OT: Chess

[Spektre]

Regarding Fischer...

Of all the GREAT players, Fischer had the LEAST support - Casablanca may be the exception and Paul Morphy if you want to go way back. The Russians had an entire system and current players have computers. Fischer had himself in his little NY apartment. For that, he will always deserve to be considered one of the all time greats.

**

As for Nepo vs Carlsen...

Nepo scored some EARLY(!) victories, he's playing really well, and he does have the man-bun, but don't expect a change of world champion in 2021. The tournament format favours Carlsen against everyone but Nakamura.

Of course, if Carlsen played Nakamura for the world championship, it would never get to the tie breaker. That's why Magnus will be on top for the considerable future.

Nakamura is great at what he’s great at, speed chess. He’s not close to being good enough for a classical world championship.

(and he doesn’t even care) haha sorry I couldn’t resist

 

[ORRFForever]

Yeah, it's easy to criticize it from the outside, but he clearly went into the Caruana match with the idea that if they were tied after the classical portion, he had a huge advantage.

And I don't blame him. It's all about winning.

I bet he wouldn't criticize the Karpov-Kasparov match now that he's seen the sort of gamesmanship it can take to win a match against a dangerous opponent of near-equal strength.

The level of drop-off level in Fabi's game at higher speed is shocking. Top players don't usually drop off THAT much.

Like you said, based on that, Magnus always knew he had a path to victory.

 

[ORRFForever]

Nakamura is great at what he’s great at, speed chess. He’s not close to being good enough for a classical world championship.

(and he doesn’t even care) haha sorry I couldn’t resist

I agree. As I said, "...if Carlsen played Nakamura for the world championship, it would never get to the tie breaker."

It's a shame. Nakamura seems like a nice/interesting fellow and there is certainly nothing wrong with being the world best blitz player.

 

[Harbour Dog]

The level of drop-off level in Fabi's game at higher speed is shocking. Top players don't usually drop off THAT much.

Like you said, based on that, Magnus always knew he had a path to victory.

Yeah, I think the reason Fabi has such a dropoff is because he leans so heavy on his calculation at the board. Magnus commented during the candidates that while most guys are picking out a few moves and calculating them, Fabi is doing like every viable move.

He works harder than any of the other top players at the board, which probably compensates a little for having a slightly lower intuition.

When the time controls get sped up, he loses that advantage and gets outclassed by guys who wouldn't stand a chance in a classical match against him. I have a lot of respect for how hard he works to set himself apart from the pack. He's like an elite grinder of a hockey player. Sidney Crosby compared to Magnus' McDavid.

 

[ORRFForever]

Yeah, I think the reason Fabi has such a dropoff is because he leans so heavy on his calculation at the board. Magnus commented during the candidates that while most guys are picking out a few moves and calculating them, Fabi is doing like every viable move.

He works harder than any of the other top players at the board, which probably compensates a little for having a slightly lower intuition.

When the time controls get sped up, he loses that advantage and gets outclassed by guys who wouldn't stand a chance in a classical match against him. I have a lot of respect for how hard he works to set himself apart from the pack. He's like an elite grinder of a hockey player. Sidney Crosby compared to Magnus' McDavid.

That is well said and spot on.

 

[Ben Grimm]

Nakamura - Highest rating achieved in database: 2814, #2 in the world

"60 years ago: Botvinnik wins return match against Tal | ChessBase

60 years ago today, on 12 May 1961, the return World Championship match between Mihail Tal and Mikhail Botvinnik, which had started in Moscow on 15 March, came to an end. Tal had won the first match in 1960 with 12.5-8.5, but in the return match Botvinnik regained the world championship title and defeated Tal 13-8 (+10, -5, =6). But despite the clear result Botvinnik's victory still failed to convince." @Harbour Dog

 

[ORRFForever]

Nakamura - Highest rating achieved in database: 2814, #2 in the world

"60 years ago: Botvinnik wins return match against Tal | ChessBase

60 years ago today, on 12 May 1961, the return World Championship match between Mihail Tal and Mikhail Botvinnik, which had started in Moscow on 15 March, came to an end. Tal had won the first match in 1960 with 12.5-8.5, but in the return match Botvinnik regained the world championship title and defeated Tal 13-8 (+10, -5, =6). But despite the clear result Botvinnik's victory still failed to convince." @Harbour Dog

The stare.

 

[Ben Grimm]

"Throwback Thursday: Ivanchuk wins the 2016 World Rapid Championship​

5/14/2021 – Garry Kasparov has described him as a world-champion level grandmaster, an assessment that is shared by much of the chess world. A true genius, Vasyl Ivanchuk has won a number of super-tournaments and has been ranked number 2 in the FIDE rankings three times. The Ukrainian also won the World Rapid Championship in 2016, and celebrated in style."

Korchnoi may be the best non-Champion ever, but Ivanchuk was very good also. Highest rating achieved in database: 2787. @Harbour Dog

 

[Brief Candle]

^ was super cool to watch. It's really changing how chess is played. I'd argue that if you were to take anyone in the top 10 today and send them back 60 years, they'd probably annihilate just about anyone back then.

 

[Harbour Dog]

^ was super cool to watch. It's really changing how chess is played. I'd argue that if you were to take anyone in the top 10 today and send them back 60 years, they'd probably annihilate just about anyone back then.

Probably the case, but conversely, if Capablanca or Fischer were given access to today's resources, they would be Carlsen-like beasts.

It's been a while, but I remember reading an article that compared the accuracy of World Champions throughout history to that of a computer. Both Capablanca and Fischer were several decades ahead of their peers. Capablanca is the most mind-boggling to me, and it's no wonder that Carlsen considers him to be the greatest genius to ever play.

 

[Harbour Dog]

www.chess.com/amp/article/who-was-the-best-world-chess-champion-in-history

Found it. Capablanca's numbers are astounding.

They are probably helped a little by his straight forward play, but still staggering that he could be so far ahead of World Champions from 50 years in the future.

 

[Brief Candle]

Probably the case, but conversely, if Capablanca or Fischer were given access to today's resources, they would be Carlsen-like beasts.

It's been a while, but I remember reading an article that compared the accuracy of World Champions throughout history to that of a computer. Both Capablanca and Fischer were several decades ahead of their peers. Capablanca is the most mind-boggling to me, and it's no wonder that Carlsen considers him to be the greatest genius to ever play.

Oh I agree to that for sure. Great chess players will always be great chess players. What these AI's do that's interesting could be to learn the style of a particular player. While it would never be 100%, it'd be cool to see Carlsen vs a Capablanca or Fischer AI.

 

[Ben Grimm]

"Ask me anything": Garry Kasparov at Reddit | ChessBase​

"Ask me anything" (AMA) is a "Question & Answer" format on the Reddit platform in which readers are invitid to ask a famous guest, well, anything. On 19 May, the Reddit readers asked Garry Kasparov about chess, Magnus Carlsen, Deep Blue, Artificial Intelligence, and much more. Kasparov's answer were open, frank, clear, and are a pleasure to read."

You may enjoy checking out this famous game. Deep Blue (Computer) vs Garry Kasparov (1996) Sacre Blue! (chessgames.com) @Harbour Dog

 

[Harbour Dog]

"Ask me anything": Garry Kasparov at Reddit | ChessBase​

"Ask me anything" (AMA) is a "Question & Answer" format on the Reddit platform in which readers are invitid to ask a famous guest, well, anything. On 19 May, the Reddit readers asked Garry Kasparov about chess, Magnus Carlsen, Deep Blue, Artificial Intelligence, and much more. Kasparov's answer were open, frank, clear, and are a pleasure to read."

You may enjoy checking out this famous game. Deep Blue (Computer) vs Garry Kasparov (1996) Sacre Blue! (chessgames.com) @Harbour Dog

I read the chess.com recap of this shortly after it happened. There was a bunch of interesting stuff in there; Kasparov is nothing if not honest and to the point with whatever questions he faces. Perhaps when I have time, I'll go back and look at the complete AMA.

 

[Ben Grimm]

​

Throwback Thursday: Ponomariov, knockout expert | ChessBase

"With a peak rating of 2764, Ruslan Ponomariov can pride himself on a long list of professional achievements, including individual triumphs in Dortmund, Pamplona and San Sebastián, as well as gold medals with the Ukrainian team at two Chess Olympiads. However, he is perhaps best known for his excellent results in knockout events, including his victory at the 2002 FIDE World Chess Championship, when, as an 18-year-old, he defeated compatriot Vasyl Ivanchuk in the final of a gruelling event." @Harbour Dog

​

 

[ORRFForever]

I read the chess.com recap of this shortly after it happened. There was a bunch of interesting stuff in there; Kasparov is nothing if not honest and to the point with whatever questions he faces. Perhaps when I have time, I'll go back and look at the complete AMA.

Does he still believe IBM cheated?

 

[ORRFForever]

^ was super cool to watch. It's really changing how chess is played. I'd argue that if you were to take anyone in the top 10 today and send them back 60 years, they'd probably annihilate just about anyone back then.

I own...

Game Changer: AlphaZero's Groundbreaking Chess Strategies and the Promise of AI by Matthew Sadler (goodreads.com)

I never found the time to work thru all of the games inside but it certainly is interesting.

 

[ORRFForever]

When Google/Alphabet built Alpha Zero, the rating skyrocketed until it peaked. That peak was enough to crush the Stockfish version available to the public.

Humans should take some pride in that because of Alpha Zero's human-esk playing style.

Sadly, Stockfish has bettered LeelaZero in recent years.

Google/Alphabet has said the next version will be stronger that AlphaZero, LeelaZero and Stockfish.

Will it? I have my doubts.

 

[Chimpradamus]

When Google/Alphabet built Alpha Zero, the rating skyrocketed until it peaked. That peak was enough to crush the Stockfish version available to the public.

Humans should take some pride in that because of Alpha Zero's human-esk playing style.

Sadly, Stockfish has bettered LeelaZero in recent years.

Google/Alphabet has said the next version will be stronger that AlphaZero, LeelaZero and Stockfish.

Will it? I have my doubts.

On that subject I can recommend the AlphaGo documentary about a neural network AI competing against the best Go player in the world. While Go isn't chess, it's a very complicated game requiring alot of calculation ending up in a "feeling from your gut". I've watched it and really liked it. Good chess players usually become good Go players and vice versa, although Go has a stronger positional aspect than chess.

 

[Harbour Dog]

On that subject I can recommend the AlphaGo documentary about a neural network AI competing against the best Go player in the world. While Go isn't chess, it's a very complicated game requiring alot of calculation ending up in a "feeling from your gut". I've watched it and really liked it. Good chess players usually become good Go players and vice versa, although Go has a stronger positional aspect than chess.

I enjoyed this documentary too, but I found it very bittersweet. Even without knowing much about Go, and having never seen any of the top players before watching it, it felt kind of like the world champion was playing for all of us.

 

[Chimpradamus]

I enjoyed this documentary too, but I found it very bittersweet. Even without knowing much about Go, and having never seen any of the top players before watching it, it felt kind of like the world champion was playing for all of us.

Yeah, he kind of took it too hard, but I guess it's a cultural thing and their starting ignorance of how strong computers are becoming in forming an intelligence. Everyone built up a confidence the AI would be crushed. Imagine a documentary about Carlsen playing against an AI network. He would laugh and say he expects to not even get a tie before the games. And he would probably be correct.

That an AI is sharper and more powerful than a human mind in a closed and set enviroment is a no brainer.

 

[Harbour Dog]

Does he still believe IBM cheated?

I don't remember seeing that question asked. I doubt chess.com would have picked that one to show though, so it very well could have.

 

[ORRFForever]

On that subject I can recommend the AlphaGo documentary about a neural network AI competing against the best Go player in the world. While Go isn't chess, it's a very complicated game requiring alot of calculation ending up in a "feeling from your gut". I've watched it and really liked it. Good chess players usually become good Go players and vice versa, although Go has a stronger positional aspect than chess.

I saw it. Loved it.

 

[ORRFForever]

I don't remember seeing that question asked. I doubt chess.com would have picked that one to show though, so it very well could have.

It's been proven that IBM did not cheat but I'm not sure Kasparov believes it.

 

[Ben Grimm]

​

"FTX Crypto Cup - Live!

5/23/2021 – The FTX Crypto Cup is taking place on May 23-31 and offers a record $320,000 prize pot for an online event — $100,000 of that is a bonus paid in crypto by new sponsor FTX. World champion Magnus Carlsen takes centre stage as the current leader of the Meltwater Champions Chess Tour, but faces stiff competition in a field of 16 star names. Follow the games live with commentary starting at 17.00 CEST."

Current standings

Rk.	Name	Rtg.	Nt.	Pts.	n	1	2	3	4	5	6	7	8	9	10	11	12	13	14	15	16	TB	Perf.
1	GM	Giri,A	2731		4.0	5						1				½	½			1	1	1.00	2980
2	GM	Nakamura,H	2829		3.5	5		½	½		½				1				1			2.50	2929
3	GM	Vachier-Lagrave,M	2860		3.5	5		½				½	1				½			1		2.00	2969
4	GM	So,W	2741		3.5	5		½		½			½				1			1		1.50	2942
5	GM	Firouzja,A	2703		3.0	5				½	½			½	½				1			2.00	2834
6	GM	Radjabov,T	2758		3.0	5		½			½			½		½		1				1.50	2837
7	GM	Ding,L	2836		3.0	5	0		½							½				1	1	0.50	2809
8	GM	Carlsen,M	2881		2.5	5			0	½					½				1		½	1.00	2735
9	GM	Caruana,F	2773		2.5	5					½	½				½		1	0			1.00	2748
10	GM	Nepomniachtchi,I	2778		2.5	5		0			½			½			1	½				1.00	2785
11	GM	Aronian,L	2778		2.0	5	½					½	½		½			0				2.00	2696
12	GM	Dubov,D	2770		2.0	5	½		½	0						0					1	1.00	2657
13	GM	Svidler,P	2742		2.0	5						0			0	½	1		½			0.50	2698
14	GM	Mamedyarov,S	2761		1.5	5		0			0			0	1				½			1.00	2637
15	GM	Grischuk,A	2784

[TBODY] [/TBODY]
[TBODY] [/TBODY]

I only posted the current standings to show how incredibly strong the field is. @Harbour Dog