Player Discussion Claude Giroux

[frightenedinmatenum2]

We had to do the same thing with Ullmark, I guess Staios is just as short sighted as Dorion?

I think the situations are slightly different because of what we paid.

Late 1st for Ullmark, but we also dump 75 percent of Korpisalo, which most people would have expected would cost us a 1st to do.

Debrincat was 7th++.

Also, the Ullmark thing was a longer process, dating back from the TDL. They clearly sent some feelers or had some communication based on how it was described by Ullmark:

Ullmark explained that he spoke to assistant coach Daniel Alfredsson and goalie Anton Forsberg, who he called a "dear friend of mine" long before getting traded to Ottawa.

New Ottawa Senators Goalie Linus Ullmark: "Ottawa Wasn't On My No-Trade List, So There Was Nothing to Waive"

While it still was a risk to acquire him without an extension, the cost relative to the stature of the player was much less, and it seemed like there was at least some communication, even if it was indirect.

 

[bicboi64]

So, I thought i was clear, I don't think either guy was the right fit for us, the point was more about whether trading high picks was a viable in our situation had we gotten the right fit (or had those guys found chemistry in the roles we were filling). It could have worked with the right target imo, those targets however aren't often available. Dorion's mistake imo was thinking a LHD and DBC were close enough. Maybe had he gotten Weegar and Fiala for example, (Weegar is a bit older so not a great alternative) it works, point is you fill the roles with guys that work out and are young enough to fit the core groups window and it's hard to argue you'd guaranteed be better off with the picks.

Your right about Ullmark, my bad, we'd have to find an alternative goalie with that 8 mil dollars, maybe we make a pitch for Markstrom outbiding NJ to hold us over until Merilainen is ready, or maybe we'd have nabbed Stolarz, who knows.

It's not inherently bad to trade a high pick at the tail end of a rebuild, it just has to be for the right return based on the mid term needs of the team. I think DBC made more sense than Chychrun, even sulking all year playing with Pinto instead of a playmaking center he still managed to score 27g, that failure is as much on DJ as it is on Dorion. There was pretty clearly room to score more while here with Stu and Giroux along with the right attitude, he just was already figuring out what kind of wallpaper to put up in his hypothetical Detroit suburbs house. Maybe he could have been a 35 g guy instead of a 40 g guy.

Sorry, I got caught up trying to argue why the guys aren't right fits when that's not what you're arguing.

For the two statements I bolded, I think this is where we disagree. If the right fits aren't available, don't force a move hoping everything will click. Wait and accumulate assets (picks, prospects, players that are on ELCs with promise, FA signings that work out) and then leverage those to address team needs.

I don't think its bad to trade a high pick at the tail end of a rebuild, but I also don't consider 2021 the tailend of the rebuild. Our rebuild started in 2017-2018. I don't think the assets/picks we accumulated between 2017-2020 were enough to start spending in 2021.

 

[PlayOn]

In Detroit, Larkin is mad that the Red Wings continue to sit on their hands and wait. In Buffalo, there are “a lot of malcontents” to quote Seravalli. In Ottawa, Dorion had Brady and Chabot come to him with a list of things to do.

There’s real frustration that comes with endlessly waiting for draft picks to develop, and sometimes it costs you more than its worth in the grand scheme of things.

On this board, we tend to feel irritated by the way we threw away draft picks. But there’s also a dark side to holding on too long as well.

Dorion should have had a list of needs and used whatever mechanism he needed to address them, whether that was selling high on a player, a hockey swap from a position of strength to address a position of weakness, or trading picks. He was trying so hard not to remove from the roster because he seemed to think that the team just needed more of everything to get better. But sometimes less is more. That’s the real root of the problem.

 

[Sens of Anarchy]

In Detroit, Larkin is mad that the Red Wings continue to sit on their hands and wait. In Buffalo, there are “a lot of malcontents” to quote Seravalli. In Ottawa, Dorion had Brady and Chabot come to him with a list of things to do.

There’s real frustration that comes with endlessly waiting for draft picks to develop, and sometimes it costs you more than its worth in the grand scheme of things.

On this board, we tend to feel irritated by the way we threw away draft picks. But there’s also a dark side to holding on too long as well.

Dorion should have had a list of needs and used whatever mechanism he needed to address them, whether that was selling high on a player, a hockey swap from a position of strength to address a position of weakness, or trading picks. He was trying so hard not to remove from the roster because he seemed to think that the team just needed more of everything to get better. But sometimes less is more. That’s the real root of the problem.

We certainly avoided the dark side

 

[Puikiou]

Evan Rodrigues is playing on Florida’s 1st line. He didn’t crack 35 pts during the season. Is he a 1st liner?

People are way too obsessed with how lines look on paper. But that’s not how it works. Most teams don’t have six “top six” players. They spread players out across lines.

Carolina has Jackson Blake on their 1st line.
Toronto has Max Pacioretty on their 2nd line.
Winnipeg has Vlad Namestnikov on their 2nd line.

Let’s say Green does this on day 1 of camp:

Tkachuk - Stützle - Zetterlund
Greig - Cozens - Batherson
Perron - Pinto - Giroux

Are we all good?

Also, what big physical top 6 wingers are we signing for 3.5-4.5M?

Evan Rodrigues:

- Makes 3M/year (less than half of Giroux's salary)
- Plays with the sort of speed and tenacity that complements Barkov/Reinhart and Tkachuk/Bennett's game.
- Saw a dip in points production this year due to injuries, but still scored the exact same amount of goals as Giroux.
- Otherwise averages 40+ points/year over his previous 3 seasons, which ranks as solid complementary top 6 production.

The point is: It's not about what Giroux brought or brings today and all about what he'll bring moving forward.

- Giroux turns 38yo in January and was a net negative to Tkachuk/Stützle by the end of the season (killing plays galore, constantly being 2 steps behind, losing most board battles if and when he engaged at all, losing key facoffs, only generating chances and scoring points with time and space, etc.)
- Furthermore, Giroux doesn't play with the speed and tenacity needed from a good bottom 6 player in today's NHL, nor does he own the skills to be an effective top 6 player on a serious contending team. He's a detriment both ways.

Now, is that worth the 4-5M+ he'll likely command? Especially when we already have declining older players on the roster for leadership in Perron/Jensen and need to explore every way we can to improve the roster?

Or are we better off using those 4-5M to find a better fit / save the money to add a real impact player when the opportunity to do so inevitably arises?

Heading into next season, I for one would gladly take a dog on the bone with skills like Evan Rodrigues or a highly touted, highly skilled young player like Jackson Blake on the roster before Giroux.

Tkachuk - Stützle - Rodrigues/Blake
Zetterlund - Cozens - Batherson
Greig - Pinto - Amadio
Perron - Gaudette/Cousins - Boucher/xxx​

 

[L'Aveuglette]

Report: Ottawa Senators open contract talks with veteran F Claude Giroux | TSN

The Ottawa Senators are interested in keeping veteran winger Claude Giroux in the nation's capital, and as Postmedia's Bruce Garrioch reports, it's down to the details of a potential contract.

www.tsn.ca

The expectations around the league, Garrioch added, is that the Senators will sign Giroux to a one-year contract in the $3-4 million range. A league executive noted that Joe Pavelski made $3.5 million in his final year with the Dallas Stars with additional money available in bonuses.

I certainly hope it's closer to $3 million as I don't think he can play anywhere besides the bottom-6 if we're to be competitive, but I like the one year term if that is indeed what ends up being agreed on.

 

[Tuna99]

If I’m Claude Giroux (and I’ve made $100 + million USD in my career and I live in Kanata where I can afford a nice house) I sign 1 year $2.5 million and I let the headlines be “Giroux takes hometown discount to help team sign other players”. The amount of goodwill won by headlines like this is what puts you over the top for the HOF. And Giroux knows if he wins a Cup he makes the HOF, and his best shot at a Cup is with Ottawa and he’d be a local hero for forever if he and Brady are partying with the Cup in the canal.

Legacy signing

 

[albator71]

Evan Rodrigues:

- Makes 3M/year (less than half of Giroux's salary)
- Plays with the sort of speed and tenacity that complements Barkov/Reinhart and Tkachuk/Bennett's game.
- Saw a dip in points production this year due to injuries, but still scored the exact same amount of goals as Giroux.
- Otherwise averages 40+ points/year over his previous 3 seasons, which ranks as solid complementary top 6 production.

The point is: It's not about what Giroux brought or brings today and all about what he'll bring moving forward.

- Giroux turns 38yo in January and was a net negative to Tkachuk/Stützle by the end of the season (killing plays galore, constantly being 2 steps behind, losing most board battles if and when he engaged at all, losing key facoffs, only generating chances and scoring points with time and space, etc.)
- Furthermore, Giroux doesn't play with the speed and tenacity needed from a good bottom 6 player in today's NHL, nor does he own the skills to be an effective top 6 player on a serious contending team. He's a detriment both ways.

Now, is that worth the 4-5M+ he'll likely command? Especially when we already have declining older players on the roster for leadership in Perron/Jensen and need to explore every way we can to improve the roster?

Or are we better off using those 4-5M to find a better fit / save the money to add a real impact player when the opportunity to do so inevitably arises?

Heading into next season, I for one would gladly take a dog on the bone with skills like Evan Rodrigues or a highly touted, highly skilled young player like Jackson Blake on the roster before Giroux.

Tkachuk - Stützle - Rodrigues/Blake
Zetterlund - Cozens - Batherson
Greig - Pinto - Amadio
Perron - Gaudette/Cousins - Boucher/xxx​

Personally I would keep G, he brings more to this team then just stats.