Euro: Chelsea for sale

[bluesfan94]

Which part of my post is confusing you? I don't understand how you can continue to miss the point so thoroughly, so please tell me how I can help clarify the part that you're struggling to understand.

Because based on the things you are claiming I am trying to say, I have failed profoundly to make my point clear enough for you to keep up.

Again, Putin is a dictator in his country. He chose to work with who he is working with in Chechnya. He is aware of the concentration camps and is doing absolutely nothing to stop them. Saying that someone else would have to deal with it too doesn't mean that Putin isn't doing it.

Evilo's whole point is that Navalny would be bad because there would then be concentration camps in Russia. There already are.

You saying oh yeah but you can't really blame Putin is laughable. I don't know if it's Ostalgie or what, but you've really gone out of your way to wave away bad things about Russia over the past week.

 

[cgf]

Again, Putin is a dictator in his country. He chose to work with who he is working with in Chechnya. He is aware of the concentration camps and is doing absolutely nothing to stop them. Saying that someone else would have to deal with it too doesn't mean that Putin isn't doing it.

Evilo's whole point is that Navalny would be bad because there would then be concentration camps in Russia. There already are.

You saying oh yeah but you can't really blame Putin is laughable. I don't know if it's Ostalgie or what, but you've really gone out of your way to wave away bad things about Russia over the past week.

I see where you're getting lost now. You're under the impression that any regime in Moscow could replace Kadyrov with someone who would shed less blood. That is wholly inaccurate. What is happening in the northern caucauses would be happening under Putin, Navalny, or whomever the oligarchs eventually replace Putin with.

I never suggested that any of them would not have that blood on their hands if in power so despite you trying to repeat it into existence, I never said Putin can't be blamed...literally said the opposite. You just jumped to that conclusion in your ignorance. I was merely pointing out that the blood would still be spilling, so it's a really dumb reason to argue that one monster should be replaced with another monster.

 

[bluesfan94]

I see where you're getting lost now. You're under the impression that any regime in Moscow could replace Kadyrov with someone who would shed less blood. That is wholly inaccurate. What is happening in the northern caucauses would be happening under Putin, Navalny, or whomever the oligarchs eventually replace Putin with.

I never suggested that any of them would not have that blood on their hands if in power, I was just pointing out that the blood would still be spilling, so it's a really dumb reason to want to see one monster replaced with another monster that you know even less about.

I'm sorry, but Putin is the one who got in bed with the Kadryovs in the first place. He continues to prop up Kadryov. Maybe another dictator would not be able to remove him either, but that doesn't mean you ignore that Putin install the Kadryovs and supports them and ignores anything wrong they do. (I also disagree that the oligarchs have power over Putin rather than Putin having power over the oligarchs; Putin made these oligarchs, not the other way around).

For what it's worth, Jussi doesn't want Putin replaced with Navalny because he thinks it would solve Chechnya. It's because he thinks Putin is more likely to invade his country. And while some here think that your country being invaded isn't that big of a deal, I can understand why someone might feel strongly about that.

 

[maclean]

Anyone think this is a bad move for Chelsea Football Club? Don't get me wrong that I think Roman is an awful bloke, but you also cannot deny that he had a vision of being a winner and has transformed that club into an aura team with multiple CL titles under their belt. I have a hard time thinking that the next owner will be as ruthless as he was when it came to winning. He had all the elements to show that not winning was a failure in his eyes. Just look at Man United, one of the wealthiest clubs in the world yet the owners do not have the vision or attributes to make a winning culture that Roman had.

For what it's worth I think Ambramovich is doing this because he actually cares for the club and is aware enough to realise that fans could quite easily just start abandoning the team with him in charge.

 

[Havre]

It is interesting thinking back to who Putin was in the first years in charge. I would argue quite a different character to who he has become. I wouldn't place much money on someone like Navalny not changing quite radically as well if he suddenly was in charge. I definitely think Evilo has a point - and to me it seems like Navalny is some sort of small "hero" in the west because he right now isn't Putin. Navalny is a very very strange guy (from what I know) to support.

As for Russia turning "west" or in a more democratic direction I don't know. Russia had Yeltsin. China had Deng Xiaoping and to some extent Hu Jintao. All leaders that would be more "western" (whatever that means) compared to their current leadership.

I'm no fan of Putin, but I think Russia could end up with someone far worse as well. If Navalny would be worse I couldn't say. In the beginning my guess is not, but he I would argue would be even more unpredictable than Putin.

 

[S E P H]

For what it's worth I think Ambramovich is doing this because he actually cares for the club and is aware enough to realise that fans could quite easily just start abandoning the team with him in charge.

That would be pretty radical for a fan base to do that no? Just look at Newcastle, their owners are high ups in a state that has zealot cops who stone blokes if they're gay, are a non-Muslim religion, or if you're a woman who did something bad. A good portion of Toons actually supported the decision for them to buy the club from Ashley. I think Roman would have a certain amount of forgiveness from the fans for what he's achieved with that club. I think Roman is selling it more due to the "fears" of locked or frozen assets IMO.

 

[Chimaera]

For what it's worth I think Ambramovich is doing this because he actually cares for the club and is aware enough to realise that fans could quite easily just start abandoning the team with him in charge.

The cynic says he is worried they will take the club from him and force him to sell. This way he can clear an asset and get what he can before he's over a barrel.

 

[TheMoreYouKnow]

It is interesting thinking back to who Putin was in the first years in charge. I would argue quite a different character to who he has become. I wouldn't place much money on someone like Navalny not changing quite radically as well if he suddenly was in charge. I definitely think Evilo has a point - and to me it seems like Navalny is some sort of small "hero" in the west because he right now isn't Putin. Navalny is a very very strange guy (from what I know) to support.

As for Russia turning "west" or in a more democratic direction I don't know. Russia had Yeltsin. China had Deng Xiaoping and to some extent Hu Jintao. All leaders that would be more "western" (whatever that means) compared to their current leadership.

I'm no fan of Putin, but I think Russia could end up with someone far worse as well. If Navalny would be worse I couldn't say. In the beginning my guess is not, but he I would argue would be even more unpredictable than Putin.

And Yeltsin's rule was IIRC the time the oligarchs really came into power in Russia, and of course the chaos of those days was one reason why people weren't too upset about a Putin coming into office. I think what we need to remember is that nothing happens in a vacuum, Putin didn't just wake up one morning to decide he wants to mess with Ukraine or the West. It's part of a bigger picture.

 

[Havre]

And Yeltsin's rule was IIRC the time the oligarchs really came into power in Russia, and of course the chaos of those days was one reason why people weren't too upset about a Putin coming into office. I think what we need to remember is that nothing happens in a vacuum, Putin didn't just wake up one morning to decide he wants to mess with Ukraine or the West. It's part of a bigger picture.

Sure. But I think history will be quite kind with Yeltsin. He had an impossible task. Strong pressure to go old school communist - which Yeltsin fended off.

And as I argued earlier the Putin that took over after him wasn’t this Putin. So it wasn’t like the move was as big then going from Yeltsin to Putin as it seems now.

 

[TheMoreYouKnow]

Sure. But I think history will be quite kind with Yeltsin. He had an impossible task. Strong pressure to go old school communist - which Yeltsin fended off.

And as I argued earlier the Putin that took over after him wasn’t this Putin. So it wasn’t like the move was as big then going from Yeltsin to Putin as it seems now.

Well we were talking about Chechnya here and that situation spiraled out of control under Yeltsin. The loss in Chechnya IMO cannot be overstated in importance. A loss in a war to rebels especially if they're seen as backwards will always hurt national morale deeply (see U.S. and Vietnam) and have ramifications. I think the need to 'sort out' Chechnya is one of the factors that got Putin into the position in the 1st place.

Now the international community more or less let Putin do his thing in Chechnya and the current status there - with a long strongman leader left to run things on his own as long as he's loyal to Moscow - is one that the international community pretty much has accepted and hasn't had too much of a problem with.

 

[Havre]

Well we were talking about Chechnya here and that situation spiraled out of control under Yeltsin. The loss in Chechnya IMO cannot be overstated in importance. A loss in a war to rebels especially if they're seen as backwards will always hurt national morale deeply (see U.S. and Vietnam) and have ramifications. I think the need to 'sort out' Chechnya is one of the factors that got Putin into the position in the 1st place.

Now the international community more or less let Putin do his thing in Chechnya and the current status there - with a long strongman leader left to run things on his own as long as he's loyal to Moscow - is one that the international community pretty much has accepted and hasn't had too much of a problem with.

I’m not going to pretend I remember everything Putin said 20 years ago, but I have watched again quite a few clips from speeches he made going up to the Bucharest summit in 2008. I have also read several analysis of him both recently and before regarding him and his development. To me it is pretty clear he wasn’t the same then as now - even if the second Chechen war probably did give him some confidence.

Not suggesting he was some sort of saint at any point, but like Xi he was/is getting slowly more totalitarian it seems. Which is odd as he had a lot of good will in Russia in the 00s. Russia was definitely a better place for most in the 00s than the 90s.

 

[TheMoreYouKnow]

I’m not going to pretend I remember everything Putin said 20 years ago, but I have watched again quite a few clips from speeches he made going up to the Bucharest summit in 2008. I have also read several analysis of him both recently and before regarding him and his development. To me it is pretty clear he wasn’t the same then as now - even if the second Chechen war probably did give him some confidence.

Not suggesting he was some sort of saint at any point, but like Xi he was/is getting slowly more totalitarian it seems. Which is odd as he had a lot of good will in Russia in the 00s. Russia was definitely a better place for most in the 00s than the 90s.

Well you mention Bucharest, so it's possible his outlook changed after the summit because of what happened there.

 

[Spring in Fialta]

Hell yeah Putin has been terrible for gays, etc...
But Putin has absolutely shown nothing but political goals.
He doesn't want gays because he's buying a good portion of his voters and especially religious backings.

Maybe it's because I'm French but NOTHING afraid me more than concentration camps.
I'd rather see countries invaded rather than that.
So no I don't see it at all.
Let's not forget Jussi tends to be extremely self centered.
He wanted away goals gone because United.

So it's not that surprising that nothing for him is more dreadful than his country being invaded.

Jussi also has a bad history regarding his views on POC so I wouldn't be surprised if he flat out doesn't give too much of a shit either way how a politician feels about them.

 

[gary69]

Jussi also has a bad history regarding his views on POC so I wouldn't be surprised if he flat out doesn't give too much of a shit either way how a politician feels about them.

I rarely agree with Jussi about anything football related, but Evilo's and your takes regarding Putin and Finland are just awful and inhuman. Like his idol Stalin, Putin's plans for Finns go way beyond of concentration camps, the aim is simply de facto genocide and annihilation with tactical nuclear weapons if necessary. While Putin's Russia has at least some feelings regarding Slavic Ukraine, there are no such restrictions about Finns. Like Baltic and other small nations, Putin would like nothing more than wipe out those people from the face of earth. Russian leaders never have had any problems simply killing millions of people because of nationality.

Probably around dozen nationalities would seek forming an independent country form current Russia if they had a chance.

 

[Spring in Fialta]

I rarely agree with Jussi about anything football related, but Evilo's and your takes regarding Putin and Finland are just awful and inhuman. Like his idol Stalin, Putin's plans for Finns go way beyond of concentration camps, the aim is simply de facto genocide and annihilation with tactical nuclear weapons if necessary. While Putin's Russia has at least some feelings regarding Slavic Ukraine, there are no such restrictions about Finns. Like Baltic and other small nations, Putin would like nothing more than wipe out those people from the face of earth. They never have had simply killing millions of people because of nationality.

Probably around dozen nationalities would seek forming an independent country form current Russia if they had a chance.

What in the world is my take regarding Putin and Finland? What are you on about? I think Putin is a POS and not once have I discusssed Finland or Navalny.

 

[gary69]

What in the world is my take regarding Putin and Finland? What are you on about? I think Putin is a POS and not once have I discusssed Finland or Navalny.

Okay, sorry if you don't disagree with Jussi on this matter, but why comment then? Maybe it's because I have no idea what POC is.

 

[Spring in Fialta]

Okay, sorry if you don't disagree with Jussi on this matter, but why comment then? Maybe it's because I have no idea what POC is.

Person of color.

 

[gary69]

Okay, but it's pretty obvious racism has very little to do with Putin's Russia's actions here.

 

[maclean]

Okay, but it's pretty obvious racism has very little to do with Putin's Russia's actions here.

They said POS, which is short for piece of shit

 

[Paulie Gualtieri]

Roman has given permission for the club to be sold. Should take a few weeks.

 

[bleedblue1223]

Were a bunch of posts lost after the update? I know it was asked, but the reasons it's important that Roman is giving permission to sell the club is because he could have "fought" the sanctions or refused since the club wasn't actually seized. I think it's expected that the bid deadline is this Friday with a sale completing in 4-6 weeks.

 

[Chimaera]

A lot of posts were trimmed for political reasons, but yes, some was lost in the migration of the server.

 

[hatterson]

Were a bunch of posts lost after the update? I know it was asked, but the reasons it's important that Roman is giving permission to sell the club is because he could have "fought" the sanctions or refused since the club wasn't actually seized. I think it's expected that the bid deadline is this Friday with a sale completing in 4-6 weeks.

Yes, I think a couple days of stuff was lost.

 

[cgf]

A lot of posts were trimmed for political reasons, but yes, some was lost in the migration of the server.

I assumed it was just the migration of the server. If my posts were trimmed for political reasons while some of these others were left, that would be disappointing...though ultimately not too surprising...

 

[BKIslandersFan]