Celebrini for Calder

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The conversation about generational player in Celebrini has started ultimately because Bedard was hyped as one. Celebrini challenging Bedard skill wise has brought the conversation if Celebrini is actually even better and that has brought the generational to the conversation.
After reading a lot of good examples of what makes a generational player, I would agree that neither Celebrini or Bedard have yet proven to be that. And I don't know if they ever will. And that's very fine, because they are very very talented young players with a bright future regardless.
 
The conversation about generational player in Celebrini has started ultimately because Bedard was hyped as one. Celebrini challenging Bedard skill wise has brought the conversation if Celebrini is actually even better and that has brought the generational to the conversation.
After reading a lot of good examples of what makes a generational player, I would agree that neither Celebrini or Bedard have yet proven to be that. And I don't know if they ever will. And that's very fine, because they are very very talented young players with a bright future regardless.
For sure. You would have to be an insane homer to think Celebrini is a generational player on par with Crosby/Ovechkin/McDavid. I thought he would be more like Toews but hes shaping up to be better than that. (of course that could change)
 
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The original Hockey’s Future is the first place that defined “generational talent.” They based it off of the actual dictionary definition of generational (a period of about 20-25 years), and IIRC their examples at each position were Gretzky, Orr, and Roy.

The term has undergone massive inflation since then, and every argument about whether a player is generational boils down primarily to how much further each party is willing to cheapen the definition. Realistically, McDavid is the only generational player since Gretzky/Lemieux.

But like the presumptive all time leader in goals has to be generational right? And I think Crosby was a better player than Ovechkin
 
But like the presumptive all time leader in goals has to be generational right? And I think Crosby was a better player than Ovechkin
The former all-time leader in home runs, Hank Aaron, played at the same time as the even better Willie Mays, the higher-peaking Mickey Mantle and Carl Yastrzemski, and fellow right-fielder Frank Robinson.

Yes, it's a different sport, but it's the same principle and why the term "generational" is either counter-productive or even somewhat toxic.
 
But like the presumptive all time leader in goals has to be generational right? And I think Crosby was a better player than Ovechkin
Not necessarily.

Take for example Hank Aaron. Held the home run record in baseball for a long time, mostly due to longevity plus being able to perform at a high level late in his career without as much dropoff as most players. But was he ever the far and away best offensive player in baseball during his entire career? Not really. He was one of an elite group of guys, but he didn't stand out from them in season. He only won one MVP in his career. He just outlasted everybody else.

That's not me taking a stand on Ovechkin though.

(edit: someone beat me to it)
 
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Legendary: One of the greatest of all time; a household name, someone you would seriously consider having a league-wide jersey retirement
Generational: All-time top-10 (excluding legendary players) at his position (center/winger/defense/goalie)
Franchise: A guy who you could win a cup with if he's your best player; a constant threat to win a major award and a peak/prime where he's top-5 player in the league.

In the past ~20 years, McDavid is the only guy who has come close to legendary status. He along with Crosby, Ovechkin, Brodeur, Jagr, and Lidstrom are sure-fire generational talents. Makar is trending as another generational talent
 
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I like it. If there's a link somewhere to this, it would really make these discussions easier to nip in the bud. 18 years on here, you'd think I knew better.
I can't prove that the term originated from Hockey's future, but Google Trends shows no significant usage of the term until 2018.

This is how Hockey's Future originally defined it back in 2004:
10- Generational talent - a player for the ages, one that can do things with a puck that no other player would even contemplate doing. Very, very few players will be deserving of this rank, probably one per decade. Think Wayne Gretzky, Mario Lemieux, Bobby Orr, maybe Sidney Crosby, but we'll see.
The term "one per decade" seems contradictory as we do not see a Gretzky, Lemieux, or Orr once per decade. I believe they meant that players with a generational ceiling appear once per decade, but that not all of them hit their ceiling. If this was indeed their intention, this would align with use of the term generational; we see a player with the potential to do this once every decade, and a player actually achieve it once every generation.

What I find helps contextualize the definition is also the definition of the tier below generational:
9 - Elite forward / defenseman / goaltender -- possesses the potential for greatness, a perennial All-Star throughout his career. Think Joe Sakic, Jeremy Roenick, Niklas Lidstrom, Rob Blake, Dominik Hasek, Martin Brodeur.

To me, it seems that players like Jagr, Crosby, and Ovechkin all fit firmly into the 9.5 category. You can argue Crosby had 10 potential but didn't achieve it due to injuries. You can argue Ovechkin had 10 potential but didn't achieve it due to a lack of commitment to his physical fitness. I think you can argue McDavid had 10 potential and hit it; he is the clear-cut best player of the 2000s. Based on what we've seen so far from them in the NHL, if we were to grade them based on the way that HF graded prospects, I would say Celebrini and Bedard both belong in the 9 category for potential. I would maybe give Celebrini a 9.0C and Bedard a 9.0D.

The fact that a proper, rigorous approach to this debate reduces to studying the origins of the term "generational talent" is why I find it generally pointless to engage in such debates in the first place. I mean, what the hell do I care if somebody else wants to use "generational" to describe the best player in a decade while I want to use it to describe the best player in a generation? Mine is based on the dictionary and what I believe to be the place where the term originated, theirs is based on something they read online. Who cares? We're here to discuss hockey, not English or history.

I find it much more productive to compare players to their contemporaries. Going into his draft, Bedard was said to be a player that may be on the same tier as Crosby, Ovechkin, McDavid, etc. His 113 games in the NHL are already more than enough to state he clearly does not belong in that tier.

Legendary: One of the greatest of all time; a household name, someone you would seriously consider having a league-wide jersey retirement
Generational: All-time top-10 (excluding legendary players) at his position (center/winger/defense/goalie)
Franchise: A guy who you could win a cup with if he's your best player; a constant threat to win a major award and a peak/prime where he's top-5 player in the league.

In the past ~20 years, McDavid is the only guy who has come close to legendary status. He along with Crosby, Ovechkin, Brodeur, Jagr, and Lidstrom are sure-fire generational talents. Makar is trending as another generational talent
Here's a perfect example of "generational" inflation: Making up a new tier above generational (for players who were previously considered generational) so that players in the tier below generational can now be called that.
 
Here's a perfect example of "generational" inflation: Making up a new tier above generational (for players who were previously considered generational) so that players in the tier below generational can now be called that.
Have to keep up with the times. Back in my day, a generational got you a Gretzky, or an Orr. But now, whip out a generational and you get at best, a McDavid, and usually just a Crosby.
 
ive believed that ovie/crosby in the 00s makes up for the lack of generational in the late 90s. And yes i do believe Crosbys generational. McDavid obviously for the 10s- early 20s. No i dont think Celly has the ability to be generational, and thats not a knock at all.

but i think the HF definitions needs to be modified, as between elite and generational there should be franchise guys and maybe even superstars/allstars before elite. Elite is a term thrown around way too much, but all-star narrows the definition to those who could make an all-star team/olympics etc. Then superstars would be the best on those teams. Working youre way up.
 
The original Hockey’s Future is the first place that defined “generational talent.” They based it off of the actual dictionary definition of generational (a period of about 20-25 years), and IIRC their examples at each position were Gretzky, Orr, and Roy.

The term has undergone massive inflation since then, and every argument about whether a player is generational boils down primarily to how much further each party is willing to cheapen the definition. Realistically, McDavid is the only generational player since Gretzky/Lemieux.

Crosby erasure
 
I can't prove that the term originated from Hockey's future, but Google Trends shows no significant usage of the term until 2018.

This is how Hockey's Future originally defined it back in 2004:

The term "one per decade" seems contradictory as we do not see a Gretzky, Lemieux, or Orr once per decade. I believe they meant that players with a generational ceiling appear once per decade, but that not all of them hit their ceiling. If this was indeed their intention, this would align with use of the term generational; we see a player with the potential to do this once every decade, and a player actually achieve it once every generation.

What I find helps contextualize the definition is also the definition of the tier below generational:


To me, it seems that players like Jagr, Crosby, and Ovechkin all fit firmly into the 9.5 category. You can argue Crosby had 10 potential but didn't achieve it due to injuries. You can argue Ovechkin had 10 potential but didn't achieve it due to a lack of commitment to his physical fitness. I think you can argue McDavid had 10 potential and hit it; he is the clear-cut best player of the 2000s. Based on what we've seen so far from them in the NHL, if we were to grade them based on the way that HF graded prospects, I would say Celebrini and Bedard both belong in the 9 category for potential. I would maybe give Celebrini a 9.0C and Bedard a 9.0D.

The fact that a proper, rigorous approach to this debate reduces to studying the origins of the term "generational talent" is why I find it generally pointless to engage in such debates in the first place. I mean, what the hell do I care if somebody else wants to use "generational" to describe the best player in a decade while I want to use it to describe the best player in a generation? Mine is based on the dictionary and what I believe to be the place where the term originated, theirs is based on something they read online. Who cares? We're here to discuss hockey, not English or history.

I find it much more productive to compare players to their contemporaries. Going into his draft, Bedard was said to be a player that may be on the same tier as Crosby, Ovechkin, McDavid, etc. His 113 games in the NHL are already more than enough to state he clearly does not belong in that tier.


Here's a perfect example of "generational" inflation: Making up a new tier above generational (for players who were previously considered generational) so that players in the tier below generational can now be called that.

I feel like “probably one per decade” properly leaves the door open for there being one, none, or multiple in a decade; but on the whole that’s what things average out to. I like that you’re pushing back against the cheapening of the term, but IMO excluding Crosby and Ovechkin is a step too far.

Simply put, any serious discussion about the greater NHL between 2005-2015 can’t be had without including Crosby and Ovechkin. Both left a historical mark on the game, were long ago unquestioned unanimous first-ballot HOF, with unimpeachable individual achievements and Cup winners. During that run there were no other players seriously discussed as they best of the league year after year after year. They’ve both got a ton of trophies to their names, and reliably contended for top individual awards over a 10+ year span. If that wasn’t enough, both are viewed as the prototype of greatness for their particular archetype across the annals of hockey history: Crosby as the elite-scoring two-way leader ideal of a center and Ovechkin as the bull-in-a-china-shop power-forward with an all-time shot.

And while McDavid clearly deserves the generational label as well, acknowledging that doesn’t diminish what Crosby and Ovechkin accomplished; much like Gretzky’s greatness doesn’t diminish Lemieux’s generational status even though they were contemporaries. Especially since the overlap is considerably less with McDavid.
 
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Generational, Legendary, Franchise, all just labels and everyone’s got a different definition and criteria for it.

All I know is he makes it fun to watch sharks games
 
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