Bryce Lampman is from Minnesota and signed with the Blazers way back when.I don't think you've looked at a map lately.
CHL can now play NCAA - change everything !
- Thread starter jtechkid
- Start date
Bubbles
Die Hard for Bedard 2023
Congratulations! Now you can explain why an entire state EAST of the closest WHL outpost in Brandon would want to play in the WESTERN HOCKEY LEAGUE. If anything, they would join the OHL.
You also downplay the importance of the Minnesota High School system. It's absolutely huge down there, as some fellow US posters can attest.
Bubbles
Die Hard for Bedard 2023
The user was talking about WHL expanding into Minnesota, not players from Minnesota into the WHL.
Given how rare is it for 18-19 year old prospects to get top playing time in the NCAA, I wouldn't be surprised to see more good American prospects play their D+0 and D+1 seasons in the CHL before moving to the NCAA. Players like Henry Thrun, Jack Devine, Ryan Chesley, Devin Kaplan, etc. that were fairly high draft picks (e.g 2nd or 3rd rounders) and good enough to be in the USNDTP, but needed an extra year or two of seasoning in junior before they were ready to be good college players.
In no way did my post imply that...it's impossible for the CHL to absorb "everyone" because not everyone is good enough for the CHL, hence the likely continuation of Canadian Jr A. and the USHL.
WarriorofTime
Registered User
- Jul 3, 2010
- 31,534
- 20,607
Yeah, good Canadian USHLers have less reason for existing, for present season that's 7/50 of the top scorers. For Americans, a bit less uncertain, probably more gap year NTDP-ers go CHL, but probably bulk of Americans still are playing USHL (some had already been playing OHL or WHL before). Question is if USHL can still serve as a strong NCAA feeder, I think so, probably for same reason you don't see every Finnish kid worth a lick rush over to the border to play for Swedish youth teams. Different countries have different pipelines generally speaking.
Blue and Green
Out to lunch
- Dec 17, 2017
- 4,015
- 4,226
Minnesota is in WHL's territory, not OHL's. And Minnesota is a long way from any current OHL city.
If the WHL decides that it has enough talent and there's ownership interest, it's possible that it might expand into that area. Fargo and Sioux Falls have USHL franchises; putting a team in the Twin Cities area might be viable. WHL would probably like to get back into Winnipeg. Between those four and Brandon, I don't see why the travel would be an issue. Prince George is about six hours from Kamloops, the nearest WHL city, and 7-8 hours from Kelowna and Edmonton which are the next closest two. The league is already spread across the western half of the country plus the northwest of the US.
Minnesota high school hockey doesn't seem particularly relevant to the issue. USHL stripped most of its talent decades ago.
WarriorofTime
Registered User
- Jul 3, 2010
- 31,534
- 20,607
This is not as simple as you make it out. Many kids stay in MN HS Hockey until they graduate high school, perhaps supplementing with the USHL when they are 17 if they are good enough, and then go to USHL when they are 18/19/maybe 20 followed by NCAA. Sub in the word "Prep School" for MN HS for much of the country... and that you're usually already starting from a position of "kids that weren't picked for the 25 player USNTDP" that it's not so straightforward that a bunch of 16 year olds are going to pack their bags and move to Canada [again I'd expect the biggest growth there to come in the OHL states]
Blue and Green
Out to lunch
- Dec 17, 2017
- 4,015
- 4,226
What I meant is that I felt that the presence of high school hockey wouldn't have all that much affect on whether or not the CHL puts a team in Minnesota. NCAA D1 programs would seem to me like the bigger deterrent in some towns. But there aren't any USHL franchises in Minnesota (a couple within just a few miles) so who knows, maybe anything other than high school or university hockey wouldn't fly there.
Anyway, I said only that it wouldn't surprise me if the WHL goes into that area. No guarantee. We'll see what happens.
Pavel Buchnevich
"Pavel Buchnevich The Fake"
Okay, so you meant something even more ridiculous.
Amazing some people don’t understand that not everyone finds the CHL appealing. That includes players of all nationalities. Incredible people don’t understand this.
Geography makes it difficult for the WHL to expand into the Minnesota region. It would be a minimum 8-hour bus ride from the Minneapolis region to the nearest WHL city in Brandon. Rochester would be even further. The WHL would have to grant Winnipeg another franchise (or relocation) but where would a Dub team play in that city? They could try and poach Sioux Falls and Fargo from the USHL (two franchises with the financial means and fan support to able to play in the WHL) and then place a team in Minnesota but again, we are still talking really long distances between cities. So I'm not really sure you will see, in the near future, much WHL expansion into the Midwest/plains region of the U.S.
The Q expansion into the New England region is very likely within the next couple of years, however, and I can see the OHL adding a team or two in the N.Y/Penn area.
With this rule change, I think it's time the CHL adopt some sort of tender system or a hybrid/draft tender system like the USHL. There are going to be a lot of players bound for NCAA, who would otherwise play elsewhere, wanting to play CHL, and I think it would be optimal to afford them even more choice in their development. This would further ensure that high-end players eyeing NCAA play in the respective CHL leagues.
I still feel there are USHL franchises that will have more appeal than some CHL teams and, if a trade cannot be made, players would still choose that route over the bad CHL team. For example, it is pretty clear that James Scantlebury, a high end 2027 prospect, is eyeing NCAA. He will likely have his pick of USHL tenders and will likely go very high in the QMJHL draft after the rule change. If he is drafted by my hometown Cape Breton Eagles, who are notoriously dysfunctional, and they refuse to trade him for whatever reason, I still feel he would rather develop in Chicago, Muskegon, etc. than in Cape Breton.
I get that small market CHL teams can draft these players and get a kings ransom trading them to London, Quebec, Kelowna, etc., but I think even allowing 1-2 tenders per team would go a long way without distorting the talent pool drastically in favour of big markets.
I still feel there are USHL franchises that will have more appeal than some CHL teams and, if a trade cannot be made, players would still choose that route over the bad CHL team. For example, it is pretty clear that James Scantlebury, a high end 2027 prospect, is eyeing NCAA. He will likely have his pick of USHL tenders and will likely go very high in the QMJHL draft after the rule change. If he is drafted by my hometown Cape Breton Eagles, who are notoriously dysfunctional, and they refuse to trade him for whatever reason, I still feel he would rather develop in Chicago, Muskegon, etc. than in Cape Breton.
I get that small market CHL teams can draft these players and get a kings ransom trading them to London, Quebec, Kelowna, etc., but I think even allowing 1-2 tenders per team would go a long way without distorting the talent pool drastically in favour of big markets.
Last edited:
SergeConstantin74
Always right.
- Jul 7, 2007
- 12,646
- 8,009
Tenders would distort the talent pool even more drastically in favour of big markets. As an example, last draft if Quebec tenders Dagenais, Cape Breton gets absolutely nothing. They still draft Litalien and don’t get the extra picks that came with the trade (1st 2026, 2nd 2025).
I'm fine with it if it brings the best talent to the league. As a QMJHL fan living in Halifax, I would rather Scantlebury tender with Quebec than Chicago.
Bathurst, Val'dor, Rouyn (x2) and Victoriaville have managed to win titles in the last 10 years. There is more to winning than just drafting the most high end players.
Last edited:
SergeConstantin74
Always right.
- Jul 7, 2007
- 12,646
- 8,009
Yes they won because the draft is actually working out for dispersing the talent pool among teams. Two of those won with Dobson who was the best defenseman to play in the league for the last 10 years. He played for two small markets because he wasn’t tendered.
Who is to say that Dobson, who is from PEI, wouldn't tender with Charlottetown?
There are also only 20 odd spots available per team and so much ice time to go around. If high end players tender with the best teams, that pushes some depth pieces to other teams in the league and makes them stronger. The London Knights are the crown jewel of the CHL and de facto operate like they're in a tender system, and they still don't win the league each year.
The CHL is basically the only league in the world that has the fate of 16 year old's dictated by the teams that draft them. I don't think a bit of innovation would hurt. Like I said, I understand this would be advantageous to large markets, but having more draft picks doesn't help teams like Cape Breton all that much when nobody wants to play there. It is up to the organizations to cultivate an environment where players want to play.
Last edited:
Dobson's agent. He would not report to Charlottetown.
If the QMJHL had a tender system, the best two players (or 4 if they were allowed 2 tenders) would report to Halifax and Quebec every single season. The scale of those two versus the rest is absolutely massive.
The present system still allows for the big markets to go after the kids that don't want to play anywhere, but they either need to use quality picks or they need to trade for rights.
Maybe back then, but Hulton has changed their culture since then. If he would report to the 16-17 Titan, he would report to the 24-25 Islanders under Hulton. Again, it is up to the organizations to put in place the right personnel and environment for players to succeed. Halifax, Quebec, Moncton and Saint John have always been able to recruit the best of the best and they still don't win every season.
The consequences of tendering are also important. If you lose a 1st and 2nd round pick (or more for two players), for example, that gives you less capital to acquire talent to go along with the tendered players, but it gives players more choice and may draw more talent to the league than would otherwise be the case.
Last edited:
No, this argument makes the league as a whole weaker. Again, the top kids will pick the top markets every year. If Quebec and Halifax are guaranteed every single superstar, then they won't go through any real cycles. This means that a bad year or two for half the league could make rebuilding almost impossible (kids aren't tendering in Val D'Or, Rouyn-Noranda or Cape Breton unless they are from there and even then would choose Quebec and Halifax over home).
That is quite a leap to make. Chicago tendered the best players every year for about the last 5 years in the USHL and has one title to show for it. There is a lot more talent available for teams to draft/tender than just the top 1-2 kids each year.
I also don't understand how this makes the league 'weaker'. If you can bring in guys like Scantlebury, Charbonneau, etc, plus some eastern American players to the league who otherwise wouldn't play there without tendering, this displaces talent to other teams as there is only so much ice to go around.
Anyways, I've presented my argument. You're free to continue to disagree but I don't want to spend any more time in this thread debating it.
You are comparing a lot of 1 and done players to a system where Quebec/Halifax will get 4 years out of each tender.
Under a tender system, Quebec would have Ethan Gauthier, Tomas Lavoie, Caleb Desnoyers and Maddox Dagenais on their roster regardless of where their pick was (possibly Masse instead of Lavoie).
Over the same period, Halifax would have Peddle, Lavoie/Masse/Poirier, Guite or Morin, and Tynan Lawrence.
Quebec would give up picks 12, 18, 20, and 4 for these guys while Halifax would give up picks 6, 11, 19, and 15 for the top guys though a tender system.
While it is a different approach, it dramatically favors the top teams in a league where they get years of control.
I think the big argument why is CHL being defined as the big winner in this ruling . If you look at history recently USA players in the NHL have grown dramatically in relation to Canadiens .
Yea , after listening to USHL commish podcast and he said he met with top nhl exec for a longtime - including Bettman( from NJ) about make sure growing the game in the USA . In addition , talk about adding ushl teams out east with partnership with NHL teams . The big growth and $ expansion is all based in the USA not Canada so NHL knows this and has resources to protect usa junior leagues . I think in short term CHL will win some guys but over longterm I think UshL will be fine and will thrive .
Those would be great teams to be sure. Insurmountable for other Q teams with veteran-laden rosters in a seven game series? I personally don't think so.
We are also assuming that the type of players that would be tendered would remain in the Q for 4 years. I don't think anyone has any degree of certainty as to how the migration of CHL talent to the NCAA will occur over the next few years. Perhaps they only stay two years like Fantilli, Power and Hage. I recognize that the high-end Quebec/Maritime players looking to play QMJHL only would also be captured, but who is to say how this brave new world unfolds.
Last edited:
Hockeyville USA
Registered User
Sure, but the bottom end of the USHL is pretty terrible, a lot of 18-20 year old bums to be honest, many of them taking away ice time from more talented youngsters. But it is a defensive league where defense is played better than the Q & O for sure. Or is it a league that doesn't have enough top end talent because the NTDP takes a lot of guys away from the other teams and the USHL's best producers just leave for the NCAA once they can?
The NCAA is going to win regardless, an infusion of medium to higher end talent from the CHL will boost nearly every program.
Last edited:
agree on ushl - the amount of big goons that stink is way too high and omaha couple other teams are not good - thats why i think lot of high end skills from usa - canada went to bchl .
WarriorofTime
Registered User
- Jul 3, 2010
- 31,534
- 20,607
I’m an advocate of telling teams to “git gud” rather than force 16 year olds into undesirable situations so that grownups can make money off them without having to put in more work. This isn’t real pro sports here where players get compensated millions to have to bear it out with a crappy team that drafts them. The mini NHL model doesn’t make a ton of sense with teenage amateurs. Just my two cents.
