Player Discussion Chris Tierney (C)

[Sensmileletsgo]

He is a smart player and has good offensive instincts, it's too bad everything else about his game is so poor. He's a mediocre skater, has a weak shot, and isn't physically strong. Hopefully those parts of his game improve and he can become a solid 2C. I think he sticks around a while, he's a useful player for the rebuild, but I dont see him become a core player.

 

[supsens]

Hard to beat zibanejad for brassard especially considering he added the pick. Hoffman for boedker is up there especially considering he added the better pick. Stone for brannstrom will be up there and could win it all if brannstrom doesn’t turn out.
Rank them how you like but what’s confirmed is that Dorion is absolutely terrible at making trades.

Well when your on a budget, you have zero staff zero resources and your trying to load up for a playoff run those things happen.
1 goal from the finals, good run and that was the cost.
Point wise and age at the time of the trade it would be like trading Tierney.

 

[Micklebot]

Well when your on a budget, you have zero staff zero resources and your trying to load up for a playoff run those things happen.
1 goal from the finals, good run and that was the cost.
Point wise and age at the time of the trade it would be like trading Tierney.

Zibanejad was 23 with two consecutive 20 goal ~50 pts seasons under his belt when we traded him, Tierney is 25 with one ~50 pts season under his belt.

In terms of upside/age, the closest analogue is far more like trading a better Colin White.

 

[Micklebot]

He had one 51 point season not 2

a tilde "~" means similar. Interesting that you don't bring up that Tierney has zero 50 pts seasons. 46 pts in 80 games is close enough that if you're going to quibble over it you know you have no argument of substance

He turned 24 the year we traded him,

We traded him in Jul 16, he was 23 years and 91 days old. he turned 24 in April of 2017. Again, nothing of substance in your argument.

Teirney just turned 25 he will play this entire year as a 25 year old.
It is really not that big of a difference.

Tierney's b-day is 74 days after Zibanejads. You're saying 80% of a year and a full season of hockey development isn't a big deal so we should ignore it entirely?

These players are in no way similar in terms of what it would be like to trade them then and now.

 

[supsens]

a tilde "~" means similar. 46 pts in 80 games is close enough that if you're going to quibble over it you know you have no argument of substance


We traded him in Jul 16, he was 23 years and 91 days old. he turned 24 in April of 2017. Again, nothing of substance in your argument.


Tierney's b-day is 74 days after Zibanejads. You're saying 80% of a year and a full season of hockey development isn't a big deal so we should ignore it entirely?

These players are in no way similar in terms of what it would be like to trade them then and now.

What was zbads best year till last year? 51 points
What value are you putting on him?
When Zbad was 24 years old. What was his highest point total?
51 points.
I’m saying your pretending we traded away last years Zbad and we did not do that no

 

[Micklebot]

What was zbads best year till last year? 51 points
What value are you putting on him?
When Zbad was 24 years old. What was his highest point total?
51 points.
I’m saying your pretending we traded away last years Zbad and we did not do that no

I'm not pretending anything. I am stating facts

We traded Zibanejad, a 23 year old center with 64 goals and 151 pts in 281 career games.

Tierney is currently a 25 year old center with 53 goals and 159 pts in 376 career games.

These players are not equivalent as much as you want to twist things to make them appear as though they are. Did we trade away last years Zibanejad? No, of course not, we traded away a 23 year old on the leading edge of his development curve. Is Tierney on the leading edge of his development curve? No, he is likely not. Has he proven as much as Zibanejad had at the time we traded Zibanejad? No, he has not.

 

[supsens]

I'm not pretending anything. I am stating facts

We traded Zibanejad, a 23 year old center with 64 goals and 151 pts in 281 career games.

Tierney is currently a 25 year old center with 53 goals and 159 pts in 376 career games.

These players are not equivalent as much as you want to twist things to make them appear as though they are. Did we trade away last years Zibanejad? No, of course not, we traded away a 23 year old on the leading edge of his development curve. Is Tierney on the leading edge of his development curve? No, he is likely not. Has he proven as much as Zibanejad had at the time we traded Zibanejad? No, he has not.

how is it after 24 he got so much better but Tierney will not?
And yes he has, he started out slower than z and closed the gap as they aged.
23 on the edge
24 old garbage can’t continue to improve... sure
I’m not saying he will be as good as Z I am bothered how often Tierney is “traded” or thrown under the bus yet somehow a guy we traded once that put up 3 more points is the end of the world

 

[Sens of Anarchy]

how is it after 24 he got so much better but Tierney will not?
And yes he has, he started out slower than z and closed the gap as they aged.
23 on the edge
24 old garbage can’t continue to improve... sure

Their raw tools are not at all similar. I don't know anyone would pick Tierney over Zib at any stage
Skating, Size, Shot, Speed and talent

 

[supsens]

Their raw tools are not at all similar. I don't know anyone would pick Tierney over Zib at any stage
Skating, Size, Shot, Speed and talent

As a 25 year old he put up 47 points in 72 games, let’s see how close they are this year, and no one said anything about picking Tierney over him

 

[Micklebot]

how is it after 24 he got so much better but Tierney will not?
And yes he has, he started out slower than z and closed the gap as they aged.
23 on the edge
24 old garbage can’t continue to improve... sure
I’m not saying he will be as good as Z I am bothered how often Tierney is “traded” or thrown under the bus yet somehow a guy we traded once that put up 3 more points is the end of the world

I moved this discussion over to a more appropriate thread.

What I've saying is Zibanejad showed far more potential by the same age. It's a false equivalency to suggest trading them would be the same. Nobody said either was garbage, nobody said Tierney can't continue to develop, what is being said is that the odds of a 23 year old that showed more at a younger age developing into the player we see today is greater, especially when you add the context of the tools each player possesses.

How has Tierney closed the gap as they aged? It seems to me the gap is still pretty wide. Tierney's on pace for a 52 pts season, Zibanejad had a 30 goal 74 pts season at the same age. The gap is still huge, bigger even than it was two years ago.

23: 82 gp 20 g 40 pts vs 56 gp 14 g 37 pts (21 g, 54 pts pace)
24: 81 gp 9 g 48 pts vs 72 gp 27 g 47 pts (30 g, 54 pts pace)
25: 11 gp 3g 7 pts (22 g 52 pts pace) vs 82 gp 30 g 74 pts

One guy clearly had #1 center potential. He wasn't there yet but had all the tools and was young enough that there was lots of room for developing into that. The other guy is closer to being a final product. He doesn't have any standout tools, but gets the job done as a middle six guy.

Tierney isn't getting thrown into deals because he's a bad player, he's thrown in because he has value but likely isn't going to be in the teams long term plans with Brown, White, Norris, and potentially our top pick in this years draft all looking like they have greater upside. Add to that the possibility of re-sigigning Pageau who is a more prototypical 3rd line option and he's getting squeezed out.

 

[Micklebot]

As a 25 year old he put up 47 points in 72 games, let’s see how close they are this year, and no one said anything about picking Tierney over him

Zibanejad did not play a single game as a 25 year old in the 2017-18 season. The NYR season ended prior to him turning 25. He played 82 games scoring 30 goals and 74 pts, as a 25 year old for every game in the 18-19 season.

 

[SpezDispenser]

With Brown here now, this is certainly a guy I would entertain moving for a 2nd.

 

[Matsens15]

I hope the sens move him at the deadline.

 

[Micklebot]

With Brown here now, this is certainly a guy I would entertain moving for a 2nd.

He's a 25 year old RFA, I hope we can get a bit more than just a 2nd.

Tatar was a 26 year old with better tools but similar production by the time we'll be trading Tierney. He got a 1st, 2nd, and 3rd. Dzingel got two 2nds and Duclair as a UFA to be. Better offensive player for sure, but a year older and no contract going forward.

I'm hoping for a late 1st from a contender, or two 2nds or a 2nd and a prospect from a team looking for a long term middle six center.

We don't have a lot of need for Tierney, but that doesn't mean other teams can't see some value there.

 

[The Devilish Buffoon]

C. Brown, Pageau, Namestnikov, Tierney.... I can't see all 4 staying... maybe not even any more than 2.

That being said, I think C. Brown is a lock to stick around, keeping Pageau will be their strong preference, and Namestnikov is playing himself into the conversation too. I don't dislike Tierney, but the fact that he might be the least valuable to our team and yet the guy who could return the most makes him an enticing piece to move.

He's a 25 year old RFA, I hope we can get a bit more than just a 2nd.

Tatar was a 26 year old with better tools but similar production by the time we'll be trading Tierney. He got a 1st, 2nd, and 3rd. Dzingel got two 2nds and Duclair as a UFA to be. Better offensive player for sure, but a year older and no contract going forward.

I'm hoping for a late 1st from a contender, or two 2nds or a 2nd and a prospect from a team looking for a long term middle six center.

We don't have a lot of need for Tierney, but that doesn't mean other teams can't see some value there.

My thought exactly. I don't think he will return quite that much - I'd probably cap his value at 2nd + 2nd - but I do think there will be teams who value him relatively highly. 55pts in 92 games with us despite a low SH%, only 25% of his production on the PP + lots of shorthanded minutes and average linemates (aside from the start of last season). He's getting good on faceoffs, too.

Not the piece we need longterm, but theres some definite value there for a team looking for a jack-of-all-trades depth C for the next 3/4 years.

 

[Micklebot]

My thought exactly. I don't think he will return quite that much - I'd probably cap his value at 2nd + 2nd - but I do think there will be teams who value him relatively highly. 55pts in 92 games with us despite a low SH%, only 25% of his production on the PP + lots of shorthanded minutes and average linemates (aside from the start of last season). He's getting good on faceoffs, too.

Not the piece we need longterm, but theres some definite value there for a team looking for a jack-of-all-trades depth C for the next 3/4 years.

Yeah, 2nd+2nd would be a great return, I admit I'm shooting high, I think the earlier we move him the better the return could be. I think he'd be a great add for a team going to the playoffs though. His style to me seems like the type that will fit in no matter where you put him but he won't ever be a dominant force or top 6 anchor, but he can play with skilled guys or with third line grinders and do his thing.

 

[SpezDispenser]

He's a 25 year old RFA, I hope we can get a bit more than just a 2nd.

Tatar was a 26 year old with better tools but similar production by the time we'll be trading Tierney. He got a 1st, 2nd, and 3rd. Dzingel got two 2nds and Duclair as a UFA to be. Better offensive player for sure, but a year older and no contract going forward.

I'm hoping for a late 1st from a contender, or two 2nds or a 2nd and a prospect from a team looking for a long term middle six center.

We don't have a lot of need for Tierney, but that doesn't mean other teams can't see some value there.

Oh yes please!

 

[swiftwin]

I hope we can keep him. He's a solid middle-6 two-way player and an excellent penalty killer. We could be awesome with Brown-White-Tierney-Pageau down the middle in a few years.

 

[The Devilish Buffoon]

Yeah, 2nd+2nd would be a great return, I admit I'm shooting high, I think the earlier we move him the better the return could be. I think he'd be a great add for a team going to the playoffs though. His style to me seems like the type that will fit in no matter where you put him but he won't ever be a dominant force or top 6 anchor, but he can play with skilled guys or with third line grinders and do his thing.

Yup, agreed. He's a smart player with decent skill and he's very versatile. He anchor any type of bottom 6 line quite nicely and as you said, doesn't need to play with particular kinds of guys to be successful/productive.

 

[Micklebot]

So... in terms of what a contender might offer for Tierney:

Who would you rather for a playoff team's first round pick:

29 year old center with 1 more year on his contract that is pacing at 25 goals and 54 pts. averaged 21 goals 49 pts per 82 in the previous 2 seasons

25 year old RFA center on pace for 22 goals and 52 pts. Averaged 13 goals and 44 pts in the previous 2 years.

The Pens gave up a 1st and a top goalie prospect for the former, but I'd rather the latter. Obviously a lot of context is missing, Brassard had a playoff reputation, but he was also seen as not really living up to expectations with Ottawa.

I think Tierney will entice teams if we opt to shop him.

 

[JD1]

You guys are funny....you're all in a rush to trade a versatile 25 year old guy for draft picks. Some even say we wont need him by the time we are a contender. Yet there's all kinds of proposals to trade him to a contender.

I have a better idea. Why dont we hang onto him, considering as he can play and all, and see what the future brings.

This team doesn't need to be moving on from 25 year old, cost controlled actual, real NHL players

 

[Micklebot]

You guys are funny....you're all in a rush to trade a versatile 25 year old guy for draft picks. Some even say we wont need him by the time we are a contender. Yet there's all kinds of proposals to trade him to a contender.

I have a better idea. Why dont we hang onto him, considering as he can play and all, and see what the future brings.

This team doesn't need to be moving on from 25 year old, cost controlled actual, real NHL players

I think we have a bit of a crunch coming.

Brown, White, Pageau, Tierney, Anisimov, are all NHL centers right now imo (Anisimov less so, but he's under contract and will be hard to move).

Norris is going to be ready soon (late this season or next season imo). We could be in a position to draft an NHL ready center in Byfield this Jul.

Lots of people also see it as a decision between Tierney and Pageau, keep one or the other. I can see the argument for either tbh.

I agree that we could hold onto a good NHL center in Tierney, that's certainly not the end of the world. Having said that, I think trading him this year likely maximizes the return we can get for him, so doing so is betting on him not being one of our best three centers in a year or two and going forward.

I think if we want to play it safe, hold on to Tierney, if we want to swing for the fences, we trade him.

To your specific point about some saying we won't need him when we are a contender, while at the same time saying trade him to a contender, how far away are we from being a contender? 3 years? 5 years? Trading him to a contender gives that contender his prime 3 to 5 years, holding on to him might give us the start on his downward trend. I don't see the logical inconsistency there.

 

[Alex1234]

I think we have a bit of a crunch coming.

Brown, White, Pageau, Tierney, Anisimov, are all NHL centers right now imo (Anisimov less so, but he's under contract and will be hard to move).

Norris is going to be ready soon (late this season or next season imo). We could be in a position to draft an NHL ready center in Byfield this Jul.

Lots of people also see it as a decision between Tierney and Pageau, keep one or the other. I can see the argument for either tbh.

I agree that we could hold onto a good NHL center in Tierney, that's certainly not the end of the world. Having said that, I think trading him this year likely maximizes the return we can get for him, so doing so is betting on him not being one of our best three centers in a year or two and going forward.

I think if we want to play it safe, hold on to Tierney, if we want to swing for the fences, we trade him.

To your specific point about some saying we won't need him when we are a contender, while at the same time saying trade him to a contender, how far away are we from being a contender? 3 years? 5 years? Trading him to a contender gives that contender his prime 3 to 5 years, holding on to him might give us the start on his downward trend. I don't see the logical inconsistency there.

Exactly
Why wait just before he becomes UFA and get nothing in return?
Its the perfect time imo

 

[JD1]

I think we have a bit of a crunch coming.

Brown, White, Pageau, Tierney, Anisimov, are all NHL centers right now imo (Anisimov less so, but he's under contract and will be hard to move).

Norris is going to be ready soon (late this season or next season imo). We could be in a position to draft an NHL ready center in Byfield this Jul.

Lots of people also see it as a decision between Tierney and Pageau, keep one or the other. I can see the argument for either tbh.

I agree that we could hold onto a good NHL center in Tierney, that's certainly not the end of the world. Having said that, I think trading him this year likely maximizes the return we can get for him, so doing so is betting on him not being one of our best three centers in a year or two and going forward.

I think if we want to play it safe, hold on to Tierney, if we want to swing for the fences, we trade him.

To your specific point about some saying we won't need him when we are a contender, while at the same time saying trade him to a contender, how far away are we from being a contender? 3 years? 5 years? Trading him to a contender gives that contender his prime 3 to 5 years, holding on to him might give us the start on his downward trend. I don't see the logical inconsistency there.

We'd be foolish to trade Tierney unless we have Pageau signed.

Brown's going to stay.

The draft is unknown
Pageau being signed is unknown.

I agree we have a crunch coming...its a good problem to have...but there are many unknowns. Tierney is a certainty

 

[JD1]

Exactly
Why wait just before he becomes UFA and get nothing in return?
Its the perfect time imo

Yes you keep trading away nhl players for draft picks...and you'll be one of the guys at the front of the line harping all the time because we suck.

Tierney is a good player and we control him. There's no need to move him