GDT: CHICAR

[bleedgreen]

I don't know why you roll your goddamned eyes at me when the crux of your argument centers on Lindy, whom I didn't mention.

Fact of the matter is there were much better picks available than either of the two I did mention, and although as mentioned hindsight is 20/20, Ron, if he were a better GM, would have picked better players.

The day we took Hanifin I actually wanted Provorov but there wasn’t anyone other than Craig Button saying we shouldn’t take Hanifin. People were calling the draft Mceichelfin all year.

You can at least make the argument against Fleury but just about everyone had him in the top ten. It wasn’t remotely a reach. It was a good pick. Other guys worked out better, which always happens. You’re the first person I’ve seen actually venting against the Hanifin pick. That was a slam dunk obvious choice.

 

[Blueline Bomber]

I don't know why you roll your goddamned eyes at me when the crux of your argument centers on Lindy, whom I didn't mention.

Fact of the matter is there were much better picks available than either of the two I did mention, and although as mentioned hindsight is 20/20, Ron, if he were a better GM, would have picked better players.

Your ignorance of the entire scouting/drafting process is summed up in that bolded statement. And as already mentioned, neither pick was a reach, nor were they unexpected. At the time of the respective draft picks, Hanifin/Fleury were one of the best players available in a position in which we were weak.

To say otherwise is just using hindsight in a sad and obvious attempt to discredit Francis.

 

[TheReelChuckFletcher]

IDC what anyone says about Fleury and Hanifin, they were good picks at the time and both seem like they have grown into legitimate NHL-caliber defensemen. Fleury's still in our organization and is up with the big team (seemingly for good), and Hanifin is a valuable, young, cost-controlled piece in Calgary. You can argue about other picks made by other teams being better choices, but it's not as if either of them are busts or anything like that. It's all sour grapes at this point, and it's pretty ugly to listen to, especially since our team is mastering the development game now and is on track to be perennial contenders.

 

[My Special Purpose]

IMO, Francis wasn't a bad GM here, but he was an inexperienced one. Look at Waddell now. Sometimes, you just have to make mistakes to learn lessons. I think if you got Francis in a moment of honesty, he'd admit he made some mistakes here.

In the specific cases of Hanifin and Fleury, I think even Francis would acknowledge that you just can't take a defenseman in the top 10 unless they're elite. In the eight drafts between 2009 and 2016, 26 defensemen were taken in the top 10. By my count, 13 were worth their draft position, and even a couple of them are shaky with the forwards who went in the second 10. The value just isn't good enough. You could make the argument that Hanifin fit this qualification (if you didn't buy the "he peaked at 18" line of thinking), but probably not Fleury. His offense was never there.

I also think he allowed himself to be sucked in to drafting for need which -- even when it seems obvious -- is just never a good idea. We ignored defense through the JR era and RF wanted to show that it wasn't going to be that way on his watch.

I also think he'd acknowledge being a bit timid, but again, his tenure wasn't great, and it wasn't awful. We're in good shape now, and some of that is thanks to him and his "process." But there is no reason "fixing" an NHL team has to take five seasons in the salary cap era. The RF era was a bit too old school for my tastes, but it wasn't terrible.

2009
2 - Hedman, TBL*
6 - OEL, PHX*
9 - Cowen, OTT

2010
3 - Gudbrandson, FLA
10 - McIlrath, NYR

2011
4 - Larsson, NJD
9 - Hamilton, BOS*
10 - Brodin, MIN

2012
2 - Murray, CLB
4 - Reinhart, NYI
5 - Reilly, TOR*
6 - Lindholm, ANA*
7 - Dumba, MIN*
8 - Pouliot, PIT
9 - Trouba, WPG*
10 - Koekkoek, TBL
(Forsberg 11, Wilson 16, Hertl 17, Teravainen 18)

2013
4 - Jones, CLB*
7 - Nurse, EDM*
8 - Ristolainen, BUF

2014
1 - Ekblad, FLA*
7 - Fleury, CAR
(Nylander 8, Ehlers 9, Fiala 11, Vrana 13, Larkin 15, Tuch 18)

2015
5 - Hanifin, CAR
7 - Provorov, PHI*
8 - Werenski, CLB*
(Meier 9, Rantanen 10, DeBrusk 14, Barzal 16, Connor 17)

2016
5 - Juolevi, VAN
9 - Sergachev, TBL*

 

[bleedgreen]

IMO, Francis wasn't a bad GM here, but he was an inexperienced one. Look at Waddell now. Sometimes, you just have to make mistakes to learn lessons. I think if you got Francis in a moment of honesty, he'd admit he made some mistakes here.

In the specific cases of Hanifin and Fleury, I think even Francis would acknowledge that you just can't take a defenseman in the top 10 unless they're elite. In the eight drafts between 2009 and 2016, 26 defensemen were taken in the top 10. By my count, 13 were worth their draft position, and even a couple of them are shaky with the forwards who went in the second 10. The value just isn't good enough. You could make the argument that Hanifin fit this qualification (if you didn't buy the "he peaked at 18" line of thinking), but probably not Fleury. His offense was never there.

I also think he allowed himself to be sucked in to drafting for need which -- even when it seems obvious -- is just never a good idea. We ignored defense through the JR era and RF wanted to show that it wasn't going to be that way on his watch.

I also think he'd acknowledge being a bit timid, but again, his tenure wasn't great, and it wasn't awful. We're in good shape now, and some of that is thanks to him and his "process." But there is no reason "fixing" an NHL team has to take five seasons in the salary cap era. The RF era was a bit too old school for my tastes, but it wasn't terrible.

2009
2 - Hedman, TBL*
6 - OEL, PHX*
9 - Cowen, OTT

2010
3 - Gudbrandson, FLA
10 - McIlrath, NYR

2011
4 - Larsson, NJD
9 - Hamilton, BOS*
10 - Brodin, MIN

2012
2 - Murray, CLB
4 - Reinhart, NYI
5 - Reilly, TOR*
6 - Lindholm, ANA*
7 - Dumba, MIN*
8 - Pouliot, PIT
9 - Trouba, WPG*
10 - Koekkoek, TBL
(Forsberg 11, Wilson 16, Hertl 17, Teravainen 18)

2013
4 - Jones, CLB*
7 - Nurse, EDM*
8 - Ristolainen, BUF

2014
1 - Ekblad, FLA*
7 - Fleury, CAR
(Nylander 8, Ehlers 9, Fiala 11, Vrana 13, Larkin 15, Tuch 18)

2015
5 - Hanifin, CAR
7 - Provorov, PHI*
8 - Werenski, CLB*
(Meier 9, Rantanen 10, DeBrusk 14, Barzal 16, Connor 17)

2016
5 - Juolevi, VAN
9 - Sergachev, TBL*

Everyone thought Hanifin was somewhere between exceptional and elite as a prospect. I’m failing to see how Francis was sucked in taking him. Meyer or Rantanen over Hanifin that high? What’s the point of even showing all the other would be picks? No one would’ve taken any of them where we were drafting Hanifin’s year. Vrana over Fleury?!? You can argue the defenseman concept you’re throwing out there all you like, no one would’ve taken the majority of forwards you’re listing at the Canes spot. Argue Nylander and Ehlers over Fleury. I at least get it but the others? Don’t hold Francis to a standard that no other gm would’ve achieved.

Waddell would’ve taken Meier over Hanifin? Cmon. Hanifin definitely wasn’t drafting for need, exactly the opposite. I think they wanted a forward and had hinted at so. We thought we were getting Marner or Strome! Hanifin fell and we took who we thought was the best prospect. We all thought after Hanifin at 3 there was a drop off.

 

[Negan4Coach]

He picked plenty of good players, including Sebastian Aho, and he would have picked Svech if the 2nd pick had fallen into his lap, and he traded magic beans for Turbo.

But again: if it's Ron Francis you care about, go join the Seattle forum. It's all blue sky over there!

I never said he didn't pick good players- he certainly deserves credit for the 2nd round magic. I don't hate the guy, I think he was a decent GM for a rebuild.

I don't like his 1st round picks- I didn't at the time and I don't now.

 

[MinJaBen]

We got very little for Lindy imo, because to me Hanifin got us the majority of Dougie.

Well, you’d be wrong. After the trade there was an interview with Don and he said the way it went down was that the Flames originally inquired about Lindy, not Noah. Noah was only added to the trade once the Flames and Canes couldn’t come to a smaller trade for Lindy and something. The trade got bigger and Hamilton and Noah were added.

If the trade didn’t include Lindholm, there wouldn’t have been a trade at all.

 

[bleedgreen]

Well, you’d be wrong. After the trade there was an interview with Don and he said the way it went down was that the Flames originally inquired about Lindy, not Noah. Noah was only added to the trade once the Flames and Canes couldn’t come to a smaller trade for Lindy and something. The trade got bigger and Hamilton and Noah were added.

If the trade didn’t include Lindholm, there wouldn’t have been a trade at all.

We’ve heard the trade was about many different players. Can I see this? We’ve all talked about this before and it’s never come up. I’m not questioning you I’m sincerely curious.

If Hamilton got added later then I don’t understand your point? I’m not saying they didn’t want Lindy first. That’s irrelevant. If they weren’t even talking about Hamilton then how do we know Hanifin wouldn’t have gotten it done? That doesn’t make sense.

 

[MinJaBen]

We’ve heard the trade was about many different players. Can I see this? We’ve all talked about this before and it’s never come up. I’m not questioning you I’m sincerely curious.

If Hamilton got added later then I don’t understand your point? I’m not saying they didn’t want Lindy first. That’s irrelevant. If they weren’t even talking about Hamilton then how do we know Hanifin wouldn’t have gotten it done? That doesn’t make sense.

My point is that your statement of "We got very little for Lindy..." is just false. The whole trade happened because the Flames reached out in an effort to get Lindy. If he wasn't part of the deal, there was no trade to be had. So, the rest of the trade was just swapping value between the teams as they saw fit so the Flames could get Lindy and the Canes could get the value in the trade they desired.

 

[bleedgreen]

My point is that your statement of "We got very little for Lindy..." is just false. The whole trade happened because the Flames reached out in an effort to get Lindy. If he wasn't part of the deal, there was no trade to be had. So, the rest of the trade was just swapping value between the teams as they saw fit so the Flames could get Lindy and the Canes could get the value in the trade they desired.

They walked away from the original talks. There were rumors Bennett was involved. I would’ve been fine with Lindy for Bennett, and I wouldn’t have a negative opinion at all of the trade if it had been Bennett and Hamilton the whole time. My feelings about the trade have been exactly the same for 15 months of talking about this trade so you threw me here with this out of the blue.

This trade happened because they revisited it the second day of the draft, no? When we didn’t get anything done we went back to them and finished the deal. I don’t get your point I guess. If they wanted Lindy and Hamilton/Hanifin weren’t even in the deal yet then how do we know what Lindy got us? I’m going off of what actually happened and it’s my opinion in the end we didn’t get enough for Lindy, you have an opposing opinion which is fine but you haven’t proven anything or anyone wrong? They changed pieces around a bunch of times they said. Of course they wanted Lindy, I’ve said the whole time they wanted Lindy because of him being Peters favorite and there was an obvious influence? We’ve been talking about this for over a year man.

“You’re wrong!!!” Lol. I thought you were bringing some new evidence to light or something.

 

[Svechhammer]

 

[MinJaBen]

This trade happened because they revisited it the second day of the draft, no? When we didn’t get anything done we went back to them and finished the deal. I don’t get your point I guess. If they wanted Lindy and Hamilton/Hanifin weren’t even in the deal yet then how do we know what Lindy got us?

I'm not sure what is so hard to understand in this for you. Lindy got us the whole trade because that is the player the Flames wanted. He is the keystone piece to the trade for the Flames. It is just misleading on your part to say we didn't get much for him when without him, there would have been no trade initiated in the first place.

 

[DougieSmash]

Elias Lindholm: 99 games for Flames, including playoffs. 35 goals total.
Hamilton: 108 games for Hurricanes, including playoffs. 27 goals total.

It's time to move on, wow. We have TT and Svech on the right side. Who the f*** cares about Lindholm?

 

[Svechhammer]

It's time to move on, wow. We have TT and Svech on the right side. Who the **** cares about Lindholm?

But Smash...

 

[My Special Purpose]

Based on value, I've always seen this trade as Hamilton-for-Lindholm, Ferland-for-Hanifin, and we get a little extra because our guys were younger.

 

[MrazeksVengeance]

DEFENSMEN ARE RIDICULOUSLY HARD TO EVALUATE SIMPLY BECAUSE THEY BLOOM LATER.

 

[Svechhammer]

DEFENSMEN ARE RIDICULOUSLY HARD TO EVALUATE SIMPLY BECAUSE THEY BLOOM LATER.

like herpes

wait

 

[bleedgreen]

I'm not sure what is so hard to understand in this for you. Lindy got us the whole trade because that is the player the Flames wanted. He is the keystone piece to the trade for the Flames. It is just misleading on your part to say we didn't get much for him when without him, there would have been no trade initiated in the first place.

They were running Dougie out of town on a rail. They had to trade Ferland because they were losing him for nothing and they knew couldn’t sign Fox. THIS trade as it went down needed Lindholm and he was a guy they focused on. You’ve said yourself Hanifin and Hamilton were added later. You’re speaking in absolutes that don’t really fit the situation.

They were talking about a lot of players, of course they would’ve initiated trade talks with or without Lindholm....but we were shopping Lindholm and Hanifin so it’s kind of moot....

I think we could’ve gotten Hamilton with Hanifin but it’s never mattered because they were trying to get rid of both.

 

[MrazeksVengeance]

like herpes

wait

I DON’T JUDGE.

 

[geehaad]

In the eight drafts between 2009 and 2016, 26 defensemen were taken in the top 10. By my count, 13 were worth their draft position, and even a couple of them are shaky with the forwards who went in the second 10

Not sure why we're starting in 2009, but it's an incomplete evaluation until the same is done for the forwards. I can't do it for you, because your assessment of 13 of 26 being worthy of their draft position is entirely subjective, therefore whatever criteria you used (however loose those are) has to be applied equally to the forwards.

 

[robbieberns]

To quickly sidestep from the draft picks and Calgary trade talk, Carolina seems to have lucked into another favorable month of opponents for November. There’s a really good opportunity to pull ahead of everyone else in the division/conference that have already fallen behind.

 

[A Star is Burns]

To quickly sidestep from the draft picks and Calgary trade talk, Carolina seems to have lucked into another favorable month of opponents for November. There’s a really good opportunity to pull ahead of everyone else in the division/conference that have already fallen behind.

But why would you want to move on from such riveting conversation that has in no way been beaten into the ground (realizing I've been sucked in before, almost was this time, and probably will be again at some point)?

 

[HisIceness]

I will say this and bow out.

I don't miss Lindholm. It was really frustrating watching him struggle to produce offense and develop at a time when this franchise needed both in the worst way, all while the guy drafted ahead of him was doing both. We got a good year out of Ferland and used the money not resigning him to get Dzingel.

And at this point im happy with Dougie over Noah. I don't think Hanifin truly wanted to be here and was upset that Boston never traded up to draft him, he played like it against them. His comment leaving here confirmed that. Dougie meanwhile has embraced being here and is a fan favorite.

 

[bleedgreen]

I’m fine with Hanifin being gone especially with Dougie. Obvious win. I miss Lindy and feel we shortchanged ourselves with parts of the trade that would’ve helped but I mostly miss him because we’re short a righty who can play on the pp. Williams is a band aid there even if he comes back.

I also have a soft spot for those we draft which plays into all this for me. I get over it if it makes sense.

 

[My Special Purpose]

They were running Dougie out of town on a rail.

You say this like it's the equivalent of "they were giving Hamilton away." It's not. Even if Hamilton didn't "fit" in the Calgary locker room, he was still a super-valuable defenseman. Somehow, despite being hated everywhere he went, Hamilton managed double-digit goals and 40-plus points for four straight seasons, and was just entering the prime of his career.

We weren't getting Hamilton in a Hanifin trade. Hanifin was *never* a younger version of Hamilton. If anything, he was trending toward overrated. Peters saw something in him, but so far, he's been as wrong about Hanifin as he was right about Lindholm. This trade was *always* Hamilton-for-Lindholm with other particulars to even out any perceived differences.

Have you even been following Hanifin's career? For his $5 million, he's got two goals, zero assists and is a minus-6 in 13 games. Here's the shot rate chart between Hanifin (who is evidently the second coming of Bobby Orr) and Haydn Fleury (who's about out of chances to stay in the league).

How's this for a take: Hanifin is a bust, and we're lucky to get out from under him.