Coaching Discussion: Jon Cooper - Part 2

[More 2004]

We've devolved into Buffalo and Toronto fans, "it'll be different next year"

We have three cups.. there is a huge difference.

 

[Sky04]

We have three cups.. there is a huge difference.

... and Toronto has 13? that's not the point.

 

[More 2004]

... and Toronto has 13? that's not the point.

REally should have said 2 cups.. They have 0 with their current group.

point being we have been completely spoiled the last 10 years.

 

[RMF5630]

We have three cups.. there is a huge difference.

How long do we live on the last cup? Do we have to keep with the same plan until the "core" retire and Cooper walks away?

At what point do you lose in a playoffs and say this ain't working. Tell me how do you propose getting past FLA? Besides Cooper's, oh well they are better, it's their time...

Is that attitude acceptable from your Coach? "Well it was us, now it them. "

That is not what I want my Coach's attitude to be. I would prefer, it may not be us but it damn well won't be FLA...

 

[More 2004]

How long do we live on the last cup? Do we have to keep with the same plan until the "core" retire and Cooper walks away?

At what point do you lose in a playoffs and say this ain't working. Tell me how do you propose getting past FLA? Besides Cooper's, oh well they are better, it's their time...

Is that attitude acceptable from your Coach? "Well it was us, now it them. "

That is not what I want my Coach's attitude to be. I would prefer, it may not be us but it damn well won't be FLA...

We lead the league (or were in top 5) in many of the important metrics.. we were pounded by injuries in the first round.

We have a hall of fame coach behind the bench, we have another offseason to add a key role player or two.

Don't forget 2019. We aren't riding the coat tails of our last cup, we are retooling and going to get it again, just like Pittsburgh did after a couple of down years. JBB knows wtf he is doing. I am here for it.

 

[Crunchrulz]

We lead the league (or were in top 5) in many of the important metrics.. we were pounded by injuries in the first round.

We have a hall of fame coach behind the bench, we have another offseason to add a key role player or two.

Don't forget 2019. We aren't riding the coat tails of our last cup, we are retooling and going to get it again, just like Pittsburgh did after a couple of down years. JBB knows wtf he is doing. I am here for it.

Given the Penguins have not won a playoff round since 2019, including not making the playoffs the last three straight seasons while holding on to aging fan favorites, you might be spot on with your forecast for the future of the Lightning UNLESS they make major changes.

 

[RMF5630]

We lead the league (or were in top 5) in many of the important metrics.. we were pounded by injuries in the first round.

We have a hall of fame coach behind the bench, we have another offseason to add a key role player or two.

Don't forget 2019. We aren't riding the coat tails of our last cup, we are retooling and going to get it again, just like Pittsburgh did after a couple of down years. JBB knows wtf he is doing. I am here for it.

Look at your answer. It is all about regular Season and what Cooper did.

You know NHL is about playoffs. Leading in regular season metrics and losing in 1st round multiple years is a recipe for getting fired.

Why did we have all those injuries? Why have our big guns not show up in the playoffs? It is a scheme and roster issue. We cannot match FLA physicality and even protect our players. Until that is addressed the rest means nothing. It is #2 or 3rd seed and losing in round 1 or 2.

 

[RMF5630]

We lead the league (or were in top 5) in many of the important metrics.. we were pounded by injuries in the first round.

We have a hall of fame coach behind the bench, we have another offseason to add a key role player or two.

Don't forget 2019. We aren't riding the coat tails of our last cup, we are retooling and going to get it again, just like Pittsburgh did after a couple of down years. JBB knows wtf he is doing. I am here for it.

Ok, retool. Lets admit it and move some older players to get young again. No issues. But paying the "core" what we are is not going to help us win in the playoffs. Too high a percentage is going to too few players. They

Given the Penguins have not won a playoff round since 2019, including not making the playoffs the last three straight seasons while holding on to aging fan favorites, you might be spot on with your forecast for the future of the Lightning UNLESS they make major changes.

Bingo! We have too much of the cap to too few players on the wrong side of 30. We are bringing on 34 year old journeymen to fill out roster.

 

[LightningStrikes]

We lead the league (or were in top 5) in many of the important metrics.. we were pounded by injuries in the first round.

We have a hall of fame coach behind the bench, we have another offseason to add a key role player or two.

Don't forget 2019. We aren't riding the coat tails of our last cup, we are retooling and going to get it again, just like Pittsburgh did after a couple of down years. JBB knows wtf he is doing. I am here for it.

I mostly agree with your take. I see just one problem: We all thought we had another gear for the playoffs but instead there was no gear. We couldn’t elevate our game and play up to our opponent. The matchup was telegraphed for almost the entire season, it was either gonna be Toronto or Florida, and we seemed unprepared and surprised with how Florida played.

 

[More 2004]

I mostly agree with your take. I see just one problem: We all thought we had another gear for the playoffs but instead there was no gear. We couldn’t elevate our game and play up to our opponent. The matchup was telegraphed for almost the entire season, it was either gonna be Toronto or Florida, and we seemed unprepared and surprised with how Florida played.

I hate to make excuses, but hagel missed half the damn series and Bjorkstrand didn't play a single minute. That injury list was pretty long as well. I know every team has inuries, I just think ours were worse, and to all of the wrong guys.

 

[LightningStrikes]

I hate to make excuses, but hagel missed half the damn series and Bjorkstrand didn't play a single minute. That injury list was pretty long as well. I know every team has inuries, I just think ours were worse, and to all of the wrong guys.

While the long list of injuries certainly played a big part in our early exit (and I think the main part) there were still basic and structural issues. We seemed unprepared and unable to adapt to Florida in almost all facets of the game.

 

[RMF5630]

I hate to make excuses, but hagel missed half the damn series and Bjorkstrand didn't play a single minute. That injury list was pretty long as well. I know every team has inuries, I just think ours were worse, and to all of the wrong guys.

You think that is an accident? You think Hagel getting an elbow to the head or Storez for TOR just happens. That is what I am talking about, FLA targets key personnel and elbows mistakenly find heads.

Lets talk injuries. Read this article. This seem normal? Either we are getting too old, playing the wrong scheme for our talent or we are not able to protect our players. You do not become a walking wounded every year on accident.

Lightning suffered myriad injuries vs. Panthers, Julien BriseBois says

Notes | Oliver Bjorkstrand’s injured thigh required emergency surgery in early April, according to the general manager.

www.tampabay.com

 

[Stammertime91]

Ive been saying this since round 1... Florida has some serious New Orleans Saints type energy going on. Like bounty on a players head. And to reiterate this part, there are hockey plays, playing on the edge, and then intent to injure. How is it that the Panthers are literally injuring at least one impact player per series to the point where they dont return? Its not wear and tear from physicality, there were two headshots that resulted in concussions. No doubt they are physical but thats not what bothers me. The part that bothers me are the Ekblad elbows unnecessarily after a player scores. Its the boarding players that are incredibly vulnerable like Mikkola and Bennett. And they dont give one f*** what happens to that person's career. They just take the 2min or 5min penalty, shrug their shoulders and move on - winning. To me, that's not hockey. It never was playing it and i was physical when I played. The mikkola hit on girgensons was disgraceful. You're a big guy but you legit charge and board a dude on his knees in the back. Why? Cause as long as you hurt the player, you've done your part.

Last but not least, whoever on florida gets their career shortened or concussed next is going to get a barrage of what goes around comes around attention. Florida is by far the dirtiest team in the 22 years I've watched hockey. They make 2011 Boston look like angels.

 

[Felonious Python]

Ive been saying this since round 1... Florida has some serious New Orleans Saints type energy going on. Like bounty on a players head. And to reiterate this part, there are hockey plays, playing on the edge, and then intent to injure. How is it that the Panthers are literally injuring at least one impact player per series to the point where they dont return? Its not wear and tear from physicality, there were two headshots that resulted in concussions. No doubt they are physical but thats not what bothers me. The part that bothers me are the Ekblad elbows unnecessarily after a player scores. Its the boarding players that are incredibly vulnerable like Mikkola and Bennett. And they dont give one f*** what happens to that person's career. They just take the 2min or 5min penalty, shrug their shoulders and move on - winning. To me, that's not hockey. It never was playing it and i was physical when I played. The mikkola hit on girgensons was disgraceful. You're a big guy but you legit charge and board a dude on his knees in the back. Why? Cause as long as you hurt the player, you've done your part.

Last but not least, whoever on florida gets their career shortened or concussed next is going to get a barrage of what goes around comes around attention. Florida is by far the dirtiest team in the 22 years I've watched hockey. They make 2011 Boston look like angels.

What's kind of interesting is that the Hurricanes under Paul Maurice got a reputation as a bunch of divers. I guess there was a realization that penalties aren't going to get called.

 

[RMF5630]

Ive been saying this since round 1... Florida has some serious New Orleans Saints type energy going on. Like bounty on a players head. And to reiterate this part, there are hockey plays, playing on the edge, and then intent to injure. How is it that the Panthers are literally injuring at least one impact player per series to the point where they dont return? Its not wear and tear from physicality, there were two headshots that resulted in concussions. No doubt they are physical but thats not what bothers me. The part that bothers me are the Ekblad elbows unnecessarily after a player scores. Its the boarding players that are incredibly vulnerable like Mikkola and Bennett. And they dont give one f*** what happens to that person's career. They just take the 2min or 5min penalty, shrug their shoulders and move on - winning. To me, that's not hockey. It never was playing it and i was physical when I played. The mikkola hit on girgensons was disgraceful. You're a big guy but you legit charge and board a dude on his knees in the back. Why? Cause as long as you hurt the player, you've done your part.

Last but not least, whoever on florida gets their career shortened or concussed next is going to get a barrage of what goes around comes around attention. Florida is by far the dirtiest team in the 22 years I've watched hockey. They make 2011 Boston look like angels.

And that is what we need to get through to advance. Maurice is a smug, thug. He counts on Cooper being Cooper. How do you overcome that? You need to be just as physical and make FLA pay physically. The score a goal doesn't work because they turtle up and start fanning the sticks, TB wants to pass and be creative. Not happening against FLA. You need McKinnon type power forwards that will crash the net. We are not built that way. To beat FLA, you play 1980's Eastern Conference hockey. Can Cooper do that? Can JBB build a roster for that?

 

[Felonious Python]

And that is what we need to get through to advance. Maurice is a smug, thug. He counts on Cooper being Cooper. How do you overcome that? You need to be just as physical and make FLA pay physically. The score a goal doesn't work because they turtle up and start fanning the sticks, TB wants to pass and be creative. Not happening against FLA. You need McKinnon type power forwards that will crash the net. We are not built that way. To beat FLA, you play 1980's Eastern Conference hockey. Can Cooper do that? Can JBB build a roster for that?

I think we're sort of underplaying how much influence the GMs have on the department of player safety. If they were okay with handing out 5-10 games, instead of 1-2 game suspensions, then we'd have it.

https://www.cbc.ca/sports/hockey/nhl/small-group-of-gms-unhappy-with-shanahan-hotstove-1.975887

Shanahan, who was given a mandate to deliver stiffer penalties for those players targeting the head, has dished out 31 games in suspensions, totalling $701,682.56 US in salary.

"I spoke to almost a third of the general managers today and I was a little bit surprised to find out that there is a group of them that has gone to [NHL commissioner] Gary Bettman and [deputy commissioner] Bill Daly and made it very clear that they are very unhappy with the way that Brendan Shanahan has handled [the length] of the suspensions," Francis said.

"The [suspensions] are pretty harsh and a lot of people agree with that — fans and media are definitely on board — but there’s a group of GMs that have gone and complained. They wanted the bar set high — they made that clear in their agenda in the summer. However, they didn’t want it 'doubled and tripled' in the words of one general manager who really teed off on Brendan today."

Maybe the GMs can reevaluate, since it's been more than a decade.

NHL rules affect the way the game is called at every level in NA, so they have more of a responsibility.

 

[RMF5630]

I think we're sort of underplaying how much influence the GMs have on the department of player safety. If they were okay with handing out 5-10 games, instead of 1-2 game suspensions, then we'd have it.

https://www.cbc.ca/sports/hockey/nhl/small-group-of-gms-unhappy-with-shanahan-hotstove-1.975887

Maybe the GMs can reevaluate, since it's been more than a decade.

NHL rules affect the way the game is called at every level in NA, so they have more of a responsibility.

I think you are right, because if they don't the Teams will. If this keeps up, we will migrate back to 197o's Broad Street Bullies. You want to bring in Eckblade and Nikkla, we will have to bring in guys who can dish it out.

My favorite is Tom Wilson, as he is a legit hockey player as well as enforcer. We miss Maroon. I really thought Jeannaut under Maroon's mentorship would give us a little grit. We do not have that and miss it. Cernak is not an enforcer. We really miss a checking line thatn can just go out and hammer people when needed.

 

[Felonious Python]

I think you are right, because if they don't the Teams will. If this keeps up, we will migrate back to 197o's Broad Street Bullies. You want to bring in Eckblade and Nikkla, we will have to bring in guys who can dish it out.

My favorite is Tom Wilson, as he is a legit hockey player as well as enforcer. We miss Maroon. I really thought Jeannaut under Maroon's mentorship would give us a little grit. We do not have that and miss it. Cernak is not an enforcer. We really miss a checking line thatn can just go out and hammer people when needed.

I don't know the GMs personalities too well, but I think that there'd be a solid bloc of them (and star players) right now who could push for head contact reform.

It probably wouldn't be that big of a shock to the system at this point. The NCAA has its own rules, and their game hasn't completely lost its edge.

 

[RMF5630]

I don't know the GMs personalities too well, but I think that there'd be a solid bloc of them (and star players) right now who could push for head contact reform.

It probably wouldn't be that big of a shock to the system at this point. The NCAA has its own rules, and their game hasn't completely lost its edge.

I agree. Both Stolarz and Hagel's hits to the head were series changing and put the player at great risk. Both Bennett and PED-Boy Eckblad have reputations for this type of behavior. The Nikkla boarding was criminal.

 

[Stammertime91]

And that is what we need to get through to advance. Maurice is a smug, thug. He counts on Cooper being Cooper. How do you overcome that? You need to be just as physical and make FLA pay physically. The score a goal doesn't work because they turtle up and start fanning the sticks, TB wants to pass and be creative. Not happening against FLA. You need McKinnon type power forwards that will crash the net. We are not built that way. To beat FLA, you play 1980's Eastern Conference hockey. Can Cooper do that? Can JBB build a roster for that?

Honestly, he'd have to take a few you know what's outta his mouth to do it. He's too over the moon about Point, Cirelli, etc to introduce a huge shake up to the top 6. Hagel, Guentzel and Kucherov need some bigger bodies up top with them. And whatever the bottom six was, needs to not return. A much different looking bottom 6 is needed to compete with Florida. We just dont have the brass, IQ or identity to do it.

Our defense being a bit tougher would be nice. I wish our most physical defenseman wasn't made of glass...

I think JBB certainly *can* but he wont because of NMCs, fan reactions and the high risk trades it would take.

 

[RMF5630]

Honestly, he'd have to take a few you know what's outta his mouth to do it. He's too over the moon about Point, Cirelli, etc to introduce a huge shake up to the top 6. Hagel, Guentzel and Kucherov need some bigger bodies up top with them. And whatever the bottom six was, needs to not return. A much different looking bottom 6 is needed to compete with Florida. We just dont have the brass, IQ or identity to do it.

Our defense being a bit tougher would be nice. I wish our most physical defenseman wasn't made of glass...

I think JBB certainly *can* but he wont because of NMCs, fan reactions and the high risk trades it would take.

This is the most honest assessment I have seen in this thread. I agree. I do not see the Point and Cirelli love. Point is a 2nd Line C and Cirielli should be on the 3rd line and penalty kill.

There are some frontline young bottom 6 pieces. Gonglaves, Geekie Chaffee are all young and can fit, maybe not 1st line.

On the Blueline I like Moser at 24, Cernek at 27, and I can see Raddysh at 29 in a lower pair.

So, how many can he add?

We have 3 Quality top 6 wingers in Kuech, Hagel and Guentzle. Plus 1 mid-level in Bjorkstrand
We have NO top line C's. We have 3 2-4 line C's in Point, Paul, and Cirelli.

We never replaced Stamkos. We replaced his Offense but NOT his position. That left a gap.

So, I would like to see a top line C and some bottom 6 players. Maybe even a whole checking line from outside of the organization! Another D'man or 2 that can hold up at the Blueline. Hedman, Raddysh can push up ice.

 

[JTBF81]

Point is very much a top line C, and the team isn't really that old. Being 30 is no big deal. The only key Tampa players who are in or approaching age related issues are Hedman and McD. The team has done a fair effective job of not re-signing older players to boat anchor deals (Palat,Killorn, Stamkos), and JBB has usually only brought in older depth pieces due to cap constraints. None of the just turned 30 or just over 30 players are getting moved, and now that JBB will have some cap space this summer, he should be able to add more than.just min contract players to bottom 6 depth roles.

 

[bov]

McBain would be a good fit for the bottom 6.

 

[Crunchrulz]

We just completed our THIRD straight post season of one and done excuses.

At what point does the fan base and organization finally wake up and realize the current underperforming highly paid core roster is not going to get this team any further in the post season without dealing one or two of them to create cap space to bring in decent support to supplement those who are left?

 

[Coopers Gum]

Yeah, the way JBB has talked, especially lately, I can't really see him dealing Cirelli, sadly. So I'm not sure if we'll get any better next year. He's the piece to move, though.

JBB seems to really like him.