CHL can now play NCAA - change everything !

Blue and Green

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Dec 17, 2017
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Would more 20YO really help with the talent level though? We can assume that most decent 20YO will be either in college already or about to enter college, so what will you really be left with?

The CHL is about to gain a large influx of talent, especially from the U.S, within the next couple of seasons. That influx will help mitigate the loss of some 18 and 19 YO players that will jump to the NCAA.

I guess if the CHL says, forget it, D1 is going to 26 scholarships from 18, nobody age 20 that they don't take will be worth keeping, that would negate the idea. But it must surely be worth studying.
Between allowing CHLers and the additional scholarships, D1 will be getting strong enough that it might be able to afford to let a lot of decent 20YO's get another year of maturation before taking them. Might as well be CHL where they play instead of CIS or D3. Better for CHL to have solid 20YO's who can outplay some of the less talented younger options, and better for those guys and for D1 programs if they can play junior instead of CIS or D3 to save a year of D1 eligibility.
 

SergeConstantin74

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Jul 7, 2007
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Another one… Alexandre Taillefer is joining the Remparts.


QMJHL seems to have some success so far to bring back its top talent with the rule change. Lottin, Taillefer and Benoit were 1st round talent at the last Q Draft. Tynan Lawrence and Cameron Chartrand are the other two heading to NCAA and not playing in the Q.
 
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Kingpin794

Smart A** In A Jersey
Apr 25, 2012
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Another one… Alexandre Taillefer is joining the Remparts.


QMJHL seems to have some success so far to bring back its top talent with the rule change. Lottin, Taillefer and Benoit were 1st round talent at the last Q Draft. Tynan Lawrence and Cameron Chartrand are the other two heading to NCAA and not playing in the Q.
2 fold surprised that the Q is reaping the benefits of this new ruling so quickly and that there's been the least amount of movement in the WHL.
 

Corso

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Aug 13, 2018
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I guess if the CHL says, forget it, D1 is going to 26 scholarships from 18, nobody age 20 that they don't take will be worth keeping, that would negate the idea. But it must surely be worth studying.
Between allowing CHLers and the additional scholarships, D1 will be getting strong enough that it might be able to afford to let a lot of decent 20YO's get another year of maturation before taking them. Might as well be CHL where they play instead of CIS or D3. Better for CHL to have solid 20YO's who can outplay some of the less talented younger options, and better for those guys and for D1 programs if they can play junior instead of CIS or D3 to save a year of D1 eligibility.

Possibly but I am not sure that this will help with the overall skill level of the league. I can see if they keep the limit at 3, that an older deeper NCAA would afford the CHL decent over agers but expanding it to say 6 probably would not. A player that cannot enter the NCAA may very well give up that option, take his CHL scholarship package, play pro for a year and then go and play U-Sports, rather than wait and play for a mid tier or lower D-1 program.
The reality is that no one knows exactly how this will shake out as between the NCAA and CHL specifically. Making declarative statements about this league retaining/gaining certain players vis a vis the other league is just conjecture. This is a message board so speculation is par for the course, but any definitiveness should be treated skeptically.

No, no one does but we can make some very educated guesses as to the trajectory this rule change will take.

There are some here (and I think I discussed this previously on this thread) that believe that the CHL will become the new USHL and the NCAA will become the top of the pyramid in amateur development for the NHL.

There are others that feel that this will minimally impact the CHL or the USHL or the current structure of amateur hockey. They feel that most NCAA bound players, especially if they are American will continue to go and play in the USHL or the BCHL.

Some others believe that the CHL will keep all of its 18 and 19 year old players and only those that have filled their contractual obligations to the league will leave for the NCAA.

Having talked to enough people that are close to the situation and reading some excellent reporting, I'm pretty confident in stating that scenarios two and three are highly unlikely and the end result will be some type of synthesis of scenarios one and four.

The CHL does not want to be the new USHL, nor does it want to be seen as feeder to the NCAA first and foremost. The three commissioners of each league, and the ownership groups are aware, however, that a full scholarship offer from a "blue blood" institution is a very enticing proposition to a recently drafted 18 YO and even more so to a 19YO. The NCAA offers a very unique lifestyle, coupled with excellent personal and athletic development. There is simply no way that some of these players spurn offers from a Michigan or a B.U. The CHL will lose players to the NCAA before they age out and I would bet money on it!

The question is, what percentage of these player will they lose, and the answer will determine as to who will be seen as the proverbial top of the pyramid. What some here may not understand or be aware of is that the CHL and NHL are quite close (and I mean close) much more so than the NCAA or even the American coaches association. This allows the CHL to lobby for their interests directly to the NHL. The new three commissioners have also become acutely aware of the power of agents and agencies in helping players make decisions and are cozying up the more prominent ones. What the CHL will do is encourage players that are drafted to sign ELCs in order to negate NCAA eligibility (and I will bet money on this also!).

The job of the NCAA, through their own lobbying of agents and through college hockey inc will be to convince these players to delay signing their ELCs and play college hockey for at least a couple of seasons.

How the NHL and the PA come down on player retention rights, the CHL-NHL agreement and the path they want their prospects to take will be the ultimate decision maker on how this plays out. Know this though, the NHL (and particularly NHL GMs) like to have a direct hand with player development. They like to see their prospects at rookie orientation camps and then the main development camps. Agents, due to the nature of their business, want to see their clients sign NHL ELCs sooner rather than later.

My sense in all of this is that the NHL will really like the ability to give its later round picks or players not quite ready for the AHL/NHL the longer runway that the NCAA route offers but that the majority of the high-end talents will sign and forgo the NCAA route
 
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WarriorofTime

Registered User
Jul 3, 2010
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2 fold surprised that the Q is reaping the benefits of this new ruling so quickly and that there's been the least amount of movement in the WHL.
Another one… Alexandre Taillefer is joining the Remparts.


QMJHL seems to have some success so far to bring back its top talent with the rule change. Lottin, Taillefer and Benoit were 1st round talent at the last Q Draft. Tynan Lawrence and Cameron Chartrand are the other two heading to NCAA and not playing in the Q.
The Q teams are probably the most able to guarantee the Ringers a first line role considering how much of the Q goes undrafted compared to the others. I think players would be less likely to leave a 1st line BCHL/USHL Role (especially if they aren't drafted yet) in the middle of a season to maybe play 3rd line.
 

WarriorofTime

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Jul 3, 2010
31,383
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No, no one does but we can make some very educated guesses as to the trajectory this rule change will take.
....
My sense in all of this is that the NHL will really like the ability to give its later round picks or players not quite ready for the AHL/NHL the longer runway that the NCAA route offers but that the majority of the high-end talents will sign and forgo the NCAA route
I think the most obvious point is the CHL-NHL Transfer Agreement and NHL CBA as it pertains to the rights of drafted players and must sign dates is the most important domino in all of it.

I had suggested that perhaps the NHL could simplify and keep time on reserve list the same regardless of what league a North American player is originally drafted them. I think some here dismissed it out of hand, but I'm not sure the reasoning as to why.

I don't really see why NHL teams wouldn't want their prospects to go NCAA after being drafted so long as they are not running a risk of losing them to the free agent rule. From a competitive standpoint, even if for three straight years you see nothing but CHL Age-Outs that have minimal pro prospects go into the NCAA, along with whomever else would have been in NCAA prior, that still has an uptick on overall level of NCAA play.

Instead of being in CHL playing against all those 17-20 year olds that are good enough to play elite junior hockey but not good enough to play NHL/AHL, you're playing those same players when they are 20-23 as they continue getting older/stronger/better. Combine this with a mix of already existing NCAA players, including the NHL prospects who are generally concentrated in the same Conferences (hence why averaging analysis works less for NCAA, some teams have a lot of pro prospects, some teams have none and some conferences have a lot of those teams, some have none, and the meaty part of a college team's schedule is their conference games).

So you'd expect this to create a downward pressure from NHL teams and players alike to want to play in the NCAA once they've essentially conquered Junior Hockey. There is no need for a 3rd or 4th season there if they already have shown what they can do at that level if there is an opportunity right there to face an older, but similar makeup, player pool. A next stage in the development pipeline so to speak.

There's also an added benefit of not being on an artificial timeline of when they will matriculate to the AHL. They can sign whenever they're ready, a mutual give and take process between player and team. That's why so many good NCAA prospects skip or only spend minimal time in the AHL once they sign their ELC, if they know they aren't playing in the NHL, many would rather stick another year in college. Again, only real concern is if they wait around they can start leveraging the threat of not signing and becoming a Free Agent to force their way somewhere else. That feels like one of those "fixes" that can be had, but also being fair to players that teams don't have interest in signing to not be held hostage on a reserve list if a different team would have signed them [that's essentially the logic of Waivers].

That doesn't mean that's how it might work if people in NHL positions are all buddies with people in Junior Hockey positions and everyone is concerned with scratching each other's back and making sure pockets are filled.. but I think it's the system that would make the most sense from a logical ordering.
 

SergeConstantin74

Always right.
Jul 7, 2007
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The Q teams are probably the most able to guarantee the Ringers a first line role considering how much of the Q goes undrafted compared to the others. I think players would be less likely to leave a 1st line BCHL/USHL Role (especially if they aren't drafted yet) in the middle of a season to maybe play 3rd line.

Just a thought, for 2 of the kids I named (Lottin and Benoit), the BCHL is a long way from home. For kids from the WHL, it's different because it's already close to home.
 

WarriorofTime

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Jul 3, 2010
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Just a thought, for 2 of the kids I named (Lottin and Benoit), the BCHL is a long way from home. For kids from the WHL, it's different because it's already close to home.
Yes, a French-Canadian kid would probably rather play close to home all else being equal, but if they had been concerned that QMJHL -> Pro pipeline was drying up and so wanted to have NCAA in there, then QMJHL -> NCAA -> Pro is a more appealing personal option than BCHL -> NCAA -> Pro
 

Blue and Green

Out to lunch
Dec 17, 2017
3,928
4,114
I think the most obvious point is the CHL-NHL Transfer Agreement and NHL CBA as it pertains to the rights of drafted players and must sign dates is the most important domino in all of it.

I had suggested that perhaps the NHL could simplify and keep time on reserve list the same regardless of what league a North American player is originally drafted them. I think some here dismissed it out of hand, but I'm not sure the reasoning as to why.

I don't really see why NHL teams wouldn't want their prospects to go NCAA after being drafted so long as they are not running a risk of losing them to the free agent rule. From a competitive standpoint, even if for three straight years you see nothing but CHL Age-Outs that have minimal pro prospects go into the NCAA, along with whomever else would have been in NCAA prior, that still has an uptick on overall level of NCAA play.

Instead of being in CHL playing against all those 17-20 year olds that are good enough to play elite junior hockey but not good enough to play NHL/AHL, you're playing those same players when they are 20-23 as they continue getting older/stronger/better. Combine this with a mix of already existing NCAA players, including the NHL prospects who are generally concentrated in the same Conferences (hence why averaging analysis works less for NCAA, some teams have a lot of pro prospects, some teams have none and some conferences have a lot of those teams, some have none, and the meaty part of a college team's schedule is their conference games).

So you'd expect this to create a downward pressure from NHL teams and players alike to want to play in the NCAA once they've essentially conquered Junior Hockey. There is no need for a 3rd or 4th season there if they already have shown what they can do at that level if there is an opportunity right there to face an older, but similar makeup, player pool. A next stage in the development pipeline so to speak.

There's also an added benefit of not being on an artificial timeline of when they will matriculate to the AHL. They can sign whenever they're ready, a mutual give and take process between player and team. That's why so many good NCAA prospects skip or only spend minimal time in the AHL once they sign their ELC, if they know they aren't playing in the NHL, many would rather stick another year in college. Again, only real concern is if they wait around they can start leveraging the threat of not signing and becoming a Free Agent to force their way somewhere else. That feels like one of those "fixes" that can be had, but also being fair to players that teams don't have interest in signing to not be held hostage on a reserve list if a different team would have signed them [that's essentially the logic of Waivers].

That doesn't mean that's how it might work if people in NHL positions are all buddies with people in Junior Hockey positions and everyone is concerned with scratching each other's back and making sure pockets are filled.. but I think it's the system that would make the most sense from a logical ordering.
If you're advocating for a blanket age or timeline on retention of rights, suggest one.
 

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