place, and won't make the next step until we can ice a different, more aggressive look after lines 1&2

I don't mind Evans at all, and if we aren't complaining bout money then Anderson will fill some bottom minutes this year. But seriously this blueline is really bad, and without Guhle atrocious. MM has a role if he's insulated, Hutson obviously and Arbs looks like he needs a session with Dr Phil for his PTSD. The rest are bottom dwelling blueliners that need to disappear and are all replaceable shortly. Struble is 'meh' as a 5-6 , nothing special at all.

Out of curiosity, who do you think Montreal's 2nd line is?

Because the bigger issue is that Montreal doesn't really have one ATM.
 
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Captain Mountain

Formerly Captain Wolverine
Jun 6, 2010
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To finish the thought:

The lack of a 2nd line at present moves 3rd & 4th lines up the pyramid to seats they’re not supposed to be occupying…

Right. Montreal, like virtually every single team in the middle of a rebuild, lacks depth. But the issue is less bottom of the lineup depth, its top of the lineup or middle of the lineup depth. And Montreal's not going to get that unless they get somewhat healthy, continue drafting and developing guys, and adding vets.
 

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