Coaching Discussion: Jon Cooper - Part 2

[PJ817]

This year however, I put on JBB for not managing the cap better, starting with how he handled the McD trade and many moves after that. He did great with the Hagel trade and contract, and Paul and Eyssimont have been good additions, but it's not nearly enough.

I'm ready for JBB to go. I don't have faith in him to manage the retooling/rebuilding.

Yzerplan Years:
2011: drafted Kuch, Pally, Names, signed TyJo
2012: drafted Vasy
2013: trade Conacher to OTT for Ben Bishop; also drafted Drouin
2014: trades MSL to Rangers for 1st, 2nd and Cally (one of the picks was for Cirelli); drafted #21
2015: gets more from Rangers
2016: get a few others
2017: trades Drouin for Sergey
2018: trades Names, Howden, and pick and somebody else for JT Miller and McD

Resigned Stammer, Heddy and Kuch for less than value in 2016...

JBB? gets fleeced

Not saying that Yzerman didn't do a few screwy things... just can't name them off the top of my head

JBB? McD will forever... nvm

 

[These Are The Days]

You would love the Toronto Maple Leafs if you gave them a chance.

They're SAWFT. Absolutely not. I'm literally just asking what would be the equivalent of Guy Boucher to run something else other than the 1-3-1 in the coming weeks before his firing. That team sucked at "da system" too. Different forecheck but same outcome

 

[Stammertime91]

Yzerplan Years:
2011: drafted Kuch, Pally, Names, signed TyJo
2012: drafted Vasy
2013: trade Conacher to OTT for Ben Bishop; also drafted Drouin
2014: trades MSL to Rangers for 1st, 2nd and Cally (one of the picks was for Cirelli); drafted #21
2015: gets more from Rangers
2016: get a few others
2017: trades Drouin for Sergey
2018: trades Names, Howden, and pick and somebody else for JT Miller and McD

Resigned Stammer, Heddy and Kuch for less than value in 2016...

JBB? gets fleeced

Not saying that Yzerman didn't do a few screwy things... just can't name them off the top of my head

JBB? McD will forever... nvm

Yzerman and the people around him were magic for this franchise. They absolutely hit in ways you don't really replicate. They obviously missed a lot on 1st rounders and some talent that parted ways, but the team he built has last nearly twelve years from its' core and the trades to get certain picks. JBB has a long way to go to resemble anything like that. Granted, he gets credit for being part of that and doing what he needed to for two cups, but he is gutting the team and we have plateaued the last two years. There are imo four forward spots that should be open and plenty of cap space to work with if he swallows his pride and wants to go the UFA route. It starts with clearing the dead weight.

He definitely struck gold with Hagel and his contract, but the 3 contracts, Jeannot, and the last FA period were all tragic. Dumba was bargain bin shopping and it came up short. Moving on from Bogosian and Maroon were idiotic moves. Neither have had a comparable replacement imo. I'm all for giving JBB time to rectify these moves, but it definitely feels like if Vinik is looking at him and Cooper for answers on why we are sputtering, JBB is getting the bulk of the blame.

 

[PJ817]

Moving on from Bogosian and Maroon were idiotic moves. Neither have had a comparable replacement imo. I'm all for giving JBB time to rectify these moves, but it definitely feels like if Vinik is looking at him and Cooper for answers on why we are sputtering, JBB is getting the bulk of the blame.

Sadly, we went from being "the" place to play to where no one wants to come.

People know what happened with McD and I have to think, that raised a lot of questions in the PLAYERS' minds... Playing for Coop isn't the issue, having JBB as the GM IS. If he'll do that to McD, what's he gonna do with a non-2-cup player?

Vinik should be beyond miffed - he loves owning the team and the GM is destroying all the good will that Vinik built.

As for the BOLD part? I'm not. Not sure who would be a good GM that also has the relationship with Coop that JBB does... I would have said Trotz but he's firmly entrenched in Nashville. Langenbrunner? AGM of Bruins? I mean he got Maroon to go there so he has some taste

 

[EmptyNetAssassin]

I wanted Cooper to be fired in 2017 as well. I'll expect the next coach who's team gets swept in the first round after finishing the regular season as the best overall to get fired as well, whether it's our team or not. To me Cooper owns that failure just as much as he gets to own the two cup wins afterward. We had an incredibly talented team - we may have had more than 2 cups under another coach, or less or none, we'll never know. But Cooper couldn't complain about lack of depth that year.

This year however, I put on JBB for not managing the cap better, starting with how he handled the McD trade and many moves after that. He did great with the Hagel trade and contract, and Paul and Eyssimont have been good additions, but it's not nearly enough.

I'm ready for JBB to go. I don't have faith in him to manage the retooling/rebuilding.

He had a terrible 1.5 years with the fa signings, trades, and extending jeannot for almost 3.5 times the salary he was making. This will be the offseasin that gets gim fired or extended after next season.

 

[Stammertime91]

Sadly, we went from being "the" place to play to where no one wants to come.

People know what happened with McD and I have to think, that raised a lot of questions in the PLAYERS' minds... Playing for Coop isn't the issue, having JBB as the GM IS. If he'll do that to McD, what's he gonna do with a non-2-cup player?

Vinik should be beyond miffed - he loves owning the team and the GM is destroying all the good will that Vinik built.

As for the BOLD part? I'm not. Not sure who would be a good GM that also has the relationship with Coop that JBB does... I would have said Trotz but he's firmly entrenched in Nashville. Langenbrunner? AGM of Bruins? I mean he got Maroon to go there so he has some taste

I give him two more seasons, tops. Anything less is expedited by another Jeannot-like blunder or more failed UFA signings. McD was a cap casualty. The only argument there is Sergachev/Cirelli vs. McD. Either one being moved wouldn't have been world ending at the expense of McDonagh staying with the team. I'm inclined to think McDonagh against Toronto last year doesn't shit the bed as bad as Ian Cole before OT. That's all hypothetical but I get the point with moving McDonagh. I was not a fan of it then, still not seeing as he can still play at a high level now.

 

[Todd1a]

Yzerplan Years:
2011: drafted Kuch, Pally, Names, signed TyJo
2012: drafted Vasy
2013: trade Conacher to OTT for Ben Bishop; also drafted Drouin
2014: trades MSL to Rangers for 1st, 2nd and Cally (one of the picks was for Cirelli); drafted #21
2015: gets more from Rangers
2016: get a few others
2017: trades Drouin for Sergey
2018: trades Names, Howden, and pick and somebody else for JT Miller and McD

Resigned Stammer, Heddy and Kuch for less than value in 2016...

JBB? gets fleeced

Not saying that Yzerman didn't do a few screwy things... just can't name them off the top of my head

JBB? McD will forever... nvm

The trade for lindback if I recall yzerman traded 3 second rounders for him lol that Callahan contract was bad also I like the guy but we overpaid in length and cap

 

[PJ817]

The trade for lindback if I recall yzerman traded 3 second rounders for him lol that Callahan contract was bad also I like the guy but we overpaid in length and cap

But without Cally, we don't get the other Rangers that helped mold the personality of the team

And we have no personality on the team now - no identity - no sense of belonging - just a bunch of good hockey players, thrown together with a coach that is somehow is expected to build the character of the team

Yzerman, to me, knew that great hockey teams are more than a combo of good players...

 

[Todd1a]

But without Cally, we don't get the other Rangers that helped mold the personality of the team

And we have no personality on the team now - no identity - no sense of belonging - just a bunch of good hockey players, thrown together with a coach that is somehow is expected to build the character of the team

Yzerman, to me, knew that great hockey teams are more than a combo of good players...

Agree but also without the Coleman and goodrow trades I don’t think we win both cups those guys were great on line 3 teams couldn’t stop them

 

[Stelio Kontos]

People can shit on JBB but Cooper has a big say in these roster moves. We’ve brought back Namestnikov and Sustr for gods sake. We signed sheary because Cooper wanted a 5’8 midget in the bottom 6 ala Tyler Johnson.

He’s a winner but those two cup winning teams were completely stacked and on a mission regardless of who was coaching.

 

[Zwui21]

 

[LTIR Trickery]

Sadly, we went from being "the" place to play to where no one wants to come.

People know what happened with McD and I have to think, that raised a lot of questions in the PLAYERS' minds... Playing for Coop isn't the issue, having JBB as the GM IS. If he'll do that to McD, what's he gonna do with a non-2-cup player?

Vinik should be beyond miffed - he loves owning the team and the GM is destroying all the good will that Vinik built.

As for the BOLD part? I'm not. Not sure who would be a good GM that also has the relationship with Coop that JBB does... I would have said Trotz but he's firmly entrenched in Nashville. Langenbrunner? AGM of Bruins? I mean he got Maroon to go there so he has some taste

According to who, you? lmao

 

[Felonious Python]

Sadly, we went from being "the" place to play to where no one wants to come.

People know what happened with McD and I have to think, that raised a lot of questions in the PLAYERS' minds... Playing for Coop isn't the issue, having JBB as the GM IS. If he'll do that to McD, what's he gonna do with a non-2-cup player?

Vinik should be beyond miffed - he loves owning the team and the GM is destroying all the good will that Vinik built.

As for the BOLD part? I'm not. Not sure who would be a good GM that also has the relationship with Coop that JBB does... I would have said Trotz but he's firmly entrenched in Nashville. Langenbrunner? AGM of Bruins? I mean he got Maroon to go there so he has some taste

Doesn't seem to be an issue for Vegas.

 

[LTIR Trickery]

People can shit on JBB but Cooper has a big say in these roster moves. We’ve brought back Namestnikov and Sustr for gods sake. We signed sheary because Cooper wanted a 5’8 midget in the bottom 6 ala Tyler Johnson.

He’s a winner but those two cup winning teams were completely stacked and on a mission regardless of who was coaching.

So you think Sheary was just Cooper going rogue and demanding small forwards? What planet are you people on? They signed him because he scored 14, 19, and 15 goals over the last 3 seasons - right at the target production we wanted for a third line tweener. It just so happened he didn't pan out like expected, and I don't see them moving him or getting anything of value for him, so lets hope next season he'll pull a Hagel and produce.

He had a terrible 1.5 years with the fa signings, trades, and extending jeannot for almost 3.5 times the salary he was making. This will be the offseasin that gets gim fired or extended after next season.

Don't buy it, not even a little. He got fantastic value out of Glendening, Watson, and Eyssi. He got a decent bottom pairing guy in de Haan, but that went out the window when de Haan had to play above his level. I have no issues saying the man has made some missteps on signings, but calling it terrible is just hurt feelings after this season.

Don't think for a second that guys don't want to play here - its still a premier spot, for a number of reasons, the only thing stopping us is the salary cap.

 

[These Are The Days]

Perfect. Good. We don't need to make on anyway. We just need different assistants. Even Todd Richards and Rick Bowness only got like 3 years with him. It's just time for him to hear different voices that help him guide the decisions of the team

 

[Stammertime91]

So you think Sheary was just Cooper going rogue and demanding small forwards? What planet are you people on? They signed him because he scored 14, 19, and 15 goals over the last 3 seasons - right at the target production we wanted for a third line tweener. It just so happened he didn't pan out like expected, and I don't see them moving him or getting anything of value for him, so lets hope next season he'll pull a Hagel and produce.

Don't buy it, not even a little. He got fantastic value out of Glendening, Watson, and Eyssi. He got a decent bottom pairing guy in de Haan, but that went out the window when de Haan had to play above his level. I have no issues saying the man has made some missteps on signings, but calling it terrible is just hurt feelings after this season.

Don't think for a second that guys don't want to play here - its still a premier spot, for a number of reasons, the only thing stopping us is the salary cap.

Agreed, but dead weight and players that aren't contributors should be expendable. Our bottom six is lacking. The guys with size are not good, the small guys are fast but not incredibly productive. Eyssimont, Paul, and Glendening are fine. Motte lived up to his contract but I would rather explore another option. To me, he's a clone of Glendening without face-off abilities. The bottom six is lifeless in terms of wearing down the opponent.

 

[Antiramie]

 

[PJ817]

Doesn't seem to be an issue for Vegas.

good point after what they did to

 

[NJBolt]

Been lurking here for years for news and updates. Haven't felt the need to post but I don't get all the JBB hate in here.

Lot's of complaining about the Jeannot trade and Sheary signing. Valid complaints. You could add the Myers signing to that also. All bad.

The David Savard trade probably wasn't worth it but the Lightning won the cup so whatever, right? Not re-signing Carter Verhaeghe.

The only trade/signing I hear JBB getting credit for is Hagel which looks good now but was berated on this board for quite some time.

Um, what about the Goodrow and Coleman trades? Without those two, there likely isn't 2 Stanley Cups. How do you forget those? Would you rather trade those cups for Nolan Foote & Ozzy Wiesblatt? Arguably, the Gourde line is one of the best 3rd lines in history and we are still trying to figure out how to replace it.

Also, how about unloading 4 years of the Tyler Johnson contract (signed by Yzerman) for Seabrooke LTIR? For months everyone was salivating over how screwed the Lightning Cap situation was. JBB didn't buy out Johnson and have 8 years of payouts over that terrible deal. Then the Seabrooke trade happened and all of the NHL sighed and said JBB lucked out AGAIN!

Swapping Paul for Joseph with the Sens? Seems to be a decent upgrade for similar money.

Not re-signing the following to large contracts that were given by their next teams:

Palat
Coleman
Goodrow
Killorn
Perry
David Savard

Sheary and Jeannot are terrible. But their contracts could both be bought out and they'd be an afterthought. You miss 100% of the shots you don't take. You win some, you lose some.

In the grand scheme of things, JBB has done an outstanding job. Look at the mess the Canadiens are still in because of those Marc Bergevin signings.

 

[EmptyNetAssassin]

So you think Sheary was just Cooper going rogue and demanding small forwards? What planet are you people on? They signed him because he scored 14, 19, and 15 goals over the last 3 seasons - right at the target production we wanted for a third line tweener. It just so happened he didn't pan out like expected, and I don't see them moving him or getting anything of value for him, so lets hope next season he'll pull a Hagel and produce.

Don't buy it, not even a little. He got fantastic value out of Glendening, Watson, and Eyssi. He got a decent bottom pairing guy in de Haan, but that went out the window when de Haan had to play above his level. I have no issues saying the man has made some missteps on signings, but calling it terrible is just hurt feelings after this season.

Don't think for a second that guys don't want to play here - its still a premier spot, for a number of reasons, the only thing stopping us is the salary cap.

Jeannot trade them extension and sheary contract were the beginning of the end. Rhe other guys were all league minimum signings. JBB Hasn't had a great move in over a season.

 

[LTIR Trickery]

Agreed, but dead weight and players that aren't contributors should be expendable. Our bottom six is lacking. The guys with size are not good, the small guys are fast but not incredibly productive. Eyssimont, Paul, and Glendening are fine. Motte lived up to his contract but I would rather explore another option. To me, he's a clone of Glendening without face-off abilities. The bottom six is lifeless in terms of wearing down the opponent.

Absolutely.

 

[Stammertime91]

Been lurking here for years for news and updates. Haven't felt the need to post but I don't get all the JBB hate in here.

Lot's of complaining about the Jeannot trade and Sheary signing. Valid complaints. You could add the Myers signing to that also. All bad.

The David Savard trade probably wasn't worth it but the Lightning won the cup so whatever, right? Not re-signing Carter Verhaeghe.

The only trade/signing I hear JBB getting credit for is Hagel which looks good now but was berated on this board for quite some time.

Um, what about the Goodrow and Coleman trades? Without those two, there likely isn't 2 Stanley Cups. How do you forget those? Would you rather trade those cups for Nolan Foote & Ozzy Wiesblatt? Arguably, the Gourde line is one of the best 3rd lines in history and we are still trying to figure out how to replace it.

Also, how about unloading 4 years of the Tyler Johnson contract (signed by Yzerman) for Seabrooke LTIR? For months everyone was salivating over how screwed the Lightning Cap situation was. JBB didn't buy out Johnson and have 8 years of payouts over that terrible deal. Then the Seabrooke trade happened and all of the NHL sighed and said JBB lucked out AGAIN!

Swapping Paul for Joseph with the Sens? Seems to be a decent upgrade for similar money.

Not re-signing the following to large contracts that were given by their next teams:

Palat
Coleman
Goodrow
Killorn
Perry
David Savard

Sheary and Jeannot are terrible. But their contracts could both be bought out and they'd be an afterthought. You miss 100% of the shots you don't take. You win some, you lose some.

In the grand scheme of things, JBB has done an outstanding job. Look at the mess the Canadiens are still in because of those Marc Bergevin signings.

Welcome aboard

All GMs have a shelf life. Personally, I think JBB has two years left at this current rate with UFA, TDL, resigning, draft and.first round exits until his seat is warm or he's let go. I believe Cooper is actually safer than Brisebois. Vinik probably views them as a tandem and has confidence in both.

As fans, I think the failure of Jeannots trade to yield any resemblance of a "wow" factor as a player on this roster really hurt the then perceived overpay it was the moment it happened. In 75 regular season games, not outperforming Mitchell Chaffee or Gage Goncalves to the point where people are like "we need Jeannot in the lineup," is troubling. I'm not going to continue to beat that dead horse.

Compound that with back to back first round exits, there's definitely, DEFINITELY, multiple expendable players on this roster. The issue is that most of them were all JBB signings or trades. That's the problem. Will he swallow his pride and move someone like Jeannot so soon? Unlikely. Is he moving Sheary? Maybe. Dumba and Duclair cost us Thompson and a pick. That's the risk with rentals, as neither should be resigned. The 3 resignings all have their legitimate critiques. There's a lot Brisebois has done that's good, but we are slowly placing chips into the pot of what he's done "bad," or at least, has turned out to be mediocre. In the end, he didn't know how useless Sheary and Jeannot were going to be, but when you're the GM, you are the guy. You get credit when things go right, you get the blame when they don't.

 

[These Are The Days]

Julien BriseBois backs Tampa Bay Lightning head coach Jon Cooper: 'The best guy for the job' - TSN.ca

Any rumours surrounding Jon Cooper's future with the Tampa Bay Lightning appeared to be put to rest Wednesday by general Julien BriseBois.

www.tsn.ca

Yup. Right thing to do. I'll say it for the 807th time. He just needs new assistants. The recipe has run its course and it's time to collectively put heads together and figure out a different way to coach this lot

 

[DFC]

Sadly, we went from being "the" place to play to where no one wants to come.

People know what happened with McD and I have to think, that raised a lot of questions in the PLAYERS' minds... Playing for Coop isn't the issue, having JBB as the GM IS. If he'll do that to McD, what's he gonna do with a non-2-cup player?

Vinik should be beyond miffed - he loves owning the team and the GM is destroying all the good will that Vinik built.

As for the BOLD part? I'm not. Not sure who would be a good GM that also has the relationship with Coop that JBB does... I would have said Trotz but he's firmly entrenched in Nashville. Langenbrunner? AGM of Bruins? I mean he got Maroon to go there so he has some taste

I think the quickness of the decline has to do with McDonagh in more ways than one. Man, having the ability to play 45-50 minutes per game with either him or Hedman on the ice is just impossible to replace.

I was surprised by the move when it happened. I didnt think he would be the first major piece to go.

Julien BriseBois backs Tampa Bay Lightning head coach Jon Cooper: 'The best guy for the job' - TSN.ca

Any rumours surrounding Jon Cooper's future with the Tampa Bay Lightning appeared to be put to rest Wednesday by general Julien BriseBois.

www.tsn.ca

Yup. Right thing to do. I'll say it for the 807th time. He just needs new assistants. The recipe has run its course and it's time to collectively put heads together and figure out a different way to coach this lot

The assistants will be Cooper's decision though. You dont really force a coach's staff on him after he reaches a certain level.

 

[These Are The Days]

I think the quickness of the decline has to do with McDonagh in more ways than one. Man, having the ability to play 45-50 minutes per game with either him or Hedman on the ice is just impossible to replace.

I was surprised by the move when it happened. I didnt think he would be the first major piece to go.


The assistants will be Cooper's decision though. You dont really force a coach's staff on him after he reaches a certain level.

I don't dislike his staff personally. But I want them to have the wherewithal to understand that they need to do something else. We agree (in different ways) about the talent of the team not being good enough. Mine is if we don't have the talent to run a scheme, find a different one instead of forcing JFBB and the entire front office to scour the NHL for a specific player and have to organize this trade and that when coaches are literally paid to erase what's on a board and draw something new.

----Yes, I know that's how we won our Cups but that was coming off a system that scores a bunch of goals but didn't work for like 2 years. And now we're doing something that hasn't worked in 2 years. I'm saying do what we did in 2020 and find out a new way to win

But I digress. Bringing back Cooper, Stamkos and Hedman is the right thing to do. I don't think we're gonna be able to reload ala 2017 but we've at least paid the piper for those Cups for 2 years