Coach Discussion: Warsofsky

[weastern bias]

I'm not sure you understand what I mean, otherwise I don't know how you can say that. Literally removing the worst players on the worst team in 30 years is by definition addition by subtraction, unless they were replaced with blind people are people with no limbs.

We are in agreement that the team improves by removing bad players

Where I disagree with the previous poster is that replacing awful and useless players with useful but unremarkable role players does not lead to a 9 win improvement

What we are still truly missing is top of the lineup deference makers, THOSE are the players who will contribute to winning and we added 3 players this summer with the potential to do so, they are also 18, 19 and 22 years old so it's natural they aren't leading the team to any real jump in wins just yet

 

[Pinkfloyd]

I’m not expecting much, but I just don’t think war is the right kind of coach for the team right now. Like I’ve said before there seems to be a real lack of on-ice leadership so there has to be some semblance of control and sanity behind the bench. War seems just as frustrated and bewildered as the players. What does that accomplish?

I don’t think there is a right kind of coach to steer a group of largely mediocre players and a few developing players into whatever you think it should look like. I don’t see where Warsofsky hasn’t been fairly controlled and sane given the team he has. The things he’s talking about are fair assessments of what they need to do. No coach I’d want wouldn’t be frustrated with the losing but bewildered is not a fair framing of how it looks to me.

Bad teams have bad stretches and tend to get worse as the season goes on. The team just needs to stick together and get through it as best as possible. There’s no silver bullet here and the important thing is the development of Celebrini, Eklund, and Smith. Even Askarov’s development isn’t a huge priority because we know his path forward. Fans just need to take a breath and stop panicking over losing games this season. They’re fine.

 

[YUPPY 2 7 10 11]

The only truly important thing this season is the development of the core pieces on the Sharks. All three of Will Smith, Macklin Celebrini, and William Eklund have shown strong growth/progress this season. I know some people will say that their growth was inevitable, but look at how much Anaheim's top young players have struggled this season due to bad coaching.

 

[Sendhelplease]

View attachment 967592

I admit I forgot about askarov. But I assume that the goalie coach has more influence than the head coach in this case.

 

[Star Platinum]

lol at some of the prior takes (not in this thread) to can him. Absolutely hilarious.

I would assume he gets the same two years minimum that Quinn got

 

[ChompChomp]

Don't think anyone read my comment from earlier, post #16. If Warso got this team to overachieve, he'd be villified (for years) for losing us Schaefer. He can do no right by the fanbase.

And like I also said in this post, how anyone feels about Warso doesn't matter because no matter what, Grier is very likely to replace him after the 26-27 season.

Here's the thing. Warso had this team playing well in the end of November. Perhaps too well for Grier, so he shipped out Blackwood. Yes there are bigger reasons for that trade and its timing (Avs desperation), but considering as it is the Sharks have tire fire defense, shipping out your #1 goalie in Nov/Dec instead of the trade deadline was a blow in terms of Warso trying to squeak out wins. (And let's point out, when the Sharks were on a little run before dealing Blackwood, nobody was criticizing Warso. But when they lose, out comes the nicknames. lol smh)

Let's also note that if Warso was all about a permanent 1-3-1 trap system and eeked out enough wins to be out of the race for #1 overall pick, heads would roll. So literally Warso gets the short end of the stick no matter how things play out.

Bottom line though: At the beginning of the year, Warso said his goal was make the Sharks a "difficult" team to play against. He wanted opponents to leave every game with the Sharks thinking, "man that was a battle." Go back and listen to those interviews when he was hired and when the season started. And he's succeeded. They aren't winning because of the tire fire defense and Georgiev, but they are battling and achieve the exact goal Warso set.

Sad bottom line: Not sure what Warso's contract is. I asked when he was hired, and nobody (including Peng) would say or knows. I assume 3 seasons. I think he's going to lead this team to year over year point improvements (including this year), and when his contract is up (which I think 3 seasons, so at end of 26-27), I bet Grier replaces him with the best veteran HC available in the 27 offseason. And I think a 27-28 contending squad that needs an HC will see what Warso did in SJ over 3 seasons and hire him to be their HC, and then we'll really get to see how Warso does with a team that has playoff expectations.

The only way we'll (likely) see what Warso can do with a contending Sharks team is if Grier speeds up the rebuild timeline, and Grier has shown zero indications of that.

 

[timorous me]

I know this is the kind of excuse people tend to dislike hearing, but the Sharks have played a lot of games this year, and since early November, I believe they've had only three instances of two days off in a row with no travel (Christmas doesn't count since no practice allowed)--which means that you have this group of players, many young, some new to the team, and all of them in their first year in Warsofsky's system, trying to keep it going despite little time to work on things and hash out their issues.

That's only been exacerbated in recent weeks by the injuries and illnesses going around. I'm not going to sit here and give Warsofsky a free pass, because there have been a lot of times where I'm annoyed at some of his decisions, but there's no reason to go in two-footed on him at this point when you look at the big picture of this season.

After Monday, they play only one game in the space of the following week, so while any progress made there will likely be halted by the Four Nations break (starting only a week later), I do think we'll probably start to see the team settle down a bit more again and start getting back to better fundamental hockey as we saw for some time this season, which is what kept them in games and had them winning more than last year.

 

[ChompChomp]

Well said timorous.

there's no reason to go in two-footed on him at this point when you look at the big picture of this season.

Doesn't matter. You have certain people that decided they think Warso is garbage. Every time the Sharks lose under him, they will blame Warso and call him Barfsofsky. Every time the Sharks win, they will give credit to everyone else and give him zero credit.

The Sharks could win every single game from here on out this season and post season, win the Cup, and start a dynasty now, and the Warso haters will never say they were wrong and if the Sharks lose one game, oh look, there's Barfsofsky.

It took me four seasons to call RW Ron "Choke Job" Wilson. Took four seasons to get to Sack T-MAC. 3 seasons to get to Peter DeDumbass (although I'll never forgive him for playing Roman Pollak over Dylan Demelo in the Cup Final his first year), but for these people, 52 games for a rookie NHL coach, coaching a dogshit team, is enough to call him Barfsofsky, blame every loss on him, and start "Warso Sucks. Change My Mind" threads. 52 games.

Absolutely bonkers to get to that mindet at this point in his tenure. And honestly it's been less than 52 games for others, like the people who coined "Barfsofsky." smh

 

[DG93]

I know this is the kind of excuse people tend to dislike hearing, but the Sharks have played a lot of games this year, and since early November, I believe they've had only three instances of two days off in a row with no travel (Christmas doesn't count since no practice allowed)--which means that you have this group of players, many young, some new to the team, and all of them in their first year in Warsofsky's system, trying to keep it going despite little time to work on things and hash out their issues.

That's only been exacerbated in recent weeks by the injuries and illnesses going around. I'm not going to sit here and give Warsofsky a free pass, because there have been a lot of times where I'm annoyed at some of his decisions, but there's no reason to go in two-footed on him at this point when you look at the big picture of this season.

After Monday, they play only one game in the space of the following week, so while any progress made there will likely be halted by the Four Nations break (starting only a week later), I do think we'll probably start to see the team settle down a bit more again and start getting back to better fundamental hockey as we saw for some time this season, which is what kept them in games and had them winning more than last year.

Nah, I think that's a great point. IR is growing, and young guys aren't used to playing this much NHL level hockey.

 

[TheBigDrunkPanda]

The second I read this, I thought "I'll bet @ChompChomp is the guy who was so excited about the Warsofsky hire that he said he's the next Jon Cooper. Did the search and sure enough, my instincts were right.

Let me save you the 18 month reassessment. Warsofsky is not even remotely in Jon Cooper's league. I don't know whether he's a bad coach or just a fungible OK coach, but he's not an elite coach. And when people create strawmans like "you want to blame the 24-25 Sharks for sucking" when hardly any of us said that the team was going to be anything but bottom of the league, I know I'm not dealing with someone who is approaching the discussion in an intellectually honest way.

I think you are confusing chompchomp for hodge

 

[OrrNumber4]

Don't think anyone read my comment from earlier, post #16. If Warso got this team to overachieve, he'd be villified (for years) for losing us Schaefer. He can do no right by the fanbase.

Not by me. Coaches and players play to win, and that's it. Expecting them to do otherwise would be like asking them to commit a crime.

GMs can plan to lose, and maybe that's what Grier is doing with his trades and call-ups.

 

[ChompChomp]

Not by me. Coaches and players play to win, and that's it. Expecting them to do otherwise would be like asking them to commit a crime.

GMs can plan to lose, and maybe that's what Grier is doing with his trades and call-ups.

Grier is absolutely doing that with his trades and call-ups, but nobody is coming up with derogatory nicknames for him nor starting "Grier sucks. Change my mind" threads.

Instead, people just want to lay everything at the feet of Warso. Smh

 

[rekrul]

Grier is absolutely doing that with his trades and call-ups, but nobody is coming up with derogatory nicknames for him nor starting "Grier sucks. Change my mind" threads.

Instead, people just want to lay everything at the feet of Warso. Smh

suggesting Mike Grier is purposely assembling a team to lose for high draft picks is a irrational statement void of facts.


Coaches at the highest level are to develop the elite talent to play to the highest of their abilities. Work a team to play a system/style through practices and training to deliver results. The fact this roster is posting a exact same record as last year's roster suggests the current coaching staff is unable to adjust when other teams figure out their weakness. Doesn't mean he is a bad person or doesn't have the chops to coach in the NHL, most coaches do better their second time around. The learn, reflect and see where they will do better next time. Grier's hire of a coach with no HC experience at the NHL level was a big risk and it is looking like a poor choice.

The 1997 San Jose Sharks were coming of a second horrible season with a low skill level and no system. Darryl Sutter willed that team to a playoff position over a few other teams with better talent. Darryl Sutter was available because he was fired by the Blackhawks. There is always a great coach that just got fired, this team needs some legitimate NHL experience to instill a system that matches the talent, as well as adjust to how teams figure out how to play.

 

[coooldude]

Development: the kids are getting better and the guys who come up have clear expectations for how they are supposed to play. People screamed bloody murder when he demoted or sat young guys, but every time, those guys earned their way back into the top of the lineup and had a good series of games. I think it's kind of an impossible discussion to have if you want to try to claim "they would have gotten this much better anyway, where's my evidence he's helping." Those kind of counterfactual, impossible to prove opinions can be had about literally any player or team in sports and there's no good way out of the discussion.

System: the defensive system is similar to last year, because he controlled it last year. Too much of a shell for my liking, with little twists this year like D playing man to man on key players. The F3 coming back into the zone takes the center role and attacks puck low until the play stabilizes. We actually do get a fair few turnovers, but the defensive corps is poor at puck handling so we often fail to break it out, and one small mistake by eg a winger in not getting the puck deep enough for a change leads to 2+ minute shifts where the guys are just destroyed.

The breakout system does seem to be working better with the wings flying the zone to force the opposing D to respect the stretch, and then we re-collect if the stretch isn't there. Only 3 F's and 1 D have the speed/skill to carry puck through NZ and attempt controlled entries (71, 72, 64, 96), so hands are kind of tied there.

That said - for our slow team speed, the forecheck system works pretty decently. We often force puck battles and when the guys are skating hard, we make it "tough to play against" and have beaten some superior teams. Given the talent level, we don't make it easy to skate through the team. In the OZ, the strong side D pinch hard to try to seal the puck at the hash or below, and this requires the F1/2 to be active in support so the guy in the corner can't just slip the puck inside to the C or supporting winger. Also why high F3 is critical to slow down the opposing breakout if the pinch doesn't work.

Special teams are middle of the pack despite a bad roster. PP is too stagnant for my liking but they've been moving puck and feet more lately, so hopefully that continues. Celebrini is really our only weapon, so opposing teams are giving him less space and it seems to work for them.

Overall, the team has a clear structure and works in it to their abilities. When it doesn't work, it's usually a player getting beaten on puck or making a bad decision that gives up possession.

Adjustments: I don't agree that Warso is clearly getting outcoached in game. I do think he has one vision of how we're supposed to play and because of the roster talent, we basically have to have a great game from everyone to give ourselves a chance in most games. I think game to game, they do adjust in DZ and on forecheck and special teams for how they want to execute, and I don't see much evidence you can point to he's completely in over his head. Sure, he might be, but posters are being very definitive without much substance to back the claims. As for the lines, every time I see someone whine about them and propose something else, it seems like within a game or two that exact combination is tried. He's willing to shake it up but also sticks with combinations long enough to see if they can really gel (see 20-64-2 lately).

I think Warso is probably a replacement level coach. No evidence he's the next Jon Cooper from just 50 games, no evidence he's screwing it like the 5 or so obviously poor coaches. In general, there's a reason the NHL has the highest coaching turnover vs most other sports. Coaches are kind of fungible. They aren't miracle workers.

I don't think it'll be him or the next guy who really makes or breaks our decade-long rebuild.

 

[Pinkfloyd]

Both Grier and Warsofsky are doing fine for the situations they’re in. Both are likely sacrificial lambs while the team accumulates talent through the draft that takes time to develop. And doing that is difficult because it involves a lot of losing. They can do more this off-season to get better but it doesn’t always end up in results. If they get a single top four caliber defenseman, it can do them pretty good as other players develop. Even if they manage just one, they’re short at least one top four caliber defenseman to be competitive with the average NHL team.

 

[TheBeard]

Both Grier and Warsofsky are doing fine for the situations they’re in. Both are likely sacrificial lambs while the team accumulates talent through the draft that takes time to develop. And doing that is difficult because it involves a lot of losing. They can do more this off-season to get better but it doesn’t always end up in results. If they get a single top four caliber defenseman, it can do them pretty good as other players develop. Even if they manage just one, they’re short at least one top four caliber defenseman to be competitive with the average NHL team.

I think Grier has a much longer leash as it was clear from the get go his plan was going to take time. War doesn’t have the luxury of being responsible for a bad team for multiple years. His job is to get the most out of the team provided to him. If the players aren’t doing their job then that means nor is he.

 

[DG93]

I think Grier has a much longer leash as it was clear from the get go his plan was going to take time. War doesn’t have the luxury of being responsible for a bad team for multiple years. His job is to get the most out of the team provided to him. If the players aren’t doing their job then that means nor is he.

I'm willing to bet he gets a couple more years after this one before getting canned.

 

[TheBeard]

I'm willing to bet he gets a couple more years after this one before getting canned.

Yeah. He’s not going anywhere for at least the next season but there will have to be some real improvement next season for him to remain on. Even then his leash will be short in 26-27 because frankly if they’re still sucking then either the kids aren’t developing or Grier isn’t doing his job. If that’s the case, war will be the one canned.

 

[Star Platinum]

I'm willing to bet he gets a couple more years after this one before getting canned.

GM's tend to last longer than coaches, but Grier won't get to pick a fourth coach. The Sharks need to be in the playoffs some time in coach #3's tenure or someone else will be brought in to pick up the baton.