Player Discussion Claude Giroux

[Cosmix]

He is and stacking your team with 15-20 goal scorers only works in theory imo.

Players need roles and ice time to thrive. Players like Cozens, Greig, Pinto, Zetterlund have to take steps if we want to contend at some point, and so keeping vets around to help them get better is more a solution than bringing in guys that do what they do and take away from their ice time.

The reality is our forward group isn’t good enough, but part of that is experience and Staios’ job is to figure out the part that is personnel and move that out/upgrade - I don’t think Giroux has anything to do with why we aren’t contender. And I think he really showed his value in the playoffs this year.

Giroux ate up $6.5M of the salaries so he did have some impact on what the team could afford to spend on other players. If you use that $6.5M plus some of the cap increase, you might be able to afford a better player who is a true "top 6" player.

Of course, what you spend on that "top 6" player forces the team to spend less on the 4th liners and 13th F.

 

[Cosmix]

This is likely why Staios is holding on to it.

That reason plus it provides more time "whine" about the Dorion Dadonov trade punishment!

 

[PlayOn]

Giroux ate up $6.5M of the salaries so he did have some impact on what the team could afford to spend on other players. If you use that $6.5M plus some of the cap increase, you might be able to afford a better player who is a true "top 6" player.

Of course, what you spend on that "top 6" player forces the team to spend less on the 4th liners and 13th F.

1. The type of winger this team truly needs to thrive isn’t available in free agency. I keep seeing names like Boeser and Ehlers, and I would not spend the money required to sign these players personally. There is a lot of downside to those contracts coming up.

2. Giroux is probably going to come in between 3-4 million. Given all that he does out there, I don’t think that’s a hefty price to pay.

3. If we can’t become a contender because Giroux takes up ~4 million of the cap, there are almost certainly a lot more issues with the team that should/need to be addressed.

 

[Golden_Jet]

The Senators have about $16M in available cap space (including Sogaard & MacEwen contracts) and need to sign 4 Fs to get to 13 Fs and 2 D to get to 7 D.

The cap ceiling is going up by $7.5M from $88M to $95.5M according to my notes.

So I see that as about 14 -14.5 million then , as don’t see Sens, hamstringing themselves all season with no cap flexibility, all season and at TDL. One million at TDL is like 4 million in cap space.

 

[bert]

We have a limited window of opportunity to get better and become a SC contender. Trading our first round pick in 2025 is one way to help acquire a top F or D.

They really do not at all. The 2020 draft is the window all those players are 22 or 23 years old. Staios has repeated it, they want sustained success. Thats how you operate a small market canadian team.

 

[Cosmix]

They really do not at all. The 2020 draft is the window all those players are 22 or 23 years old. Staios has repeated it, they want sustained success. Thats how you operate a small market canadian team.

Not every GM wants sustained success; some focus on the "now" in hopes of retaining their jobs.

Some teams gain greater success "now" (e.g., during the next 1 to 3 years, the short term) by trading futures for today's players, or greater success in the "future" (e.g., 5 years from "now", the longer term) by trading today's players for better future players. I don't think small market teams in Canada are managed in a different way other than because of their lower revenues due to the Canadian dollar, smaller markets and TV viewership, smaller arenas, etc.

 

[Hale The Villain]

If he's willing to accept something like 3M + 1M in bonuses, that's a no brainer, even with his late-season struggles.

He's not a star anymore but he should be able to produce 40-50P if given 2nd unit PP time, he'll continue to be an asset on our PK with his elite IQ and he's still one of the best faceoff specialists in the league.

Considering how badly UFAs are going to get overpaid this summer, that's a deal you can't pass up.

 

[KevinRedkey]

Bonuses simply roll over to the following year, right?

Is there a criteria of can it be pretty much anything? Like, you get 2.500 for dressing for 1 game (just an example). Because if so - just do league minimum and super easily achievable bonuses.

 

[Golden_Jet]

Bonuses simply roll over to the following year, right?

Only if out of cap space,

 

[jbeck5]

I think Giroux is one of those guys. I don’t think a big fish is in the cards this offseason. I think it would be foolish to let him go.

I agree. Keep Giroux. Add to him.

 

[mysens]

I agree. Keep Giroux. Add to him.

Same, he is part of the glue keeping this team united, together etc. It would not set a good example if they let him walk.

 

[Wondercarrot]

Obviously want to keep G but people keep saying he put up 50pts etc.
yes he did but he also did that mainly with Tkachuk and Stutzle and 2nd unit PP time.

If you stuck Zetterlund in the same roles does anyone think he doesn’t put up at least 50pts?

 

[aragorn]

Obviously want to keep G but people keep saying he put up 50pts etc.
yes he did but he also did that mainly with Tkachuk and Stutzle and 2nd unit PP time.

If you stuck Zetterlund in the same roles does anyone think he doesn’t put up at least 50pts?

Yea me, Giroux is most likely a future HOF player who is very smart & has learned to score & be a playmaker in this league for over a decade. He had 64 pts the yr before & 79 pts the yr before that. I don't see any of that from Zetterlund, he isn't much of a playmaker, doesn't seem to have much of a shot on net, he seems to always hit the goalie in the chest & can't pick corners.

Comparing Zetterlund to Giroux is a bridge too far me & I don't think it's even close. He played on the top line for a number of games with zero results, I'm not sure what the obsession is with this guy who to me is barely a 3rd line player. He hustles, he hits, he can skate fast & plays a decent defensive game, but offensively seems limited IMO. He has the summer to make some improvements & we'll see how he is next season whether he can find a role on this team & whether he deserves to move up the lineup because this team needs him to become a player.

 

[Sens of Anarchy]

Obviously want to keep G but people keep saying he put up 50pts etc.
yes he did but he also did that mainly with Tkachuk and Stutzle and 2nd unit PP time.

If you stuck Zetterlund in the same roles does anyone think he doesn’t put up at least 50pts?

minus 1 here

 

[coladin]

It is more of a question: can the afford to sign Giroux?

Can they afford not to?

He is a $3M player, and give him $1M for leadership, and he will take it. Saves the team 2.5 which can go towards Zetterlund

 

[Micklebot]

Obviously want to keep G but people keep saying he put up 50pts etc.
yes he did but he also did that mainly with Tkachuk and Stutzle and 2nd unit PP time.

If you stuck Zetterlund in the same roles does anyone think he doesn’t put up at least 50pts?

Idk if Zetterlund hits 50 playing Giroux's role, but I do know he doesn't lead the league in faceoff wins.

That said, Giroux had 23 5v5 pts, in 81 games (1007 mins) playing in the top 6.
Zetterlund had 4 5v5 pts in 20 games (244 mins, 16pts pace) playing a mix of 4th line and top 6.

That's still a reasonable gap, but I think it's important to remember the bulk of production gap is from the PP which has run hot and cold this year, meaning the sample of 35 mins Zetterlund has on it might not be representative of what he'd accomplish over a full season.

I have high hopes for Zetterlund next year, his underlying numbers all suggest he will bounce back,

 

[bert]

Not every GM wants sustained success; some focus on the "now" in hopes of retaining their jobs.

Some teams gain greater success "now" (e.g., during the next 1 to 3 years, the short term) by trading futures for today's players, or greater success in the "future" (e.g., 5 years from "now", the longer term) by trading today's players for better future players. I don't think small market teams in Canada are managed in a different way other than because of their lower revenues due to the Canadian dollar, smaller markets and TV viewership, smaller arenas, etc.

I mean this team would be way deeper if Dorion didnt do that. They would be a in a real position to actually be able to trade assets right now if they didnt try and do it too early. Staios has said it over and over again. So I dont know why you would expect something different. This team and market cannot run that way it It doesnt work for small market teams.

A small market team that cant attract free agents should absolutely be run differently from a big market that can.

 

[Cosmix]

I mean this team would be way deeper if Dorion didnt do that. They would be a in a real position to actually be able to trade assets right now if they didnt try and do it too early. Staios has said it over and over again. So I dont know why you would expect something different. This team and market cannot run that way it It doesnt work for small market teams.

A small market team that cant attract free agents should absolutely be run differently from a big market that can.

I agree that Dorion spent futures in his time here as GM. That has an effect on the team's ability to manager the roster and team assets (draft picks, prospects, etc.) effectively now.

What am I expecting that is "different"?

I can see the weather, income taxes, and family relationships being important factors in players deciding where they want to play. Ottawa does not win on weather unless the person likes cold weather and cold weather outdoor sports (e.g., skiing). We don't win on income taxes either versus some US States. We might win on some family relations issues (many hockey players come from Canada).

Regarding Canadian small market teams, our gate & TV revenues are in Canadian dollars that typically are not worth as much as USA dollars. The difference in value of the C$ versus the US$ has been an issue in the past and has been mentioned in recent years by some teams. Yet, Andlauer spent to the cap ceiling last season.

 

[Micklebot]

I mean this team would be way deeper if Dorion didnt do that. They would be a in a real position to actually be able to trade assets right now if they didnt try and do it too early. Staios has said it over and over again. So I dont know why you would expect something different. This team and market cannot run that way it It doesnt work for small market teams.

A small market team that cant attract free agents should absolutely be run differently from a big market that can.

I mean, we'd be deeper if the guys Dorion went after when trading futures were guys that fit in long term and either had term or extended.

If we signed Markstrom instead of trading for Murray, traded for Fiala instead of DBC and Marino instead of Chychrun we'd deeper with two guys that could contribute the next 6 years and a goalie that could transition us to Merilainen.

It's not so much that the plan was doomed to fail, the execution was just really bad. I also accept that running an NHL team in a small market means you can't always be as patient as you'd like, you've got to give fans a reason to buy tickets.

 

[DrEasy]

I mean, we'd be deeper if the guys Dorion went after when trading futures were guys that fit in long term and either had term or extended.

If we signed Markstrom instead of trading for Murray, traded for Fiala instead of DBC and Marino instead of Chychrun we'd deeper with two guys that could contribute the next 6 years and a goalie that could transition us to Merilainen.

It's not so much that the plan was doomed to fail, the execution was just really bad. I also accept that running an NHL team in a small market means you can't always be as patient as you'd like, you've got to give fans a reason to buy tickets.

Even if DBC and/or Chychrun had turned out to be great fits and wanted to stay here, IIRC DBC had $9M left over on his contract (but a lower cap), and Chychrun extended for $9M/yr.

We basically ended up giving that big contract to Ullmark, and now we have no room for that elusive big top 6 guy. I guess my point is that we could have fit one player at most. But in each failed attempt prior to Ullmark we lost precious assets in the process, and with no playoffs to show for in the short term either.

 

[bert]

I mean, we'd be deeper if the guys Dorion went after when trading futures were guys that fit in long term and either had term or extended.

If we signed Markstrom instead of trading for Murray, traded for Fiala instead of DBC and Marino instead of Chychrun we'd deeper with two guys that could contribute the next 6 years and a goalie that could transition us to Merilainen.

It's not so much that the plan was doomed to fail, the execution was just really bad. I also accept that running an NHL team in a small market means you can't always be as patient as you'd like, you've got to give fans a reason to buy tickets.

You dont trade top 7 picks when your team is that bad period. Its simply not how to build a winning team. This team was always built around the 2020 draft those players were not developed enough to start dealing high first round picks.

 

[Micklebot]

You dont trade top 7 picks when your team is that bad period. Its simply not how to build a winning team. This team was always built around the 2020 draft those players were not developed enough to start dealing high first round picks.

I don't adhear to the idea of hard and fast rules. I'd rather evaluate a trade on its own merits and base my decision on that.

7 oa is just a number, it's meaningless, you need to look at the players we actually would have been selecting from, likely Kaspers or Korchenski, maybe Geekie given our penchant for big guys and PIMS.

I'm fairly confident Fiala for example, who imo was the better target that offseason, would do more to help the current core from the 2020 draft through their window than anyone we would have picked with 7OA in 2022. At the very least, I think it's debatable, and comes with some additional benefits like selling tickets in a small market, bringing in a quality vet that can help with the kids development, and showing UFA, like Giroux, and the core players like Tkachuk, that you're serious about being competitive.

We sure as hell would have been better off trading 10 oa in 2021 for a roster player, even if we'd take Sillinger like many wanted rather than boucher

 

[bicboi64]

If we moved the 7th overall for a cost controlled player that was still with us, we're in a different situation. cost-controlled

Dorion kept swinging for the fences instead of trying to just get on base. When you are asset heavy and can afford to do that, go nuts, but when you're a bottom 10 team, swinging for the fences has to hit a homerun and is usually not a good idea.

 

[BigRig4]

I don't adhear to the idea of hard and fast rules. I'd rather evaluate a trade on its own merits and base my decision on that.

7 oa is just a number, it's meaningless, you need to look at the players we actually would have been selecting from, likely Kaspers or Korchenski, maybe Geekie given our penchant for big guys and PIMS.

I'm fairly confident Fiala for example, who imo was the better target that offseason, would do more to help the current core from the 2020 draft through their window than anyone we would have picked with 7OA in 2022. At the very least, I think it's debatable, and comes with some additional benefits like selling tickets in a small market, bringing in a quality vet that can help with the kids development, and showing UFA, like Giroux, and the core players like Tkachuk, that you're serious about being competitive.

We sure as hell would have been better off trading 10 oa in 2021 for a roster player, even if we'd take Sillinger like many wanted rather than boucher

Yeah I don’t think you can say “trading picks during a rebuild” is always bad. It’s situation dependent. If the player we’d traded for 7oa was a valuable contributor for us we wouldn’t be thinking twice about it. It was the execution that was poor.

 

[PlayOn]

I think Dorion’s timing was pretty good, but in addition to targeting the wrong players, he was too attached to the core.

You can see the logic of using picks for one trade, but the second probably should have been a hockey trade to fill a need.

The team would easily be in a better spot if he had moved a good player on our team to solidify our RD, then had an additional ~3 picks to keep the prospect pool flowing and work on covering whatever gaps were created. It would’ve also helped us manage our cap better.

Probably would have made a mess of that trade given his track record but in theory I think that was the move. Buffalo is a good example of a team who has held onto every pick for so long and failed to progress - there has to be balance somewhere.