Centres

King85Kong

Playoffs?
Nov 24, 2013
4,006
0
Toronto
Kadri can possibly be that #1C, and has looked good on the top line so far. We need a #2 possession centre to help him out. A guy who can control the puck and can create offense. To often we come down the ice, take a quick shot and its right back down to our end.

P.S. Does anyone know how to make a new thread with a poll. FAQ says to click poll box and the bottom, but can't find it. Might just be blind. :help:
 

613Leafer

Registered User
May 26, 2008
12,895
3,753
Believe me, there isn't anyone that hasn't noticed and it's been posted here too many times to count.

Burke knew
Wilson knew
Carlyle knows
Nonis knows

If an opportunity arises that makes sense, I'm sure the Leafs management will be all over it.


Pretty common denominator in those SC winners. They drafted their #1 C. We've run at a deficit for draft picks during our rebuild. Last 5 years, the league gives you 35 by default, we had 34.

We could have done a better job of asset management. Ive said this in another thread.. But dont make the trades for Liles/Bolland, and do trade Grabo/MacArthur for picks at the 2012/2013 trade deadlines when a lot of people wanted those guys traded, and the net difference would probably be an extra 6-7 picks, including 4-5 2nd rounders. Thats pretty substantial.

Dont trade for Liles/Bolland, do trade the two guys who CLEARLY were not part of this team longterm (which was said by a lot of people, and is now shown to have been an accurate prediction), and we'd have a boatload of extra picks, and ultimately the team would more or less be in the same spot it is now. Yes, Bolland has played well for us, but at the end of the day, Bozak is already signed longterm, and is the calibre of player you'd expect as a 3rd line C on a contender. If we just wanted a shortterm fix, we could have found it in free agency. If we wanted a longterm fix for 3rd line C when we traded for Bolland, then we shouldnt have resigned Bozak because thats what he ultimately is.

This team doesnt build to be a sustainable SC contender, they fill shortterm holes by trading picks, holes that ultimately will need upgrades via some other means, indicating that trading those picks away really isnt helping us build towards being an actual contender.

If you already have a contending core in place, it can make sense to trade picks for secondary veterans to "go for it". But we're not at that level yet. Draft picks are lottery tickets, not guarantees. But as a philosophy, if you can acquire an extra 5-10 picks over a five year span as opposed to losing a few extras, thats how you increase your odds of finding Bergeron, Stastny, Backes, Datsyuk, Weber, Letang, Keith, etc in the draft.
 

KessMeRandy

Registered User
Nov 25, 2013
395
9
Pretty common denominator in those SC winners. They drafted their #1 C. We've run at a deficit for draft picks during our rebuild. Last 5 years, the league gives you 35 by default, we had 34.

We could have done a better job of asset management. Ive said this in another thread.. But dont make the trades for Liles/Bolland, and do trade Grabo/MacArthur for picks at the 2012/2013 trade deadlines when a lot of people wanted those guys traded, and the net difference would probably be an extra 6-7 picks, including 4-5 2nd rounders. Thats pretty substantial.

Dont trade for Liles/Bolland, do trade the two guys who CLEARLY were not part of this team longterm (which was said by a lot of people, and is now shown to have been an accurate prediction), and we'd have a boatload of extra picks, and ultimately the team would more or less be in the same spot it is now. Yes, Bolland has played well for us, but at the end of the day, Bozak is already signed longterm, and is the calibre of player you'd expect as a 3rd line C on a contender. If we just wanted a shortterm fix, we could have found it in free agency. If we wanted a longterm fix for 3rd line C when we traded for Bolland, then we shouldnt have resigned Bozak because thats what he ultimately is.

This team doesnt build to be a sustainable SC contender, they fill shortterm holes by trading picks, holes that ultimately will need upgrades via some other means, indicating that trading those picks away really isnt helping us build towards being an actual contender.

If you already have a contending core in place, it can make sense to trade picks for secondary veterans to "go for it". But we're not at that level yet. Draft picks are lottery tickets, not guarantees. But as a philosophy, if you can acquire an extra 5-10 picks over a five year span as opposed to losing a few extras, thats how you increase your odds of finding Bergeron, Stastny, Backes, Datsyuk, Weber, Letang, Keith, etc in the draft.

THANK YOU! THAT'S WHAT I'M SAYING. FINALLY. lol
 

The Iceman

Registered User
Sep 22, 2007
5,108
3,763
Because having Mats Sundin as a TRUE #1 center for 13 years worked out so well....

Hell, the Leafs had both Sundin and Gilmour as centers at one time. You will not get much better than that.

Argument proven flawed...close thread
 

KessMeRandy

Registered User
Nov 25, 2013
395
9
Because having Mats Sundin as a TRUE #1 center for 13 years worked out so well....

Hell, the Leafs had both Sundin and Gilmour as centers at one time. You will not get much better than that.

Argument proven flawed...close thread

no, no its not. lol. you also need other players. and btw, both of those guys went to the conference finals twice. they were RELATIVELY successful, with way worse, older teams.
 

Kessley Snipes*

Guest
lol, you'd be willing to pay little to no cost for a 1C. This is a ****ing joke.

The only joke is you believing we can acquire a #1C without giving up a significant asset. Essentially a lateral move.

Teams draft these players. That's how you acquire them.
:laugh:
 

King85Kong

Playoffs?
Nov 24, 2013
4,006
0
Toronto
Because having Mats Sundin as a TRUE #1 center for 13 years worked out so well....

Hell, the Leafs had both Sundin and Gilmour as centers at one time. You will not get much better than that.

Argument proven flawed...close thread

Ah, you know that we went to the conference finals with Sundin, and were close several times? You might want to re-think your post.
We went down when the salary cap was introduced, due to poor drafting and mismanagement.
 

Kessley Snipes*

Guest
It's looking like Dallas just did it this past off season. Must be nice.

Eriksson, Smith, Morrow and Fraser.

It wasnt like Dallas just phoned up Boston one day and got Seguin for Free. Eriksson is a bonafide top 6 Winger when healthy and Smith is looking like he has first line potential.
 

King85Kong

Playoffs?
Nov 24, 2013
4,006
0
Toronto
Eriksson, Smith, Morrow and Fraser.

It wasnt like Dallas just phoned up Boston one day and got Seguin for Free. Eriksson is a bonafide top 6 Winger when healthy and Smith is looking like he has first line potential.

Was referring to your second line about how teams getting 1C by drafting. Teams can draft them or trade for them. And agree to get you got to be willing to give, and for a 1C i would. Centres are important in the NHL. Most contenders are good in that position.
 

Kessley Snipes*

Guest
Was referring to your second line about how teams getting 1C by drafting. Teams can draft them or trade for them. And agree to get you got to be willing to give, and for a 1C i would. Centres are important in the NHL. Most contenders are good in that position.

Sure. Seguin is one example. The last one I can think of otherwise was when Boston secretly shopped Thornton and basically gave him to San Jose for nothing.

Take a look at the NHL right now and each teams #1 Centre. I would go so far as to say 3/4 of them were drafted by that team.
 

Community

44 is Rielly good
Oct 30, 2010
6,808
1,723
The Darkest Timeline
I don't understand why everybody believes we either have to trade for a #1C or have a top 2 pick to get a #1C for our first line. Kopitar went 11th overall, Arnott went 7th, Krejci/Bergeron went 63 and 45th overall, Richards went 24th, Getzlaf went 19th, etc. etc.

Why do I feel like conversations about a #1C always go like this:

Person 1: If only we had a top 10 pick and chose a C...

Person 2: His name is Nazem Kadri and he has all the potential in the world.

Person 1: His defense sucks! Maybe we should pick more C's and hope one of them can be an elite 2-way beast!

Person 2: Alright... we have Gauthier that's been an all-star defensively, maybe he can develop offense.

Person 1: No way! Too defensive.

Person 2: Well what about Verhaeghe, boom/bust prospect that's looked great offensively!

Person 1: No way! Too late of a pick! Let's trade Kessel + JVR for M. Richards! that'll surely help us compete!


No matter how you look at it, we've acquired more depth at the #1C spot recently, have a helluva good #1D prospect, a very good C sophomore that is just a bit shy of ppg (20 pts in 27 games I believe), depth C's that could become serviceable top 6 Cs, etc.

We've drafted a potential #1C and #1D with our last 2 top 10 picks, yet apparently they can't become a #1C or #1D while our later draft picks can't either. On the other hand, many of our "fans" won't hesitate to say what a steal Maatta was for Pittsburgh or how we have nobody near as good as Bergeron (who's on pace for less than 40 pts). Our fanbase annoys the crap out of me lately.

/rant
 

Kessley Snipes*

Guest
or how we have nobody near as good as Bergeron (who's on pace for less than 40 pts). Our fanbase annoys the crap out of me lately.

/rant

I was with you until that. Patrice Bergeron (with his one, slightly terrible offensive season), is still better than any Centre in our organization. Including Kadri.

Let's just disregard everything Bergeron is, or has done because he is not producing points this year.

wow. :laugh:
 

JAMmer124

Independent Living
Aug 13, 2010
5,415
1
Welland, Ontario
Sure. Seguin is one example. The last one I can think of otherwise was when Boston secretly shopped Thornton and basically gave him to San Jose for nothing.

Take a look at the NHL right now and each teams #1 Centre. I would go so far as to say 3/4 of them were drafted by that team.

ANA: Getzlaf (draft)
BOS: Bergeron (draft)
BUF: Hodgson(?) (trade)
CAL: Cammaleri(?) (trade) or Hudler(FA)
CAR: Staal (draft)
CBJ: Anisimov (trade)
CHI: Toews (draft)
COL: Duchene (draft)
DAL: Seguin (trade)
DET: Datsyuk (draft)
EDM: RNH (draft)
FLA: ...dunno
LA: Kopitar (draft)
MIN: Koivu (draft)
MTL: Plekanec (draft)
NAS: Legwand/Wilson (draft)
NJ: Zajac (draft)
NYI: Tavares (draft)
NYR: Richards (FA)
OTT: Spezza (draft)
PHI: Giroux (draft)
PHO: Riberio (FA)
PIT: Crosby (draft)
SJ: Thornton (trade)
STL: Backes (draft)
TB: Stamkos (draft)
TOR: Kadri (draft)
VAN: Sedin (draft)
WAS: Backstrom (draft)
WIN: Little (draft)

final count: 22 drafted, 4-5 traded for, 2-3 free agents. 1 unknown.

If someone could fill in Flordia for me that'd be great, but yeah north of 2/3 #1 centres are drafted.
 

rdawg1234

Registered User
Jul 2, 2012
4,586
0
I was with you until that. Patrice Bergeron (with his one, slightly terrible offensive season), is still better than any Centre in our organization. Including Kadri.

Let's just disregard everything Bergeron is, or has done because he is not producing points this year.

wow. :laugh:

Not THAT much better, he's definitely a 1b kind of centre, amazing defensively, very average offensively.

Boston has very strong wings, a great defensive core, Chara is probably the best d-man in the league or at least top 3, plus boychuk, seidenberg etc.

we essentially have a similar system, we have our krejci in kadri(Kadri may be a little better) but we dont have our 1a two-way strong centre like a bergeron.

We also need to improve our defense.

The mold for us to become what they were/are is there, we have a very strong group of wings, a solid group of bottom 9 centres we're just missing a piece or two on the blueline(a #2-#3 guy), and that elusive #1 or #1b centre. We're also still pretty young and growing, especially with guys like Reilly/Gardiner still developing.
 

Community

44 is Rielly good
Oct 30, 2010
6,808
1,723
The Darkest Timeline
I was with you until that. Patrice Bergeron (with his one, slightly terrible offensive season), is still better than any Centre in our organization. Including Kadri.

Let's just disregard everything Bergeron is, or has done because he is not producing points this year.

wow. :laugh:

To be clear I was just pointing out that everybody puts Bergeron on a pedestal when he's actually not an elite #1C IMO. Bergeron's best two point producing seasons were his 2nd and 3rd seasons. I don't understand why we put a limit on a player like Kadri when he's produced more by age 23 than many #1Cs have.

I'm not comparing the two, and yes Bergeron's defense is awesome, but he gets over-rated SO much...

And yes, of course Bergeron is better than any C we have in our organization, he's also 5 years older than our most promising center... Do I expect Kadri to be better than Bergeron? nope... is it possible? With Kadri's skillset, he can do a lot if he can avoid injuries/suspensions and focus on improving his defense. I don't really know.
 

Kessley Snipes*

Guest
ANA: Getzlaf (draft)
BOS: Bergeron (draft)
BUF: Hodgson(?) (trade)
CAL: Cammaleri(?) (trade) or Hudler(FA)
CAR: Staal (draft)
CBJ: Anisimov (trade)
CHI: Toews (draft)
COL: Duchene (draft)
DAL: Seguin (trade)
DET: Datsyuk (draft)
EDM: RNH (draft)
FLA: ...dunno
LA: Kopitar (draft)
MIN: Koivu (draft)
MTL: Plekanec (draft)
NAS: Legwand/Wilson (draft)
NJ: Zajac (draft)
NYI: Tavares (draft)
NYR: Richards (FA)
OTT: Spezza (draft)
PHI: Giroux (draft)
PHO: Riberio (FA)
PIT: Crosby (draft)
SJ: Thornton (trade)
STL: Backes (draft)
TB: Stamkos (draft)
TOR: Kadri (draft)
VAN: Sedin (draft)
WAS: Backstrom (draft)
WIN: Little (draft)

final count: 22 drafted, 4-5 traded for, 2-3 free agents. 1 unknown.

If someone could fill in Flordia for me that'd be great, but yeah north of 2/3 #1 centres are drafted.

Huberdeau was drafted with #1C potential and he is currently their Number 1 LW.
 

Community

44 is Rielly good
Oct 30, 2010
6,808
1,723
The Darkest Timeline
ANA: Getzlaf (draft)
BOS: Bergeron (draft)
BUF: Hodgson(?) (trade)
CAL: Cammaleri(?) (trade) or Hudler(FA)
CAR: Staal (draft)
CBJ: Anisimov (trade)
CHI: Toews (draft)
COL: Duchene (draft)
DAL: Seguin (trade)
DET: Datsyuk (draft)
EDM: RNH (draft)
FLA: ...dunno
LA: Kopitar (draft)
MIN: Koivu (draft)
MTL: Plekanec (draft)
NAS: Legwand/Wilson (draft)
NJ: Zajac (draft)
NYI: Tavares (draft)
NYR: Richards (FA)
OTT: Spezza (draft)
PHI: Giroux (draft)
PHO: Riberio (FA)
PIT: Crosby (draft)
SJ: Thornton (trade)
STL: Backes (draft)
TB: Stamkos (draft)
TOR: Kadri (draft)
VAN: Sedin (draft)
WAS: Backstrom (draft)
WIN: Little (draft)

final count: 22 drafted, 4-5 traded for, 2-3 free agents. 1 unknown.

If someone could fill in Flordia for me that'd be great, but yeah north of 2/3 #1 centres are drafted.

Huberdeau has the most toi by a C listed on NHL.com, but he's playing as a winger... I'd put Goc or Barkov there... In the future it'll be Barkov then Bjugstad with Huberdeau playing #1LW (most likely). Goc was drafted by SJ.


Edit: Also curious if this list is suppose to be who their #1C currently is, or just who you think is better... For example, Jokinen is currently playing the most toi as a C for Winnipeg (unless I mis-read nhl.com) and Kadri would be behind Bozak (FA/NCAA). Turris has more toi/g than spezza who's been struggling so he'd be a trade (from Phoenix).

If you're just doing who you think is/will be the best than disregard the above.
 

King85Kong

Playoffs?
Nov 24, 2013
4,006
0
Toronto
ANA: Getzlaf (draft)
BOS: Bergeron (draft)
BUF: Hodgson(?) (trade)
CAL: Cammaleri(?) (trade) or Hudler(FA)
CAR: Staal (draft)
CBJ: Anisimov (trade)
CHI: Toews (draft)
COL: Duchene (draft)
DAL: Seguin (trade)
DET: Datsyuk (draft)
EDM: RNH (draft)
FLA: ...dunno
LA: Kopitar (draft)
MIN: Koivu (draft)
MTL: Plekanec (draft)
NAS: Legwand/Wilson (draft)
NJ: Zajac (draft)
NYI: Tavares (draft)
NYR: Richards (FA)
OTT: Spezza (draft)
PHI: Giroux (draft)
PHO: Riberio (FA)
PIT: Crosby (draft)
SJ: Thornton (trade)
STL: Backes (draft)
TB: Stamkos (draft)
TOR: Kadri (draft)
VAN: Sedin (draft)
WAS: Backstrom (draft)
WIN: Little (draft)

final count: 22 drafted, 4-5 traded for, 2-3 free agents. 1 unknown.

If someone could fill in Flordia for me that'd be great, but yeah north of 2/3 #1 centres are drafted.

Its good that we drafted our #1C Kadri then. :handclap:
Now hopefully Holland can work out to be a good #2C, which would be amazing
 

Community

44 is Rielly good
Oct 30, 2010
6,808
1,723
The Darkest Timeline
Its good that we drafted our #1C Kadri then. :handclap:
Now hopefully Holland can work out to be a good #2C, which would be amazing

I'm hoping for Gauthier to produce more offensively and become a ~40-50pt beast defensive C that uses his size to his advantage... That's pretty much the perfect 2nd line C (obviously more points would be nice, but this is possible and I'd love it).
 

Kessley Snipes*

Guest
Its good that we drafted our #1C Kadri then. :handclap:
Now hopefully Holland can work out to be a good #2C, which would be amazing

Kadri is not a #1C unless he does 1 of two things.

1) Becomes Elite Defensively
2) Has a few 70 Point Seasons

I am not saying he isn't capable of these things, but as of RIGHT NOW he is a very good #2 C and there is nothing wrong with that.

Holland is interesting because I think he has all the makings of a very good #2 C as well.

Ideally Kadri plays with JVR/Phil and Holland finds a home with Lupul/Raymond.

That leaves a very expensive third line of Kulemin/Bozak/Clarkson; where ideally Kulemin is retained and Bozak/Clarkson eventually give way to Gauthier/Leivo or D'Amigo.
 

JAMmer124

Independent Living
Aug 13, 2010
5,415
1
Welland, Ontario
Huberdeau has the most toi by a C listed on NHL.com, but he's listed as a winger... I'd put Goc or Barkov there... In the future it'll be Barkov then Bjugstad

Goc was drafted by SJ.


Edit: Also curious if this list is suppose to be who their #1C currently is, or just who you think is better... For example, Jokinen is currently playing the most toi as a C for Winnipeg (unless I mis-read nhl.com) and Kadri would be behind Bozak (FA/NCAA). Turris has more toi/g than spezza who's been struggling so he'd be a trade (from Phoenix).

If you're just doing who you think is/will be the best than disregard the above.

I went off the top of my head with their "best" centre. Hence Little over Jokinen, Spezza over Turris and Kadri over Bozak. I don't really believe in TOI as a stat as it can be heavily skewed with PP/PK and injuries.
 

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