Proposal: CGY-CAR

[hurdemz]

He's a year removed from posting career highs goals, assists, and points...

And he hasn't broke 30 points any other year. This year being 27 points. I know it's not a tell all, but he's not what he was expected to be

 

[Nikishin Go Boom]

Huh? Are you sure you know who Mangiapane is? He's a positive possession player with negative zone starts his entire career. Over the last 5 seasons there's only 2 other wingers in the league who have done that. Not sure how anyone who has seen him play even a little bit would be that far off.

Mangiapane has had

56 cf
54 cf
54 cf
59 cf
61 cf
52cf

That's his entire career. He's played the toughest line for the other team every night for the past 5 seasons and starts mostly (54%) in the Dzone. He has had 2 goals outside homeplate last year. He's not perimeter by any definition a rational human could have.

You seen Necas’ Cf? That doesn’t mean they are good defensive guys.

Hockey reference says he has 2 negative starting positions in the last 5.

His last 5 seasons: 46, 51.2, 56.5, 58.8, and 44.4% O zone starts.

NSTs o zone start and o zone FO% agree with that.

Do you know who Mangiapane is?

 

[Dr Quincy]

Where a player scores doesn’t mean he isn’t a perimeter player and its wrong that he scores just from 6 inches out. Mangiapane has 1 good season on defense, 3 seasons ago.

It absolutely does mean that. When people talk about perimeter players, especially wings, it's guys who try to score from the half wall and at distance and not scoring garbage goals up close.

It has a lot less to do with defense.

That doesn't mean this a good deal, but your definintely wrong hear about the definition.

 

[Nikishin Go Boom]

It absolutely does mean that. When people talk about perimeter players, especially wings, it's guys who try to score from the half wall and at distance and not scoring garbage goals up close.

It has a lot less to do with defense.

That doesn't mean this a good deal, but your definintely wrong hear about the definition.

That isn’t necessarily true. Perimeter guys score near the net on rush plays all the time. That doesn’t mean they aren’t perimeter guys. That is too simple of a definition of a guy who isn’t a perimeter guy to be true.

 

[Double Dion]

You seen Necas’ Cf? That doesn’t mean they are good defensive guys.

Hockey reference says he has 2 negative starting positions in the last 5.

His last 5 seasons: 46, 51.2, 56.5, 58.8, and 44.4% O zone starts.

NSTs o zone start and o zone FO% agree with that.

Do you know who Mangiapane is?

Oof. Necas sees sheltered minutes. Mangiapane plays better competition than any Canes forward including Aho. It's pretty obvious you don't follow hockey closely or understand numbers based on your posts. Probably better off posting in the forums about guys who turn left.

 

[bleedgreen]

Links?

I don’t know episode but it was Freidmans 32 thoughts podcast.

 

[To Be Determined]

Oof. Necas sees sheltered minutes. Mangiapane plays better competition than any Canes forward including Aho. It's pretty obvious you don't follow hockey closely or understand numbers based on your posts. Probably better off posting in the forums about guys who turn left.

Why use Aho there? Staal get the toughest competition for the canes.

 

[Nikishin Go Boom]

Oof. Necas sees sheltered minutes. Mangiapane plays better competition than any Canes forward including Aho. It's pretty obvious you don't follow hockey closely or understand numbers based on your posts. Probably better off posting in the forums about guys who turn left.

Lol. A guy plays a ton of O starts against tough competition like Aho does. Aho has 2 seasons with harder competition played against and within a tenth of a percentage for the 3rd highest season in TOI%. That doesn’t change anything like his bad defensive metrics. But I do love the classic “you don’t watch hockey.” It is very tired excuse used when you can’t accept the numbers.

 

[Double Dion]

Lol. A guy plays a ton of O starts against tough competition like Aho does. Aho has 2 seasons with harder competition played against and within a tenth of a percentage for the 3rd highest season in TOI%. That doesn’t change anything like his bad defensive metrics. But I do love the classic “you don’t watch hockey.” It is very tired excuse used when you can’t accept the numbers.

Do you struggle to understand stats? My argument wasnt that you hadnt seen him. I knew that as soon as you called him a perimeter player. I'm just genuinely puzzled how someone could look at the stats and see a guy who has been a top 10 defensive winger in 4 of his 6 NHL seasons and then say he struggles defensively. Mangiapane has much better numbers than Aho defensively. It's not close in any regard really and I'd consider Aho a good defensive player.

 

[Nikishin Go Boom]

Do you struggle to understand stats? My argument wasnt that you hadnt seen him. I knew that as soon as you called him a perimeter player. I'm just genuinely puzzled how someone could look at the stats and see a guy who has been a top 10 defensive winger in 4 of his 6 NHL seasons and then say he struggles defensively. Mangiapane has much better numbers than Aho defensively. It's not close in any regard really and I'd consider Aho a good defensive player.

So far you have been wrong on all accounts. Good luck to you though.

 

[Double Dion]

So far you have been wrong on all accounts. Good luck to you though.

As you provide no evidence and haven't seen the player. Perimeter player who can't play defense....pfft. Are you sure you aren't confusing Mangiapane with Kuzmenko? If you wanted to denigrate Mangiapane you might try his shot. There are 14 year old kids who shoot harder. It's just so obvious when you take his 2 biggest strengths and call them weaknesses that you don't know a thing about him. It would be like saying Svechnikov can't shoot or Slavin can't defend. It's just absurd.

 

[RasmusAndersson]

That isn’t necessarily true. Perimeter guys score near the net on rush plays all the time. That doesn’t mean they aren’t perimeter guys. That is too simple of a definition of a guy who isn’t a perimeter guy to be true.

You’re arguing semantics for no reason though. Mangiapane isn’t a perimeter player however you wanna define it. He’s not the most skilled guy and his shot is bad, he makes his money by going to the dirty areas and scoring garbage goals while providing very good defense and a quality 200 foot game.

I understand not wanting to make this trade for other reasons (like if you don’t mind keeping Kotka at the expense of 2-3 extra mil to put towards Guentzel/Skjei/Teravainen), but saying you don’t want Mang because you don’t want another perimeter player with meh defensive ability would be like if I said I didn’t want Slavin because I don’t want another offensive dman

 

[Chrispy]

If Carolina wants more cap space to pay Guentzel/Skjei/Teravainen, they can get $4 million in cap space by buying Kotkaniemi out and keep their 1st and Blake.

This deal doesn't make sense for that simple reason. It gives Carolina less cap than a buyout and gives up premium assets on top of it.

 

[RasmusAndersson]

Actually there have been reports that teams have shown interest in Kotkaniemi. Now what they were willing to give was not reported.

As far as the proposal, it's a nope.

Kotkaniemi is a young center and has a desirable frame at that position. $4.82 mil is low end 2nd line money in 2024 and 3rd line money before too long. He doesn't have to produce at a high level to justify his contract. He lived up to it in 22-23.

Interest as his value is neutral or better in full? Not ready to buy that. A swap of undesirable contracts akin to Matheson/Hornqvist is reasonable, however. Calgary's Hornqvists are either non-starters for Carolina (Huberdeau) or not viable for the Flames coming off of strong seasons (Kadri/Coleman). I don't see the fit.

I’m honestly a bit surprised that Canes fans aren’t more desperate for cap space than they appear to be given the impending cap crunch. To me, Tulsky’s biggest obstacle in maintaining a contending team long-term is the cap situation. I understand not wanting to sell young guys and not wanting to give up picks, but at a certain point cap space becomes your biggest obstacle.

I understand why you guys don’t wanna attach a pick to move KK, and why you wouldn’t really care for Mangiapane, but I’m just curious, are you ok taking a small step back next year with a bunch of UFAs leaving? Your core isn’t thaaat young anymore and imo your cup contention window is rn. I’m surprised there isn’t more urgency among Canes fans to mortgage futures for the present, especially with some great prospects in the pipeline.

As someone who really thought the Canes had what it takes to be a cup finalist this year, I’m surprised Canes fans don’t wanna run it back and improve asap

 

[RasmusAndersson]

If Carolina wants more cap space to pay Guentzel/Skjei/Teravainen, they can get $4 million in cap space by buying Kotkaniemi out and keep their 1st and Blake.

This deal doesn't make sense for that simple reason. It gives Carolina less cap than a buyout and gives up premium assets on top of it.

Fair, I just think Kotka’s buyout lasting til like 2036 will be harder for management to swallow than people give it credit for. Sure it’s less than a mil per year, but it’s still quite a bit long term. But I get why Mang doesn’t move the needle, I just thought a quality replacement middle-6 winger might make sense since likely two or three of Martinook/Noesen/Tervainen/Guentzel are gone.

 

[Chan790]

Fair, I just think Kotka’s buyout lasting til like 2036 will be harder for management to swallow than people give it credit for. Sure it’s less than a mil per year, but it’s still quite a bit long term. But I get why Mang doesn’t move the needle, I just thought a quality replacement middle-6 winger might make sense since likely two or three of Martinook/Noesen/Tervainen/Guentzel are gone.

My expectations as a Canes fan are that all 4 are gone.

 

[NotOpie]

Elliot Friedman’s source: “someone who bet [him] a steak dinner.”

He wouldn’t even say that this person was connected to any team, so in other words, he pulled it directly out of his ass for clicks.

You realize Friedman is a journalist, right? His “source” could’ve been a random bellhop at the hotel he was staying at lmao

!st you ask for a link, it's given, and....you can't believe your lyin' eyes. Second, Friedman has a history of good contacts within the Canes organization (not quite like LeBrun). And yes, I realize Friedman is a journalist, which means he loses credibility should he just throw things against the wall (granted all journalists do a bit of this). Lastly, you do realize that his "32 Thoughts" is widely respected.

I’m honestly a bit surprised that Canes fans aren’t more desperate for cap space than they appear to be given the impending cap crunch.

Given that we've had a recent history of excellent cap management, no, I'm not too worried. They have and likely will figure it out. I do expect some of our very talented prospects will see NHL time this season.

I understand why you guys don’t wanna attach a pick to move KK, and why you wouldn’t really care for Mangiapane, but I’m just curious, are you ok taking a small step back next year with a bunch of UFAs leaving?

Given that there's purported interest in KK, I'm not concerned about moving him if necessary. I'm also one of the few who thinks KK ends up remaining a Cane and has a bounce back year.

 

[Chrispy]

Fair, I just think Kotka’s buyout lasting til like 2036 will be harder for management to swallow than people give it credit for. Sure it’s less than a mil per year, but it’s still quite a bit long term. But I get why Mang doesn’t move the needle, I just thought a quality replacement middle-6 winger might make sense since likely two or three of Martinook/Noesen/Tervainen/Guentzel are gone.

It’s $850k a year. Less than 1% of the cap today; it might mean a 22 man roster instead of 23.

Carolina paid $6.25 million in cap space for a first round pick in the Marleau deal. That’s how they value a late first (had to assume Toronto’s 2021 1st would be late.) A late first and a good prospect for $3M in cap space and a rental doesn’t add up.

 

[RasmusAndersson]

My expectations as a Canes fan are that all 4 are gone.

Really? Are you worried about the forward depth going into the season?

It’s $850k a year. Less than 1% of the cap today; it might mean a 22 man roster instead of 23.

Carolina paid $6.25 million in cap space for a first round pick in the Marleau deal. That’s how they value a late first (had to assume Toronto’s 2021 1st would be late.) A late first and a good prospect for $3M in cap space and a rental doesn’t add up.

Ya that’s fair. Carolina paid $6.25 mil for one year of Marleau though, Kotka’s buyout would still be over 10 mil just amortized over like 12 years. But I understand not being concerned about it too much and why this type of deal doesn’t make too much sense, I just thought there was more desperation to move KK and didn’t think those rumors of purported interest in him necessarily meant he’d be moved for positive value

 

[TFHockey]

For what it's worth, Mangiapane has looked really good whenever the Flames have played the Oilers. He passes the eye test at least. Nothing about his game suggested to me he is a perimeter player.

Just my opinion.

 

[bleedgreen]

For what it's worth, Mangiapane has looked really good whenever the Flames have played the Oilers. He passes the eye test at least. Nothing about his game suggested to me he is a perimeter player.

Just my opinion.

I don’t think all Canes fans think he’s a perimeter player at all. I know I don’t.

 

[GIN ANTONIC]

My expectations as a Canes fan are that all 4 are gone.

I would expect at least 1 of Marty or Noesen are back if not both. Other two guys are gone unless TT decides to take a VERY team friendly deal.

I don’t think all Canes fans think he’s a perimeter player at all. I know I don’t.

Agreed. I wouldn't call him perimeter at all. Just a difference of opinions from a certain poster

 

[bleedgreen]

Really? Are you worried about the forward depth going into the season?


Ya that’s fair. Carolina paid $6.25 mil for one year of Marleau though, Kotka’s buyout would still be over 10 mil just amortized over like 12 years. But I understand not being concerned about it too much and why this type of deal doesn’t make too much sense, I just thought there was more desperation to move KK and didn’t think those rumors of purported interest in him necessarily meant he’d be moved for positive value

I’m worried about the Canes depth in general but if they just signed their rfa’s and Fast is healthy they’d have 11 forwards as is. Kk and Necas are two of them though, and at least Necas seems to be on his way out. I agree with the previous poster that I don’t expect any of the ufa’s to come back anywhere on the roster as that’s the expectation the management has out forth based on their actions. When someone is going to get extended it’s like Slavin right now, early and well publicized. If it makes it to the end of the season and you haven’t heard much then they’re probably gone. I could generally see someone like Martinook or Noesen staying because they’d be cheaper but there’s a media push out there that guys like that are going to get paid this off season so they’re not coming back. We don’t overpay ufa’s to stay, we don’t give them long term deals. Aho was young enough to justify it and he’s the man on the team so he got one, honestly I’m a little surprised Slavin is getting one despite his importance to the team.

 

[Chan790]

I would expect at least 1 of Marty or Noesen are back if not both. Other two guys are gone unless TT decides to take a VERY team friendly deal.


Agreed. I wouldn't call him perimeter at all. Just a difference of opinions from a certain poster

From various rumors, it seems like Martinook is the backup plan for a lot of teams if they miss on Dakota Joshua in FA. He'd be crazy to not wait for the offers as it's really probably his one good chance to get  paid and we'd be crazy to match those offers if they come, as we have a lot of areas to address.

Noesen is someone I could see returning, but not certain. He too could be a beneficiary of someone's loose wallet.

 

[Chan790]

Really? Are you worried about the forward depth going into the season?

No. We're good at finding undervalued assets and we have a deep system of guys who have earned a "cup of coffee and a look."

I'm also very comfortable with next year being a "step back and retool" year.