Management Claude Julien - Mod Warning post 643

[LSCII]

It's not a straw man argument at all. If you think that, then I think you should look up the definition. I used his assertion (which I happen to believe) that very few other coaches could get this collection of mediocre talent with a couple of real stars and get them to perform better. If you think that's inaccurate, that's fine. but calling it a strawman redefines what a strawman is.

And since you think it's inaccurate, why don't you give us that long list of available head coaches who could get more out of this group. I'll be waiting.

Weakest argument ever. Who could ever replace Claude? Give me the list. I'll wait.

Not one ****ing person here wanted Julien to be the replacement for Dave Lewis. It turned out just fine, no? So hanging your entire argument on a mythical list of suitable candidates is 100% irrelevant. Using that as the entire basis for your argument does nothing but show your agenda. And that's okay. You like Claude as a coach, you think he's doing a good job. That's your argument and THAT would be valid.

Making blanket statements like nobody could replace him and have this kind of success is where you lose me because that's not something you can prove.

 

[Glove Malfunction]

Weakest argument ever. Who could ever replace Claude? Give me the list. I'll wait.

Not one ****ing person here wanted Julien to be the replacement for Dave Lewis. It turned out just fine, no? So hanging your entire argument on a mythical list of suitable candidates is 100% irrelevant. Using that as the entire basis for your argument does nothing but show your agenda. And that's okay. You like Claude as a coach, you think he's doing a good job. That's your argument and THAT would be valid.

Making blanket statements like nobody could replace him and have this kind of success is where you lose me because that's not something you can prove.

Still waiting.

And yes, I do think Claude is doing a good job. I think he's been handed a steaming pile of mediocre by Sweeney and has done a good job of it. I also think that he could do better, and that he could handle the youngsters, especially on Defense, better. But I also see why he makes those decisions and am not blinded by an illogical hatred of the man as a coach. Too many here are. And I also never said no one could replace him. Not true at all, and not even close to what I did say. But it fits your argument, so hey. Now THAT'S a strawman argument.

That said, you still can't name a single coach who you think would do a better job.

 

[LSCII]

Still waiting.

So you're saying you wanted Claude from the jump, after they decided to fire Lewis?

 

[Glove Malfunction]

So you're saying you wanted Claude from the jump, after they decided to fire Lewis?

I didn't know enough to say one way or another. But I did know that he had to be better than Dave Lewis. Wanting him from the get go and believing he'd be an improvement are two different things.

PS, I edited my post above.

 

[Blowfish]

NCAA AHL NHL CHL
KHL Surely there's a coach out there somewhere that bruins could consider? Julien will be fine with a healthy line up.

 

[LSCII]

I didn't know enough to say one way or another. But I did know that he had to be better than Dave Lewis. Wanting him from the get go and believing he'd be an improvement are two different things.

PS, I edited my post above.

So wait, you want me to provide you with a list of suitable replacements (mainly so you can argue they aren't) yet you didn't know enough last time to come up with your own list? Solid.

Ironic that you say you're still waiting for a list of replacement candidates, yet all the pro Claude folks have avoided my question about the third period of last game like it's the ****ing plague. Why did they look so vastly different and more offensively skilled than they did the first two periods? Hell, extending that out you can say it for even most games this season.

You cannot look at this team and say coaching doesn't have an impact. You can't just give praise for the positives he's done, without also taking a critical eye to the negatives, though. It makes your arguments come off as hollow, IMO. I'm on record as saying he's part of the issue, along with Sweeney and his decisions, and the players for not bringing the effort consistently most nights.

 

[JAD]

Unpopular opinion: claudes system is the reason we are competing for a playoff spot.

He does stupid things that drive me nuts, but i think he has this team at about as good a spot as they can be in.

Agree ... his system has proven to make his teams throughout the years competitive to the extent that on most nights if they play the system property they have a chance at winning. This is true even when talent and superstars are lacking.

QUOTE=bp13;125913139]Agreed. 100%.

Though I'm not sure how unpopular it is. It is in this thread of course, but I think most folks see the flaws on this roster and know who to blame.[/QUOTE]

QUOTE=bruinmann77;125913243]sorry but the coach is usually only as good as his players. but who will take over that the key[/QUOTE]

Players that are underperforming need to be held accountable. On this team there are a few players we are accustomed to having better statistics then they currently have. Their lack of production is obviously hurting the team.

But a lot of the problems Claude Julien brings upon himself in that veterans who constantly underperform seem to get a pass, offensively skilled player's creative freedom is neutered for the benifit of the defensive system, constantly not using players to their strengths or placing them in lineup positions beyond their talent levels or not confident in. We have all seen career 5 - 6 defensemen playing in the top 4 or even top pairing, career 4th liners playing in the top 6. Constantly doing this only sets these players up for failure and greatly exposes their flaws. That exclusively falls upon the coach.
And then there is the power play failure which is a combination of player selection and strategy - again that falls upon the coach and his staff.

I guess an argument could be made that for what ever reason the top go to veterans on this team are underperforming; and for the most part when allowed to play in their proper place in the lineup the others are playing to their level or slightly exceeding which is what the system does for the less talented.

For what it is worth ... I think Claude is for the most part safe this year; it is next year I would keep an eye on.

 

[Glove Malfunction]

So wait, you want me to provide you with a list of suitable replacements (mainly so you can argue they aren't) yet you didn't know enough last time to come up with your own list? Solid.

I want you to show me, since you're hell bent on Claude being utterly replaceable, that YOU can find guys to replace him with. Yet you either can't or you refuse to. All you do is deflect.

 

[Donnie Shulzhoffer]

NCAA AHL NHL CHL
KHL Surely there's a coach out there somewhere that bruins could consider? Julien will be fine with a healthy line up.

The problem with this is you are assuming that one of these would be better than Claude.

 

[DNE3]

I want you to show me, since you're hell bent on Claude being utterly replaceable, that YOU can find guys to replace him with. Yet you either can't or you refuse to. All you do is deflect.

Not a question of doing better but a change in direction. Claude is the same coach as back in New Jersey a decade ago, but he grew a small beard this year. The guy standing behind his shoulder BCassidy would produce equal result but not be paid nearly as well. Flip the switch.

 

[Glove Malfunction]

Not a question of doing better but a change in direction. Claude is the same coach as back in New Jersey a decade ago, but he grew a small beard this year. The guy standing behind his shoulder BCassidy would produce equal result but not be paid nearly as well. Flip the switch.

See, now you've done the thing that Lonnie seemed incapable of doing, just giving me one option who is available to take over.

 

[DNE3]

See, now you've done the thing that Lonnie seemed incapable of doing, just giving me one option who is available to take over.

I'll even go out on a short limb and predict that will be the replacement if and when. This hockey team's front office think tank are not quick and wide-ranging types.

 

[Glove Malfunction]

I'll even go out on a short limb and predict that will be the replacement if and when. This hockey team's front office think tank are not quick and wide-ranging types.

I think you may be right, although if Gallant is still available when it happens, he may get at least a look as well. But I think Cassidy is probably the best bet.

 

[BNHL]

Agree ... his system has proven to make his teams throughout the years competitive to the extent that on most nights if they play the system property they have a chance at winning. This is true even when talent and superstars are lacking.

QUOTE=bp13;125913139]Agreed. 100%.

Though I'm not sure how unpopular it is. It is in this thread of course, but I think most folks see the flaws on this roster and know who to blame.

QUOTE=bruinmann77;125913243]sorry but the coach is usually only as good as his players. but who will take over that the key[/QUOTE]

Players that are underperforming need to be held accountable. On this team there are a few players we are accustomed to having better statistics then they currently have. Their lack of production is obviously hurting the team.

But a lot of the problems Claude Julien brings upon himself in that veterans who constantly underperform seem to get a pass, offensively skilled player's creative freedom is neutered for the benifit of the defensive system, constantly not using players to their strengths or placing them in lineup positions beyond their talent levels or not confident in. We have all seen career 5 - 6 defensemen playing in the top 4 or even top pairing, career 4th liners playing in the top 6. Constantly doing this only sets these players up for failure and greatly exposes their flaws. That exclusively falls upon the coach.
And then there is the power play failure which is a combination of player selection and strategy - again that falls upon the coach and his staff.

I guess an argument could be made that for what ever reason the top go to veterans on this team are underperforming; and for the most part when allowed to play in their proper place in the lineup the others are playing to their level or slightly exceeding which is what the system does for the less talented.

For what it is worth ... I think Claude is for the most part safe this year; it is next year I would keep an eye on.[/QUOTE]

His system works but his seemingly boneheaded personnel decisions takes the team at least 2 steps back from the 4 gained by the system.

 

[b in vancouver]

Julien isn't among my top concerns.

Bergeron
Back up goaltending
Players capitalizing on chances
Centres having to come.too deep to help their d (partially coach but is making the d look much better than they are)
The power play (partially coach but the execution has been bad)

 

[Glove Malfunction]

Julien isn't among my top concerns.

Bergeron
Back up goaltending
Players capitalizing on chances
Centres having to come.too deep to help their d (partially coach but is making the d look much better than they are)
The power play (partially coach but the execution has been bad)

On the power play, I'd put a lot more of it on the coach than you would. Yeah, their execution has been poor, but they're executing a bad system in the first place. And that's not on Julien (except to the extent that he hasn't demanded it be fixed), but on Sacco (who I'm not a fan of in the first place.)

 

[Ten Thousand Hours]

More offense and less defense is last season.

And we weren't competing for the cellar last season.

 

[Hali33]

Unless injuries are extreme I'm pretty hesitant to not hold players, coach, GM responsible for the results on the season.

A healthy roster doesn't really exist over the course of 82 games. It needs to be anticipated by GM/coach with the proper depth to cope. And the players getting big paycheques don't get to just disappear when their preferred linemate isn't 100%.

 

[LSCII]

See, now you've done the thing that Lonnie seemed incapable of doing, just giving me one option who is available to take over.

Not incapable, just not worth the time since it's been done here to death, and because it's an exercise in absurdity. Are you truly suggesting that no one else can coach this team to be a playoff bubble team? It's so stupid that it's not worth arguing.

 

[LSCII]

I think you may be right, although if Gallant is still available when it happens, he may get at least a look as well. But I think Cassidy is probably the best bet.

But, but, but, but, I thought NOBODY else could do what Claude has done? Yet here you are saying Cassidy or Gallant may get a look? If you take your posts at face value, why bother looking at either? You know, since they surely couldn't get this bag of crap to be a bubble team that can't score more than 2 goals per game...

 

[EverettMike]

I don't want any part of Cassidy.

But Don Sweeney hiring Bruce Cassidy to be the head coach of the Boston Bruins would unquestionably be one of the funniest things that ever happened in my life.

 

[Central Scrutinizer]

Not incapable, just not worth the time since it's been done here to death, and because it's an exercise in absurdity. Are you truly suggesting that no one else can coach this team to be a playoff bubble team? It's so stupid that it's not worth arguing.

Not saying i would fire Claude.

Also not saying that i would be pissed if they do.

He has not made the playoffs in consecutive years.

Sometimes a team needs a fresh start, a new voice. Some guys are too comfortable.

There are several great coaches out there that we have never even heard of. Guys like Julien and Babcock were unknowns at one point.

 

[Glove Malfunction]

Not incapable, just not worth the time since it's been done here to death, and because it's an exercise in absurdity. Are you truly suggesting that no one else can coach this team to be a playoff bubble team? It's so stupid that it's not worth arguing.

What's absurd is that you say you want to replace Julien but are utterly incapable of coming up with someone to replace him with. All you offer are excuse why you won't which are all weak sauce.

 

[LSCII]

I don't want any part of Cassidy.

But Don Sweeney hiring Bruce Cassidy to be the head coach of the Boston Bruins would unquestionably be one of the funniest things that ever happened in my life.

I don't want Cassidy either. But what I take issue with is the way the pro Claude crowd makes the assertion that literally nobody else could get this team to be where they are. It's such an illogical claim that it makes my head hurt. Like there's nobody else on this planet that can do this job? Really? At all? It's such a tired, pathetic argument, yet it gets invoked here every few pages in this thread.

 

[Glove Malfunction]

But, but, but, but, I thought NOBODY else could do what Claude has done? Yet here you are saying Cassidy or Gallant may get a look? If you take your posts at face value, why bother looking at either? You know, since they surely couldn't get this bag of crap to be a bubble team that can't score more than 2 goals per game...

I never said NOBODY else could replace him, I simply said (correctly to this point) that you wouldn't or couldn't provide a name of someone available who could replace him. You still haven't.