Player Discussion Chris Tierney (C)

[solidprospect]

Have a couple Tierny comparisons...was thinking Matt Cullen on the top 9 forward side and if he gets to top6 ability, maybe a Cory Stillman.

 

[BonHoonLayneCornell]

But my question was why you were talking in absolute?

"Duchene is not going to be resigned."

You seemed to be 100% sure, so I was asking how you were so sure since it seems pretty much impossible to say at this point, IMO.

You can say that you think he's gone but talking in absolute that he is not going to be re-signed suggest that you might have some insider info.



You're forgetting about the salary cap floor. We will have a hard time reaching it, even IF we are able to extend both Duchene and Stone at 8 M$ per year.

Tkachuk ($925,000) - Tierney ($2,937,500) - Stone ($8,000,000)
Boedker ($4,000,000) - Duchene ($8,000,000) - Ryan ($7,250,000)
Balcers ($759,167) - Chlapik ($728,333) - Batherson ($736,666)
Formenton ($753,333) - Pageau ($3,100,000) - White ($1,800,000)
Paul ($900,000)

Chabot ($863,333) - DeMelo ($900,000)
Lajoie ($710,000) - Jaros ($755,000)
Wolanin ($1,800,000) - Harpur ($725,000)
Borowiecki ($1,200,000)

Anderson ($4,750,000)
Condon ($2,400,000)

That line-up cap hit is $55,743,332, including Gaborik and MacArthur cap hits on LTIR (only cost 20% in real cash)

In that scenario, I traded Dzingel, Ceci and Smith for no salary in return so if we keep one of them and/or get some salary in return, we might reach the cap floor (which will probably be a bit higher next year)

I traded those guys because they won't be "needed" in the future; although I'm not sure about Ceci, right side looks weak, might as well extend him a few more years (until JBD is ready) and trade/waive Harpur instead.

After the 2019-20 season, Ryan will only have 2 years left, you can either trade him with retained salary or buy him out (cost would "only" be $1,833,333 per season for the 4 next years). Not to mention both Anderson and Condon contracts coming off the books (also Boedker and Pageau)

Seriously, you don't have to worry about money for a while. Reaching the cap floor will be a harder challenge. We'll have to give out some contracts at some point to stay "legal" within the NHL rules. Pageau won't ever be too expensive. I could see 3.8 x 4 years.

I'm not a huge Pageau fan like most, so it's not just about money, i would like to invest what little we have available in other players or at least only go short term to leave flexibility, we need to be very careful with so little to spend. I would much rather that money go toward Dzingel than i would Pageau. If Pageau is willing to sign a 2 or 3 year deal, i don't mind so much, but i don't want to see any kind of 4 or 5 year ufa deal signed, including your proposed 4x3.8 one. We will have to spend money, but i would like it spent elsewhere or sat on to invest in a new core, because its going to take more term to keep him than i'd like. Sign short term ufa's or take on more ltir if we must get to the floor.

You have Ceci, Dzingel & Smith gone in your scenario as well which seems presumptuous at this point. I still can't see Smith being able to be traded unless we take significant salary back canceling it out either way. Dzingel and Ceci may go, but we know how much they love Ceci, so that seems too uncertain as well.

If Duchene goes though, all bets are off and we probably keep him due to lack of option.

 

[Xspyrit]

I'm not a huge Pageau fan like most, so it's not just about money, i would like to invest what little we have available in other players or at least only go short term to leave flexibility, we need to be very careful with so little to spend. I would much rather that money go toward Dzingel than i would Pageau. If Pageau is willing to sign a 2 or 3 year deal, i don't mind so much, but i don't want to see any kind of 4 or 5 year ufa deal signed, including your proposed 4x3.8 one. We will have to spend money, but i would like it spent elsewhere or sat on to invest in a new core, because its going to take more term to keep him than i'd like. Sign short term ufa's or take on more ltir if we must get to the floor.

You have Ceci, Dzingel & Smith gone in your scenario as well which seems presumptuous at this point. I still can't see Smith being able to be traded unless we take significant salary back canceling it out either way. Dzingel and Ceci may go, but we know how much they love Ceci, so that seems too uncertain as well.

If Duchene goes though, all bets are off and we probably keep him due to lack of option.

Ok I see, since you're not as high on Pageau as others. Me, I'd like to keep him over Dzingel because he's from Gatineau and the Sens need to grow their fanbase, Pageau contributes to that. Also, because of how huge of a playoff performer he can be. That 4 goals performance is something you rarely see, even from elite players. And it was not in a 8-3 game, but a 5-4 OT win. Also because he's excellent defensively while I find Dzingel only average. But you're right here, it might come down to Pageau or Dzingel (assuming both Stone and Duchene are kept). With guys like Tkachuk, Tierney, Formenton, White, Batherson, Balcers, Brown, Chlapik and even Norris, we'll need a lot of roster spots. Ryan will be gone within a year or two but no rush because we're already spending below the cap, in terms of $), Boedker will probably be gone by the end of his contract, etc.

If they can't get Duchene and Stone under contract, reaching the cap floor will be the biggest roster management challenge I have ever seen in the NHL.

 

[Icelevel]

He’s kinda like what I hoped lazar would be but not as good. And that’s ok

 

[Multigrain]

I am not that inpressed by Dzingel. He seems to have the speed but lacks the hands and control.
He can get in so close to the net and seems to miss most of the time. I still think it is early in the season so it will be interesting to see how it progresses.

 

[Multigrain]

Ok I see, since you're not as high on Pageau as others. Me, I'd like to keep him over Dzingel because he's from Gatineau and the Sens need to grow their fanbase, Pageau contributes to that. Also, because of how huge of a playoff performer he can be. That 4 goals performance is something you rarely see, even from elite players. And it was not in a 8-3 game, but a 5-4 OT win. Also because he's excellent defensively while I find Dzingel only average. But you're right here, it might come down to Pageau or Dzingel (assuming both Stone and Duchene are kept). With guys like Tkachuk, Tierney, Formenton, White, Batherson, Balcers, Brown, Chlapik and even Norris, we'll need a lot of roster spots. Ryan will be gone within a year or two but no rush because we're already spending below the cap, in terms of $), Boedker will probably be gone by the end of his contract, etc.

If they can't get Duchene and Stone under contract, reaching the cap floor will be the biggest roster management challenge I have ever seen in the NHL.

Why being from Gatineau would mean anything?
Growing the fanbase on a team that is close to bankruptcy seems hopeless.

 

[BonHoonLayneCornell]

Ok I see, since you're not as high on Pageau as others. Me, I'd like to keep him over Dzingel because he's from Gatineau and the Sens need to grow their fanbase, Pageau contributes to that. Also, because of how huge of a playoff performer he can be. That 4 goals performance is something you rarely see, even from elite players. And it was not in a 8-3 game, but a 5-4 OT win. Also because he's excellent defensively while I find Dzingel only average. But you're right here, it might come down to Pageau or Dzingel (assuming both Stone and Duchene are kept). With guys like Tkachuk, Tierney, Formenton, White, Batherson, Balcers, Brown, Chlapik and even Norris, we'll need a lot of roster spots. Ryan will be gone within a year or two but no rush because we're already spending below the cap, in terms of $), Boedker will probably be gone by the end of his contract, etc.

If they can't get Duchene and Stone under contract, reaching the cap floor will be the biggest roster management challenge I have ever seen in the NHL.

It's ok, it's probably shocking to find someone that doesn't gush over Pageau lol. I was the same way with Fisher, everyone else loved him, but I always wanted Vermette to get his minutes and kept as the 2C.

Everything comes with the caveat of being a poor team. If we were a cap team, I'd say sign him up, but we aren't and we've had difficulty rounding out our roster because of money committed to under performing players and if we are rebuilding, then I'd like us to preserve the flexibility to reset financially as much as possible. We have an opportunity to define a new core and build up to paying them, but even 4 or 5 year deals to non core players like Pageau could get in the way before they're over. We also have good prospect depth at 2nd/3rd/4th line center possibilities, so it's an area we can look to scrimp on to benefit other areas. We just don't have the luxury of not having question marks in the lineup since we're spending anywhere from 50 mil to 68 mil being the most we've ever spent iirc.

It's the same argument I have for Ceci. I don't hate him and in the right role could be a positive contributor for us, but he's not irreplaceable or impactful enough to want 4 or 5 mil of our limited resources paid to him on a long term deal. I'd like to go with a question mark like say Jaros in that spot when the time comes and just sit on the money. We have to get off the pot with some of these guys before giving them their biggest UFA contracts they'll ever get and likely never live up to.

The 4 and 3 goal playoff performances for Pageau were legendary, but his numbers outside of those show he wasn't providing much offensively outside of those two games. Not that offense is his role either, but the defense can probably be adequately replaced cheaper.

 

[Clayonator]

Not gonna address any poster in particular but keeping a player due to local roots over someone else is asinine, ludicrous, and downright stupid. It’s a bonus and nothing more. Nobody cares where you’re from if you don’t contribute enough to a winning product. That’s off topic from this thread though.

That said:

I absolutely love Tierney. So smart and efficient at both ends of the ice. He buys us time for White, Chlapik, Brown to develop as top 6/9 centermen. Not only that he’s young enough that even if one or two of them don’t he can still fill that role long term himself. I also feel he’s an even bigger asset if Duchene walks.

 

[Xspyrit]

Why being from Gatineau would mean anything?
Growing the fanbase on a team that is close to bankruptcy seems hopeless.

He's a huge fan favorite in Gatineau and people in the Quebec province love him, even if he doesn't play in Montreal. I live in Montreal and I am happy there's players like Pageau, Chabot and Lajoie on the Sens, even though my favorite hockey players are mostly all Swedish and from outside north america. I am a born European and believe me when I tell you that I don't give a f*** about my "local boys", I AM NOT A HABS FAN DESPITE LIVING IN MONTREAL FOR 27 YEARS AND NOT MORE THAN 2 DAYS STRAIGHT IN AN OTTAWA HOTEL. I don't care about the word "local" at all, for me it doesn't even exist. But I am able to recognize that having players like those 3 can help you build some appreciation capital from the Quebec people and well, the Sens fanbase can use all the help it can get as it's probably the smallest in Canada and even smaller than several american markets.

You say it's hopeless but it's not over as long as it's not over. If Ottawa isn't that interested in having a NHL team, then move it to a market that will. I believe there's enough people that want a team in Ottawa, new ownership might eventually be needed but for that, we'll have to wait and see. Just because the actual ownership is in trouble doesn't mean you have to stop support your team and grow the fanbase. We're not Melnyk fans, we're Sens fans. Personally, I'm not an Ottawa fan, I'm a Sens fan.

It's ok, it's probably shocking to find someone that doesn't gush over Pageau lol. I was the same way with Fisher, everyone else loved him, but I always wanted Vermette to get his minutes and kept as the 2C.

Everything comes with the caveat of being a poor team. If we were a cap team, I'd say sign him up, but we aren't and we've had difficulty rounding out our roster because of money committed to under performing players and if we are rebuilding, then I'd like us to preserve the flexibility to reset financially as much as possible. We have an opportunity to define a new core and build up to paying them, but even 4 or 5 year deals to non core players like Pageau could get in the way before they're over. We also have good prospect depth at 2nd/3rd/4th line center possibilities, so it's an area we can look to scrimp on to benefit other areas. We just don't have the luxury of not having question marks in the lineup since we're spending anywhere from 50 mil to 68 mil being the most we've ever spent iirc.

It's the same argument I have for Ceci. I don't hate him and in the right role could be a positive contributor for us, but he's not irreplaceable or impactful enough to want 4 or 5 mil of our limited resources paid to him on a long term deal. I'd like to go with a question mark like say Jaros in that spot when the time comes and just sit on the money. We have to get off the pot with some of these guys before giving them their biggest UFA contracts they'll ever get and likely never live up to.

The 4 and 3 goal playoff performances for Pageau were legendary, but his numbers outside of those show he wasn't providing much offensively outside of those two games. Not that offense is his role either, but the defense can probably be adequately replaced cheaper.

Pretty good post. It's refreshing to read a perfectly reasonable and intelligible argument on the internet, even if there was some kind of disagreement at the beginning. lol it feels weird because I feel the more I read internet, the more I find it "troubling" to put it like that.

That being said, I don't see any possibility that all of Stone, Duchene, Dzingel and Ceci are gone next year, unless the Sens take significant salary in trade returns or spend a lot of the UFA market, 2 things that I don't see Melnyk liking a lot. They might be able to get another contract like Gaborik but it's not like there's a ton out there and nobody else need them.

Not gonna address any poster in particular but keeping a player due to local roots over someone else is asinine, ludicrous, and downright stupid. It’s a bonus and nothing more. Nobody cares where you’re from if you don’t contribute enough to a winning product. That’s off topic from this thread though.

Well, I know you said "not gonna address any poster in particular", but at the same time I was the only one talking about this here lol. You probably didn't read my post entirely because it was really not as simple as your are portraying it to be. I didn't say "I want to keep Pageau because he's local". I said "the Sens need to grow their fanbase, Pageau contributes to that" so I'm not sure those adjectives are deserved. Maybe it would if it was my only reason for keeping Pageau but as indicated in the same post, it's mostly because I think he's an excellent player (and young). He's pretty speedy too and while Dzingel brings a tad more offense it's not by much, so I would say that Pageau can have a bigger impact on the team. I think better wingers than Dzingel are actually developing (Tkachuk, Balcers, Batherson, maybe Formenton) so might not need him long term (even if I like him), his price tag is going to be higher than Pageau too. Brown and Chlapik are not competing with Pageau who always will be a bottom-6 C. Maybe White, maybe Norris down the road but that's why I would like to keep Pageau a few more years.

Finally, I suggest you read my answer to Multigrain if you think that I care about "locality" lol

 

[Clayonator]

He's a huge fan favorite in Gatineau and people in the Quebec province love him, even if he doesn't play in Montreal. I live in Montreal and I am happy there's players like Pageau, Chabot and Lajoie on the Sens, even though my favorite hockey players are mostly all Swedish and from outside north america. I am a born European and believe me when I tell you that I don't give a **** about my "local boys", I AM NOT A HABS FAN DESPITE LIVING IN MONTREAL FOR 27 YEARS AND NOT MORE THAN 2 DAYS STRAIGHT IN AN OTTAWA HOTEL. I don't care about the word "local" at all, for me it doesn't even exist. But I am able to recognize that having players like those 3 can help you build some appreciation capital from the Quebec people and well, the Sens fanbase can use all the help it can get as it's probably the smallest in Canada and even smaller than several american markets.

You say it's hopeless but it's not over as long as it's not over. If Ottawa isn't that interested in having a NHL team, then move it to a market that will. I believe there's enough people that want a team in Ottawa, new ownership might eventually be neded but for that, we'll have to wait and see. Just because the actual ownership is in trouble doesn't mean you have to stop support your team and grow the fanbase. We're not Melnyk fans, we're Sens fans. Personally, I'm not an Ottawa fan, I'm a Sens fan.



Pretty good post. It's refreshing to read a perfectly reasonable and intelligible argument on the internet, even if there was some kind of disagreement at the beginning. lol it feels weird because I feel the more I read internet, the more I find it "troubling" to put it like that.

That being said, I don't see any possibility that all of Stone, Duchene, Dzingel and Ceci are gone next year, unless the Sens take significant salary in trade returns or spend a lot of the UFA market, 2 things that I don't see Melnyk liking a lot. They might be able to get another contract like Gaborik but it's not like there's a ton out there and nobody else need them.



Well, I know you said "not gonna address any poster in particular", but at the same time I was the only one talking about this here lol. You probably didn't read my post entirely because it was really not as simple as your are portraying it to be. I didn't say "I want to keep Pageau because he's local". I said "the Sens need to grow their fanbase, Pageau contributes to that" so I'm not sure those adjectives are deserved. Maybe it would if it was my only reason for keeping Pageau but as indicated in the same post, it's mostly because I think he's an excellent player (and young). He's pretty speedy too and while Dzingel brings a tad more offense it's not by much, so I would say that Pageau can have a bigger impact on the team. I think better wingers than Dzingel are actually developing (Tkachuk, Balcers, Batherson, maybe Formenton) so might not need him long term (even if I like him), his price tag is going to be higher than Pageau too. Brown and Chlapik are not competing with Pageau who always will be a bottom-6 C. Maybe White, maybe Norris down the road but that's why I would like to keep Pageau a few more years.

Finally, I suggest you read my answer to Multigrain if you think that I care about "locality" lol

To be fair I saw at least two other posters chime in to discuss the value of having local players being placed as a priority when not specifically addressing you as part of a reply, so I didn’t see the point in signaling out anyone as it would miss the point entirely I was attempting to make. However your later response to @Multigrain clears the air on your specific perspective quite well, and it actually does make sense from a marketing POV given Ottawa’s proximity to Quebec. Conversely I think the same argument could be made of having players from the GTA on our squad to grab some of south western Ontario’s attention. Do I think it would work? No. Not really. I don’t think any of that matters unless your player personal is a productive NHL player. I think fans may look at where a guy is from and say “oh cool my neck of the woods” and then go on with their day drafting Matthews’, Kucherovs’ and Laines’ of the world in their fantasy leagues. I hope the same will happen with the likes of Tkachuk, Chabot, Lajoie, White, Brown, Chlapik, Batherson, Formenton, Wolanin etc due to their hopeful emergence as studs who astute hockey fans follow due to said on ice studliness. I think bottom line is where a guy is from is the cherry on top of the cake and shouldn’t be of much concern when deciding who to build around. That’s all. For instance I’m convinced that the only reason Ceci is still on this team is due to the fact he’s from orleans. Dead serious. I don’t think you’re someone who would argue that’s a good reason for doing so, I’m just illustrating an extreme example of how far warped logic can go haha

 

[Masked]

I don't care about the word "local" at all, for me it doesn't even exist.

The mark of a truly self-centered person and definitely not Canadian values.

 

[PoutineSp00nZ]

The mark of a truly self-centered person and definitely not Canadian values.

Canadian values?

Hahaha

 

[Beville]

Interesting point to note, seven game point streak tied for new players with Daigle, Heatley and Kuba.

 

[Xspyrit]

The mark of a truly self-centered person and definitely not Canadian values.

Im from planet earth, half French half Italian and even some Austrian roots, Canadian for 25 years. I also lived in Switzerland and almost moved to Mexico a while back. My best friend is libanese, and my wife is half Jamaican, half Italian. So sorry to be open minded and living without frontier

Actually, wouldn’t your post kind of reveal that you are the one self centered?

Any other judgmental remark or is it going to be racism next post? You don’t really sound too Canadian.

 

[L'Aveuglette]

To be fair I saw at least two other posters chime in to discuss the value of having local players being placed as a priority when not specifically addressing you as part of a reply, so I didn’t see the point in signaling out anyone as it would miss the point entirely I was attempting to make. However your later response to @Multigrain clears the air on your specific perspective quite well, and it actually does make sense from a marketing POV given Ottawa’s proximity to Quebec. Conversely I think the same argument could be made of having players from the GTA on our squad to grab some of south western Ontario’s attention. Do I think it would work? No. Not really. I don’t think any of that matters unless your player personal is a productive NHL player. I think fans may look at where a guy is from and say “oh cool my neck of the woods” and then go on with their day drafting Matthews’, Kucherovs’ and Laines’ of the world in their fantasy leagues. I hope the same will happen with the likes of Tkachuk, Chabot, Lajoie, White, Brown, Chlapik, Batherson, Formenton, Wolanin etc due to their hopeful emergence as studs who astute hockey fans follow due to said on ice studliness. I think bottom line is where a guy is from is the cherry on top of the cake and shouldn’t be of much concern when deciding who to build around. That’s all. For instance I’m convinced that the only reason Ceci is still on this team is due to the fact he’s from orleans. Dead serious. I don’t think you’re someone who would argue that’s a good reason for doing so, I’m just illustrating an extreme example of how far warped logic can go haha

Unless you're a french Canadian from the Ottawa region, I don't think you would understand the attachment we can have to french-speaking players. It isn't at all like having players from the GTA.

Chabot and Lajoie are going to be huge in terms of reaching out across the river, and if we somehow get new ownership that actually understands the duality of the region the team is rooted in, I'm sure they will capitalize on their presence.

To be fair, the team has done a bit more lately in that regard(saw all three Queb players visit a Gatineau school for example), but really, Gatineau has to be seen as just as important as Ottawa is to growing the fanbase and having a few Québécois players is essential imo.

 

[Clayonator]

Unless you're a french Canadian from the Ottawa region, I don't think you would understand the attachment we can have to french-speaking players. It isn't at all like having players from the GTA.

Chabot and Lajoie are going to be huge in terms of reaching out across the river, and if we somehow get new ownership that actually understands the duality of the region the team is rooted in, I'm sure they will capitalize on their presence.

To be fair, the team has done a bit more lately in that regard(saw all three Queb players visit a Gatineau school for example), but really, Gatineau has to be seen as just as important as Ottawa is to growing the fanbase and having a few Québécois players is essential imo.

Oh I’m very much aware of it, and I’m not discounting it either. My point is it’s not the heighest of priorities nor should it be when contemplating keeping a player in the fold for the long term like Pageau vs someone else, if spending/available roster spots is a concern. That’s all.

And that’s not to say he shouldn’t be part of the future going forward either. I love the guy.

 

[Masked]

Unless you're a french Canadian from the Ottawa region, I don't think you would understand the attachment we can have to french-speaking players. It isn't at all like having players from the GTA.

Chabot and Lajoie are going to be huge in terms of reaching out across the river, and if we somehow get new ownership that actually understands the duality of the region the team is rooted in, I'm sure they will capitalize on their presence.

To be fair, the team has done a bit more lately in that regard(saw all three Queb players visit a Gatineau school for example), but really, Gatineau has to be seen as just as important as Ottawa is to growing the fanbase and having a few Québécois players is essential imo.

That's the sort of mindset that led to tanking for and drafting Alexandre Daigle. He was the quebecer that would drive all the francos to the Sens fanbase. Didn't happen. If you aren't going to be a fan of your local team when you choose your team, in all likelihood you're not a great person.

 

[DaveMatthew]

Tierney is like the Tom Preissing of forwards.

 

[NyQuil]

Tierney is like the Tom Preissing of forwards.

I thought of that, but I also think that Preissing was extremely sheltered (15 mins/game when he was +40) while I don't think Tierney is.

 

[Sens of Anarchy]

That's the sort of mindset that led to tanking for and drafting Alexandre Daigle. He was the quebecer that would drive all the francos to the Sens fanbase. Didn't happen. If you aren't going to be a fan of your local team when you choose your team, in all likelihood you're not a great person.

You are not serious right. So all the Sens fans living in Toronto or where Toronto is the closest team.. are not great people. What? Its sports .. cheer for who you like ...man.

 

[Smash88]

That's the sort of mindset that led to tanking for and drafting Alexandre Daigle. He was the quebecer that would drive all the francos to the Sens fanbase. Didn't happen. If you aren't going to be a fan of your local team when you choose your team, in all likelihood you're not a great person.

Daigle was a top pick no matter what language he spoke or where he was from. Him being french and the marketing around that was a bonus. He would of went number 1 to pretty much every team in the NHL.

 

[Masked]

You are not serious right. So all the Sens fans living in Toronto or where Toronto is the closest team.. are not great people. What? Its sports .. cheer for who you like ...man.

Pretty much. If you've grown up in Toronto and you support another team you're probably a pretty lousy person.

 

[Masked]

Daigle was a top pick no matter what language he spoke or where he was from. Him being french and the marketing around that was a bonus. He would of went number 1 to pretty much every team in the NHL.

Then shouldn't he have fixed any issues with the franco fans? He was a much bigger name when he was drafted than any Quebecer the Sens have ever had.

 

[coladin]

Im from planet earth, half French half Italian and even some Austrian roots, Canadian for 25 years. I also lived in Switzerland and almost moved to Mexico a while back. My best friend is libanese, and my wife is half Jamaican, half Italian. So sorry to be open minded and living without frontier

Actually, wouldn’t your post kind of reveal that you are the one self centered?

Any other judgmental remark or is it going to be racism next post? You don’t really sound too Canadian.

You gave that post alot more respect than I would have.

 

[Karl Eriksson]

Duchene is not going to be resigned.

Only the Sith deal in absolutes