Blue and Green
Out to lunch
- Dec 17, 2017
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Plenty more CHL '05s will follow as time goes along.
CHL can now play NCAA - change everything !
- Thread starter jtechkid
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Hockeyville USA
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NTDP
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To your first point - Yes that's fair, we can agree there.
2nd - Correct that's what I was saying earlier, USHLers leave before 20 and CHL draftees had to stay because of the CHL draft rule keeping their top 18-19's in the league. As you know it's either NHL or back to junior. I just wonder what the shift might look like now that they're NCAA eligible. This opens up a whole new option for even the mid round types to leave before twenty. If the top guys can leave and play in the AHL like you're saying, the next tier could move onto NCAA. Thus watering down the league which was my other original point.
I'm 25 minutes away from the Cleveland Monsters and go to several games a year and watch online. I'm going tomorrow for the Lumberjacks throwback night. Gavin Brindley is an example of who I'm talking about - wasn't first round but could have slid into the back of day 1. He absolutely would have been one of the better 19 y/o CHLers if he wasn't at Michigan and when I watch him play in the AHL there's times where he's good, but others where you see he needs to adjust to more physical players leaning on him when he tries to make plays with the puck, and pace of the game. He wouldn't have been ready at 18. Yes some of the high end teenagers could play there, but I don't think as big of a portion as suggested would have success and could hurt development. We'll see where this takes us but I appreciate the dialogue.
Nice to see more CCHA teams dip into the CHL player pool. Max was once a highly regarded player, who was even invited to the NTDP camp. He was then drafted 3rd overall by the Sarnia Sting. His size has always been a limiting factor and coupled with just average skating abilities doomed any chance at a legitimate pro career by the time he was 20/21. Enter the new NCAA eligibility rule and he now has another shot at that pro career. He is still highly rated (ranked comfortably in the top 100 in NZ top 500 04 NCAA eligibility birth rankings) and he should have a very solid four-year career at Bemidji.
There are perhaps 5-6 18-year-old elite players in any given year who have the strength and ability to play solid minutes in the AHL. There are more or less two dozen 19-year-old players who could do the same. It is a fairly small number, but this is who we mean when we say the elite prospects who may sign an ELC and forgo the NCAA route.
It's almost a certainty that the CHL-NHL agreement will be modified to allow players U-20 the option to sign and play in the NHL/AHL. Placing my ear to ground in this issue, I've heard that the CHL (desperately) wants certain guard rails and a hybrid system where players play up in the AHL and then sent back to the CHL by a certain date. No idea if the NHL and NHLPA will agree to this but I do know that the vast majority of NHL GM's want those CHL players to have the opportunity to play in the A if they cannot stick with the parent NHL club.
The real battle for top NCAA programs like a B.U. or Michigan is to convince those top end players to delay signing an ELC after being drafted and leave their CHL team in order to play their D+1 and hopefully their D+2 seasons in college. Now you can go back and read this thread as to how some of us think this may play out.
Kingpin794
Smart A** In A Jersey
This 100%. People sees guys in junior put up great numbers at 17/18 and think they will do well in the AHL. Its really not the case. If they do change the CBA to allow CHLers into the AHL before 20, I'd like to see it on a very limited basis. Something like you're limited to 1 U20 CHL player in the AHL per year. It should be about actual development and not just having a kid learn to survive in the AHL. This idea should extend to going to the NCAA as well. It's a half step below the AHL so guys picked in the top 40 or so picks should be able to handle NCAA at 18/19. But for guys picked round 3 and on, it should be about more than just surviving the NCAA.
One of the positive of the new rule it should make college hockey dramatically deeper which could have a lot of teams in the mix . Yea , BU - Michigan will get the stud kids at 18 but other programs start getting high end 20 year old kids from CHL verse kids from the Nahl could make huge difference . However , it looks to me college hockey just got little older not younger.
Strongly suggest you watch the podcasts done by Bob Turow and Dan K. They make the argument that the NCAA needs to get younger and not older, but you are correct, the NCAA will become much older.
Believe I linked these before but will do so again
The only college hockey fans happy about a bunch more 21 year old freshmen coming in are those supporting programs that have never figured out how to compete.
25 year olds playing against 18 (or 17) years old in college hockey is stupid.
25 year olds playing against 18 (or 17) years old in college hockey is stupid.
You do realize that for the past several years there have been far far more 21-year-old freshman than 18 your old ones, right?
This new rule change will probably make true freshman even scarcer, but this is the trajectory D-1 hockey has been on. It's a way for the smaller to mid-tier programs compete against the traditional powers.
All in all though, I wouldn't be opposed to a rule that limits 21-year-old freshman.
The 18 vs 21 stat makes sense. But I had seen a stat on here that I felt was incorrect on the number of freshmen by age, and I never saw a good link confirming it. I would reckon the average age of freshmen these days to be between like 19.8 and 20.4, but as I mentioned skewing higher and higher at the crappy schools.
So ya, I never liked 21 year old freshmen and this will just make the problem worse.
It’s completely ridiculous but the college’s don’t really care either . Their have been talk to lower age by one year which i think is just common sense ?
About six or seven years ago the Big 10 (hockey part) attempted to float a proposal limiting 20 year old freshman. It didn't get very far as most other conferences, teams and even the USHL/NAHL along with USA Hockey were adamantly opposed to the proposal.
The colleges don't care because it's the only way they can compete.
The programs trying to lower the age are the top 10-15 or so programs that bring in and develop young players, but they are outnumbered so it never passes.
It's the same reason regionals are not on campuses. The little loser schools are scared but they know they'll end up playing at the big schools in the first round more often than not.
I know. Our ex-coach was pushing that and we all wanted it.
Unfortunately, that is an almost impossibility in today's NCAA. They are openly discussing granting all players a 5th year eligibility and the recent JUCO court injunction pretty much ensures that D-1 hockey will be a league primarily consisting of 20–25-year-old players.
Kingpin794
Smart A** In A Jersey
I am curious why some people get hung up on NCAA hockey having players in the their 20's? Like is it just the American stereotypical ideal that college is for people aged 18-22 and anything outside of that is wrong? If you haven't used up your eligibility in some way, have at it. 60 year old freshman? Go for it. If people truly want NCAA hockey to be inline with other sports, junior hockey would have to be eliminated entirely and HS's would have to seriously step their game up. Neither of these things are likely to happen.
Most of us are looking at it from a developmental standpoint. We want those high end 18-year-old players to play college hockey and not remain in the CHL and then most likely opt for an ELC and go pro. The sweet spot for NHL prospect talent is between 18-20. We are already well on the way of basically eliminating most of those 18-year-old so, yeah I myself would love to see a rule outright banning 21-year-old freshman to give more 18- and 19-year-olds playing time.
Hockeyville USA
Registered User
It's a mostly Minnesotan complaint because Minnesota is the only state with competitive HS hockey that consistently produces D1 talent. Because of how hockey is structured. how expensive it is, lack of rinks in most of the country, and lack of significant minor hockey talent bases in most of the States, high schools having hockey is near impossible in most places. And even where possible, many programs are forced to co-op.
Junior hockey is a necessity to get the best talent together playing against one another. While minor hockey has become too profit motivated and thus expensive, it's necessary in most places to give kids a real opportunity to play high level hockey.
Is this a serious question?
The thread title is clear that players from the CHL can now go to the NCAA, something that players committing before this season didn't know.
Now no one knows the long term impacts of this change and a lot will depend on the next NHL agreement in terms of compensation to the CHL but 2 things are certain, things are going to change and no one knows exactly how much at this point.
WarriorofTime
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- Jul 3, 2010
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High-end players, like top 3 round picks, shouldn't be scare off by a bunch of 21 year old freshmen that aren't going anywhere. There won't be a seismic shift in college hockey demographics because these overagers are just committing to spots that already went to overagers... it's just a shuffling of which overagers get the spots.
The perverse effect (Kingpin) is that it makes it more and more apparent to rank and file players that in order to have the opportunity to play NCAA Hockey, you have to spend up to three players of your life after high school in a state of limbo. You're not fully in school as a student getting your degree from the school you intend to. You're not really working full time. You're just playing hockey. For players that aren't going anywhere with hockey, it's kind of a waste of time, but a necessary one to fulfill their goal of playing college hockey. It is what it is, but just unfortunate for individuals that would like to play D1 Hockey and also keep their life moving in the right direction so they aren't waiting until they're 25 to start their real post-hockey career.
The perverse effect (Kingpin) is that it makes it more and more apparent to rank and file players that in order to have the opportunity to play NCAA Hockey, you have to spend up to three players of your life after high school in a state of limbo. You're not fully in school as a student getting your degree from the school you intend to. You're not really working full time. You're just playing hockey. For players that aren't going anywhere with hockey, it's kind of a waste of time, but a necessary one to fulfill their goal of playing college hockey. It is what it is, but just unfortunate for individuals that would like to play D1 Hockey and also keep their life moving in the right direction so they aren't waiting until they're 25 to start their real post-hockey career.
Some could but a lot really couldn't and playing big MPG versus barely hanging around in the AHL which is a mens league is a larger jump than people are assuming here.
Heck alot of first rounders do just okay in the NCAA as it is right now and with the influx of some pretty good CHL 20 year olds the NCAA is going to get better as well.
Kingpin794
Smart A** In A Jersey
Is that really so bad? I bet most of these kids that are good enough for junior hockey want to play the sport for as long as they can. Even if it means they are just minor league lifers. They can always go to school/get the degree later. For most of these guys, this window is their peak in the sport they love. I don't think they care they are in "limbo" or that they might delay getting a 9 to 5 until they are in their late 20's or early 30's.
WarriorofTime
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- Jul 3, 2010
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Is it the worst thing to ever happen to society? No, not really. Is it a bit silly that we're putting hundreds of men into a further delayed state of adolescence to squeeze out every bit of athletic juice at what are functionally amateur levels? Perhaps. Would there be a point where it is "too much"? What if after Junior Hockey, it became the norm to play two additional seasons of Young Adult Hockey, where players aged out of Junior, then played their 21 and 22 year old seasons, and then entered NCAA Hockey at Age 23?
Kingpin794
Smart A** In A Jersey
That wording is a bit dramatic. I'd argue there's nothing silly about it. It's just people's arbitrary notions that at a certain age you need to be in the work force. Even more arbitrary when you apply that standard to high end athletes (and yes even 4th liners at low end programs are high end athletes).
As far as entering the NCAA at 23? If programs want to take those players, I have no objections.
covfefe
Zoltan Poszar's Burner
- Feb 5, 2014
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The pipeline from D1 athlete -> juicy first job offer is fairly robust. I've never met a hiring manager who thought high level athletic achievement was a -ve soft skill.
I also know dozens of ppl who have gone down this route - mostly to banking & consulting. So don't feel too bad - provided they have a functional brain, they'll land on their feet.
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