Coach Discussion: Warsofsky

[TheBeard]

I think all of use share that concern. But if we don't move a LHD in trade, there's only going to be one slot available to evaluate those guys. So you can't on the one hand say that you don't want to trade Ferraro and on the other hand say you want young AHL defensemen to get a shot.

I’d probably trade Walman. I think he was playing way over his head.

 

[Zarzh]

If you think the difference is in St. Louis developing players, who has he done that with compared to what the Sharks have at their disposal. I think a lot of this is playing the hand you're dealt by the GM.

Everyone? From Caufield to Barron.

Heineman has 17 points so far, that's like if Robins had 20 points this season, even if he's not a long term fit you can now get something for him. Warso is coaching a team that's in last and he's one of the coaches that refuses to play a prospect unless they force the issue.

 

[Star Platinum]

I’d probably trade Walman. I think he was playing way over his head.

I wouldn't be horribly opposed selling high on him, but I doubt Grier is looking to make that move yet. I think all the injuries haven't helped him.

 

[coooldude]

A) it might
B) it might
C) it might

It might not x3. If we're truly concerned about our prospects and their future in the club, then let them marinate in the AHL. better to be too cautious than to rush them. We all had to wait for Eklund to suffer through a bad year in a worse league than the AHL, and it's turning out well for him.

My concerns are more with the defense, and the sheer understanding of how poor they are in their own zone and their inability to get puck out greatly hinders the forwards and their development. The only thing it's good for is stamina and conditioning when they're hemmed in their own zone for 3 minutes at a time.

If that's the case, definitely keep all the other depth forwards in the A, and definitely let the defensemen marinate as long as possible to learn the right habits so they don't become our current defensive corps.

Point is evaluating now helps us know who is indeed a part of the future. Most of us understand Thrun, for example, isn't and Grier can now operate knowing this.

You can't have it both ways. You can't have better play in the top club AND good development unless the prospects are ready to step into impact roles in the NHL, which so far only Celebrini is. And the likelihood if you load up the NHL squad with prospects is that you'll get worse performance and worse development.

 

[TheBeard]

You can't have it both ways. You can't have better play in the top club AND good development unless the prospects are ready to step into impact roles in the NHL, which so far only Celebrini is. And the likelihood if you load up the NHL squad with prospects is that you'll get worse performance and worse development.

I don't necessarily agree. The point is we won't know who can step in and have impact roles until they get the opportunity to do so. Look at Smith. Many were clamoring for him to be sent down and now he's probably been our best forward the last few weeks. Why? Because he was afforded the opportunity to learn with the big club.

We all had to wait for Eklund to suffer through a bad year in a worse league than the AHL, and it's turning out well for him.

Fun fact, Eklund is still a year younger than Mukh and half a year younger than Thompson.

 

[Pinkfloyd]

Everyone? From Caufield to Barron.

Heineman has 17 points so far, that's like if Robins had 20 points this season, even if he's not a long term fit you can now get something for him. Warso is coaching a team that's in last and he's one of the coaches that refuses to play a prospect unless they force the issue.

It's funny you say everyone but also throw in Barron who pretty clearly regressed before he was traded for Carrier that made them better. The Sharks don't have a Heineman from that draft class because DW picked guys like Wiesblatt, Bordeleau, and Robins that are much different types of players. Grier is the one that brought in the players to keep ahead of younger guys to let them develop more because that's where most of their future guys are at compared to a Montreal team that has a core group of players with more experience. Their coach has also been there for his fourth season. They should be further along than the Sharks who are just now collecting the talent that is going to be the base of their next competitive team. You have to be patient enough to give them the time to make their mark and not panic when they eat a lot of bad losses early on.

 

[Zarzh]

It's funny you say everyone but also throw in Barron who pretty clearly regressed before he was traded for Carrier that made them better. The Sharks don't have a Heineman from that draft class because DW picked guys like Wiesblatt, Bordeleau, and Robins that are much different types of players. Grier is the one that brought in the players to keep ahead of younger guys to let them develop more because that's where most of their future guys are at compared to a Montreal team that has a core group of players with more experience. Their coach has also been there for his fourth season. They should be further along than the Sharks who are just now collecting the talent that is going to be the base of their next competitive team. You have to be patient enough to give them the time to make their mark and not panic when they eat a lot of bad losses early on.

But playing Barron lets you trade him even if you don't like him. If you don't play him, you get nothing.

 

[Sendhelplease]

But playing Barron lets you trade him even if you don't like him. If you don't play him, you get nothing.

The reason they got something for Barron was not because he was playing. It was because he is a former first round pick who has good tools.

 

[coooldude]

I don't necessarily agree. The point is we won't know who can step in and have impact roles until they get the opportunity to do so. Look at Smith. Many were clamoring for him to be sent down and now he's probably been our best forward the last few weeks. Why? Because he was afforded the opportunity to learn with the big club.

Fun fact, Eklund is still a year younger than Mukh and half a year younger than Thompson.

Fun fact, Eklund was picked 7th overall, Will Smith was 4th, and Mukh was a known project when picked. Moreover they're both defensemen which you and everyone knows take longer to learn how to play their position at the highest level in the world. So you damn well know that these prospects are not comparable.

You and others can't with one side of your mouth complain about players like e.g. Ferraro that were thrown to the wolves and suffered for it, and on the other hand be clamoring to throw young kids into the deep end who aren't yet ready to be reliable NHL players, because "can't hurt" or "maybe it'll work" you're frustrated with losses. They can prove themselves in camp and in the AHL.

 

[Barrie22]

Fun fact, Eklund was picked 7th overall, Will Smith was 4th, and Mukh was a known project when picked. Moreover they're both defensemen which you and everyone knows take longer to learn how to play their position at the highest level in the world. So you damn well know that these prospects are not comparable.

You and others can't with one side of your mouth complain about players like e.g. Ferraro that were thrown to the wolves and suffered for it, and on the other hand be clamoring to throw young kids into the deep end who aren't yet ready to be reliable NHL players, because "can't hurt" or "maybe it'll work" you're frustrated with losses. They can prove themselves in camp and in the AHL.

Ferraro being thrown to the wolves worked, he was a good defensemen for the 1st 3-4 years before his play plummeted to barely nhl level the past 2.

 

[Pinkfloyd]

But playing Barron lets you trade him even if you don't like him. If you don't play him, you get nothing.

But is that a coaching problem or a management problem? Montreal didn't pack their blue line with cap dumps and had four available lineup spots for nothing but a bunch of 23 year old or younger defensemen to play into. All there is for the Sharks is Mukhamadullin (who was injured to start the season), Thompson, and Thrun with six veterans there to occupy lineup spots. The Sharks defensive prospects weren't ready according to the GM and his moves.

 

[TheBeard]

So you damn well know that these prospects are not comparable.

Comparable? No, but the fact is if at 23 even with a defense full of inept journeymen and cast offs, the team doesn't feel comfortable giving them opportunities, which is a massive concern for me.

 

[Star Platinum]

Fun fact, Eklund was picked 7th overall, Will Smith was 4th, and Mukh was a known project when picked. Moreover they're both defensemen which you and everyone knows take longer to learn how to play their position at the highest level in the world. So you damn well know that these prospects are not comparable.

You and others can't with one side of your mouth complain about players like e.g. Ferraro that were thrown to the wolves and suffered for it, and on the other hand be clamoring to throw young kids into the deep end who aren't yet ready to be reliable NHL players, because "can't hurt" or "maybe it'll work" you're frustrated with losses. They can prove themselves in camp and in the AHL.

I think we can tolerate one young defenseman in a third pairing, but they would have to earn the right to move up from there and it would be better if we paired them with very dependable veteran that would bail them out somewhat from some of their more questionable decisions.

 

[gaucholoco3]

I think if this thread is about the coach that’s great I can ignore. But a lot of the roster questions and concerns brought up here are worth reading. Maybe those should be directed to the roster discussion. Especially since many have said they would ignore this thread.

 

[Star Platinum]

I think if this thread is about the coach that’s great I can ignore. But a lot of the roster questions and concerns brought up here are worth reading. Maybe those should be directed to the roster discussion. Especially since many have said they would ignore this thread.

It's so ignored that it's up to 6 pages in 4 days

 

[coooldude]

Comparable? No, but the fact is if at 23 even with a defense full of inept journeymen and cast offs, the team doesn't feel comfortable giving them opportunities, which is a massive concern for me.

Or you might look at it as "we have four vets and two still developing younger D" - Thrun is still developing and he's older than all the other prospects, while Lily is probably close to fully baked but he's still being given a shot to grow at 25. Walman, FWIW, didn't break out in DET until what, his age 28 season? Defense is hard. I'm not at all worried about any of the D prospects - the expectations are too high. Mukh is probably a Lily type guy and probably won't all of a sudden become a #2/3. So let him marinate. If he does become a 2/3 it's not going to be because we forced him into the lineup. Look at Thrun - he's bigger and stronger and older, not as skilled as the other prospects, but able to have passable games like last night where he looked like he belonged, at least.

I think we can tolerate one young defenseman in a third pairing, but they would have to earn the right to move up from there and it would be better if we paired them with very dependable veteran that would bail them out somewhat from some of their more questionable decisions.

That was Thrun, that's what they did with him. He's earning more ice time, but it has taken basically 2.5 years and he had AHL time before that. Last night Thompson got his shot and was holding on for dear life against a bottom feeder. He could still make it to 2nd pairing! But it's OK to let them marinate.

Warsofsky isn't going to solve our roster problems by rushing the kids to the NHL. it was already risky to do so with Smith, but fortunately he seems to be, also, holding on for dear life but at times showing flashes of top of the lineup play.

 

[gaucholoco3]

It's so ignored that it's up to 6 pages in 4 days

Well if you look it’s about 3 people arguing back and forth which is fine what I was saying is there is a lot of talk about roster construction that isn’t really relevant to Warsofsky.

 

[Star Platinum]

Well if you look it’s about 3 people arguing back and forth which is fine what I was saying is there is a lot of talk about roster construction that isn’t really relevant to Warsofsky.

There are 8 different people on this page alone. But there's often tangents that threads take. For a long time, Will Smith debates were seeping into the end of game threads. There was a whole Star Wars debate at the end of one of the threads. People go where they want to with their discussions.

 

[DG93]

Or you might look at it as "we have four vets and two still developing younger D" - Thrun is still developing and he's older than all the other prospects, while Lily is probably close to fully baked but he's still being given a shot to grow at 25. Walman, FWIW, didn't break out in DET until what, his age 28 season? Defense is hard. I'm not at all worried about any of the D prospects - the expectations are too high. Mukh is probably a Lily type guy and probably won't all of a sudden become a #2/3. So let him marinate. If he does become a 2/3 it's not going to be because we forced him into the lineup. Look at Thrun - he's bigger and stronger and older, not as skilled as the other prospects, but able to have passable games like last night where he looked like he belonged, at least.

That was Thrun, that's what they did with him. He's earning more ice time, but it has taken basically 2.5 years and he had AHL time before that. Last night Thompson got his shot and was holding on for dear life against a bottom feeder. He could still make it to 2nd pairing! But it's OK to let them marinate.

Warsofsky isn't going to solve our roster problems by rushing the kids to the NHL. it was already risky to do so with Smith, but fortunately he seems to be, also, holding on for dear life but at times showing flashes of top of the lineup play.

Not only do I agree with your post overall, I like that you labeled Thrun as still developing. I think his game definitely fluctuates, but he's had some very good games and is only 8-9 months older than Mukh, who we all optimistically keep penciling into future lineups as a prospect. I don't think Thrun is going to get dumped prior to next season unless he has a terrible second half.

 

[Pinkfloyd]

Not only do I agree with your post overall, I like that you labeled Thrun as still developing. I think his game definitely fluctuates, but he's had some very good games and is only 8-9 months older than Mukh, who we all optimistically keep penciling into future lineups as a prospect. I don't think Thrun is going to get dumped prior to next season unless he has a terrible second half.

I wouldn't dump Thrun because he's at least a solid depth defenseman that is still developing. He won't get in anyone's way that shows real promise and he can fill the extra man role if it comes to that. The real question is whether or not Grier thinks he can bring in upgrades on Ferraro and Walman and if they have positive value on their own. I would definitely be talking to guys that are expiring like Gavrikov, Pettersson in Pittsburgh, and Orlov to see what it would take to get them here.

 

[coooldude]

Grier on Warso, FWIW:

Grier, on how he would assess Ryan Warsofsky’s performance so far this season:

I think Warso’s done a really good job. I think his staff is doing a good job.

Right away from day 1 in camp, you guys saw the tempo of it. The pace, pushing guys to work and give more. He holds these guys to a standard of competitiveness and work ethic, and he’s also installed some structure in a system that guys are trying to grow into and play. He’s been good, I think he’s done a good job. We’re a young team and we have young players playing in key moments and a lot of minutes. He’s done a good job communicating with those guys and helping develop them. At the same time, he’s making sure that the veterans and the older guys feel valued and important. He’s done a really good job with that.

Momentum and confidence is a big part of sports, and I think we’ve played probably a little better than what our record is. When things start to snowball and the game starts to turn, we’ve had a little bit of trouble getting out.

 

[gaucholoco3]

Grier on Warso, FWIW:

Grier, on how he would assess Ryan Warsofsky’s performance so far this season:

I think Warso’s done a really good job. I think his staff is doing a good job.

Right away from day 1 in camp, you guys saw the tempo of it. The pace, pushing guys to work and give more. He holds these guys to a standard of competitiveness and work ethic, and he’s also installed some structure in a system that guys are trying to grow into and play. He’s been good, I think he’s done a good job. We’re a young team and we have young players playing in key moments and a lot of minutes. He’s done a good job communicating with those guys and helping develop them. At the same time, he’s making sure that the veterans and the older guys feel valued and important. He’s done a really good job with that.

Momentum and confidence is a big part of sports, and I think we’ve played probably a little better than what our record is. When things start to snowball and the game starts to turn, we’ve had a little bit of trouble getting out.

Anytime Grier speaks it is so refreshing as a fan how honest and transparent he is. He clearly has a plan and vision and is confident enough to articulate it publicly. The contrast with DW communication strategy could not be more clear.