Line Combos: CBJ Roster Discussion/Line Combos/Injury Report

[koteka]

I reshape the D with a major trade. I said before I’d go big game hunting - 1sts, important current players, prospects, all on the table. Pretty much the only guys not in the discussion are Werenski, Fantilli, and Monahan (only because it looks bad trading a guy you just signed). My ideal trade would include shipping out Severson and getting a major improvement with a right shot physical defenseman.

If big game hunting doesn’t work, how about some medium game hunting. I would try to pry a top defensive prospect from somebody. Like Nikishin from Carolina. Again, I am willing to make a deal. I fully expect we’d give up someone we wouldn’t want to.

 

[DarkandStormy]

I agree with DSL. I wouldn't let him walk. I'd try to sign him to a reasonable contract if I couldn't trade his rights.To re-shape the top 4 via trades we're going to have to give up some of our young forwards. People will moan and groan but that is going to happen if we build the D through trades.

The FA crop (at least RD) is thin - Pionk, Ekblad, and...?

Werenski - Fabbro (pending UFA)
Mateychuk - ???
Christiansen - Severson/Gudbranson

The big issue is spending $10.5m on two RDs who you probably don't trust above a 3rd pair role on a long term basis. Neither one is easy to get out of, though I guess Gudbranson is down to one year left so you could buy him out if you wanted.

I'm not totally sold on Fabbro being a top pair guy for a contending team, but for the time being he's worked best there. And it's probably too expensive to pursue an upgrade there.

Unless you really don't trust Mateychuk, Provorov seems like a luxury that you don't really need?

 

[stevo61]

The FA crop (at least RD) is thin - Pionk, Ekblad, and...?

Werenski - Fabbro (pending UFA)
Mateychuk - ???
Christiansen - Severson/Gudbranson

The big issue is spending $10.5m on two RDs who you probably don't trust above a 3rd pair role on a long term basis. Neither one is easy to get out of, though I guess Gudbranson is down to one year left so you could buy him out if you wanted.

I'm not totally sold on Fabbro being a top pair guy for a contending team, but for the time being he's worked best there. And it's probably too expensive to pursue an upgrade there.

Unless you really don't trust Mateychuk, Provorov seems like a luxury that you don't really need?

I mean Hedman's most common partners in their Cup runs were Shattenkirk/Bogosian/Ruuta. Think it's not unrealistic non trandional 1st pair guys can succeed in that role with elite talent opposite them. They offset that by having a stacked left side but it's been accomplished by them and Pitt having guys more seen as depth options playing important roles

 

[CBJx614]

another game or 2 and hopefully Evason is comfortable putting Chinny on line 2.

Not after today

 

[majormajor]

I posted a week or so ago that improvements have to be made somewhere. If we bring back (almost) all of the players from this year’s team that we’ve liked — Fabbro, Provorov, JVR — you’re really limiting that places DWad has to make the team better next year.

I've seen a few folks mention moving on from JVR, which I'm just a bit baffled by.

He just had a run of ~20 pts in 20 games for us, on a league minimum salary. Even if he's scratched every other game that's great value.

I'm fully onboard with the point that extending Provorov and Fabbro leaves us less room to make a big D upgrade, I think we should extend only Fabbro.

But JVR isn't blocking anyone important because he can be moved in and out of 4th line / 13F roles and scoring lines as needed and will be on a negligible cap hit. I suppose he would be blocking us from acquiring a pure banger or pure checking forward for that sort of role and cap hit, (the player type I wanted instead of JVR), but he's proven to be more valuable.

 

[koteka]

I've seen a few folks mention moving on from JVR, which I'm just a bit baffled by.

We are tipping pucks this season. I have to believe he is at the very least giving guys pointers. I would love to keep JVR.

 

[majormajor]

another game or 2 and hopefully Evason is comfortable putting Chinny on line 2. JVR wasn't bad there but Evason likes to tinker with strange things. Or put Voronkov there and put Chinakhov with Fantilli-Marchenko. Voronkov can't keep up with the way that line moves now anyway

Fantilli has scored a lot more net front goals than we've ever seen from him before - a few of them where he's following up to Voronkov already in the crease causing a mess for him. And today Voronkov fed him from behind the net. But there's also a lot of plays where Fantilli takes off and gets stuck by himself.

But I agree that Chinahov might be a better fit there than Voronkov, he's got the speed, we know he can keep up with Fantilli and we know that he can weave with Marchenko. It would be nice to see him get going.

Personally - and I know the coaches are not going to do this - but this would be the time I would go full Siberian:

Chinakhov - Voronkov - Marchenko
Fantilli - Jenner - KJ

We know that Siberian line works and I'd be very curious if Fantilli can keep his confidence going with Jenner and KJ. They are good players to play with and Fantilli should be able to play with them.

** Just as I'm finishing this comment I'm seeing Fantilli's third goal. That's a grind it behind the net and go low-high play where Fantilli is doing the dirty work in tandem with his linemates. I changed my mind . For Fantilli's development I want to see him playing more and more of that style, and if he can do that with Voronkov and Marchenko then keep that going.

I reshape the D with a major trade. I said before I’d go big game hunting - 1sts, important current players, prospects, all on the table. Pretty much the only guys not in the discussion are Werenski, Fantilli, and Monahan (only because it looks bad trading a guy you just signed). My ideal trade would include shipping out Severson and getting a major improvement with a right shot physical defenseman.

If big game hunting doesn’t work, how about some medium game hunting. I would try to pry a top defensive prospect from somebody. Like Nikishin from Carolina. Again, I am willing to make a deal. I fully expect we’d give up someone we wouldn’t want to.

Buddy still hasn't figured out how valuable Kirill Marchenko is.

I'm 100% in favor of paying a big trade price if we need to, but downgrading because you don't understand what players are worth?

He's one of the most valuable U25 players in the entire NHL and you think you're being smart by leaving him off your no touch list.

** For context, have a look at the top 30 players by game score this year - Jack Hughes is the only other U25 forward on the list.

I mean Hedman's most common partners in their Cup runs were Shattenkirk/Bogosian/Ruuta. Think it's not unrealistic non trandional 1st pair guys can succeed in that role with elite talent opposite them. They offset that by having a stacked left side but it's been accomplished by them and Pitt having guys more seen as depth options playing important roles

Fabbro looks better next to Werenski than ANY of Hedman's partners did next to him.

 

[spintheblackcircle]

Here is my dream power play next season

Marchenko/Voronkov/Fantilli/Werenski........and Mitch Marner.

 

[koteka]

Buddy still hasn't figured out how valuable Kirill Marchenko is.

I'm 100% in favor of paying a big trade price if we need to, but downgrading because you don't understand what players are worth?

I really don’t want to trade the guys, but I’m not saying never. We need to change our defense dramatically, and that is going to cost us. I think two years ago I said Marchenko is one of the most valuable players on the team because he seems to be the leader of the Russians/Europeans. He is about the last guy I want to trade. But until we flip the defense into something that can stop another good team when needed, we aren’t winning any Cups. I only care about Cups, not just being good. And at some point you have to recognize several really strong wings is a luxury, and we can give up 1.

 

[majormajor]

Here is my dream power play next season

Marchenko/Voronkov/Fantilli/Werenski........and Mitch Marner.

Feels inefficient to me to be paying a guy $13.5m to be a possible marginal upgrade on KJ.

Maybe he's a big upgrade, or a small upgrade, or maybe KJ is better from here on. I don't know. But my median expectation is not much of an upgrade.

That's the main issue with the Marner talk - we actually have a lot of wingers with elite skill already, it's not the part of our lineup that needs help the most.

 

[spintheblackcircle]

I see your point, but most of the top UFA's are forwards and I am not sure how much any of the defensemen move the needle. But I think Marner/KJ/Monahan could be a co #1 line.

 

[majormajor]

I really don’t want to trade the guys, but I’m not saying never. We need to change our defense dramatically, and that is going to cost us. I think two years ago I said Marchenko is one of the most valuable players on the team because he seems to be the leader of the Russians/Europeans. He is about the last guy I want to trade. But until we flip the defense into something that can stop another good team when needed, we aren’t winning any Cups. I only care about Cups, not just being good. And at some point you have to recognize several really strong wings is a luxury, and we can give up 1.

A Marchenko move gets you another #1D, which we really don't need. And downgrades our offense and potentially is a downgrade in the room (he's core in a social sense as well).

What we're missing from the Tampa formula is Ryan McDonagh, not Victor Hedman. Getting a player like that will be very costly, and we should bite the bullet and pay that cost. But it won't be as costly as you imagine. Unless you're talking about Slavin - literally the #1 defensive player on the planet - it's not going to cost you Marchenko.

Using McDonagh as an example - he was traded to Tampa for a middling futures package. He was also recently traded back and forth from Nashville for a more notional cost. And funny enough Jarmo had a deal worked out to get him but McDonagh used his trade protection to steer himself to Nashville. We absolutely can get a player like that. And we would maybe have to pay more to make sure we get the right guy who doesn't use his NMC on us, but that's fine, it still won't cost us one of our top forwards.

 

[majormajor]

I see your point, but most of the top UFA's are forwards and I am not sure how much any of the defensemen move the needle. But I think Marner/KJ/Monahan could be a co #1 line.

That looks more like spending just to spend. If we can't get what we need in UFA (like Gavrikov) then we should be focused on trading for what we need (starting with a top shutdown D).

 

[Viqsi]

I really don’t want to trade the guys, but I’m not saying never. We need to change our defense dramatically, and that is going to cost us. I think two years ago I said Marchenko is one of the most valuable players on the team because he seems to be the leader of the Russians/Europeans. He is about the last guy I want to trade. But until we flip the defense into something that can stop another good team when needed, we aren’t winning any Cups. I only care about Cups, not just being good. And at some point you have to recognize several really strong wings is a luxury, and we can give up 1.

I suspect you're still reflexively assuming a world in which the center is the one carrying the line and the wingers are support. Marchenko carries our top line. There's no ifs, ands, or buts about it. He's the offense engine. Doesn't matter that he's a winger; he does it anyways.

 

[koteka]

A Marchenko move gets you another #1D, which we really don't need. And downgrades our offense and potentially is a downgrade in the room (he's core in a social sense as well).

I don’t believe Marchenko gets you a 1D. Maybe a solid 2/3 D. Wings just don’t have that value. But anyway, my move is to not only trade a wing (preferably Voronkov to Marchenko, btw, and I don’t eliminate trading KJ either) to not only get us a great D but also get rid of Severson and that contract.

Agree 100% on Marchenko’s standing in the room. I totally believe he is a better leader than Jenner. That is why he is probably the last wing I trade, but I am open to trading all wings.

This team has a long history of overvaluing wings. You can easily pick up a very good wing in the trade market at the deadline if needed. What we need to build is a great defensive group and strong centers. Goalies are voodoo and wings are easy to get.

Again, I want to win a Cup. I don’t want to have a good team that can make the playoffs 6 years in a row but have nothing to show for it.

 

[koteka]

I suspect you're still reflexively assuming a world in which the center is the one carrying the line and the wingers are support. Marchenko carries our top line. There's no ifs, ands, or buts about it. He's the offense engine. Doesn't matter that he's a winger; he does it anyways.

I am reflexively assuming the defense as constructed cannot compete for Cups. I will die on that hill. I have been pointing it out for the last however many years. So the question is how do you change the defense? The answer is you have to to make trades involving guys you don’t want to trade.

BTW, Voronkov is the guy I’d rather trade. I am a Blue Jackets fan, not the fan of an individual player. I was in the camp that wanted to trade Boone last year. I also threw out trading Chinakhov last year and people didn’t like that either. And after the injuries this year and seeing other guys step up, those definitely would have been smart moves.

 

[Viqsi]

I am reflexively assuming the defense as constructed cannot compete for Cups. I will die on that hill. I have been pointing it out for the last however many years. So the question is how do you change the defense? The answer is you have to to make trades involving guys you don’t want to trade.

BTW, Voronkov is the guy I’d rather trade. I am a Blue Jackets fan, not the fan of an individual player. I was in the camp that wanted to trade Boone last year. I also threw out trading Chinakhov last year and people didn’t like that either. And after the injuries this year and seeing other guys step up, those definitely would have been smart moves.

There's "don't want to trade" because they're valuable and fan favorites, and then there's "don't want to trade" because it'll sabotage one of the best performing top lines in hockey. Dismissing Marchenko because he's a winger rather than a center is akin to dismissing Werenski because he's LD instead of RD.

 

[Fred Glover]

Something is going to happen with the blue line in the off-season
Returning players: Werenski, Matechuk, Severson, Gudbranson, and Christiansen
If they resign Fabbro and Provonov, that’s seven defenders right there. I think they want to add a defenseman or two, so who stays and who goes will be interesting

 

[majormajor]

What I think we'll do for D next season:

Werenski - Provorov
Mateychuk - Gubranson
Hunt / Christiansen / etc... - Severson

What I would like to do for next season:

Werenski - Fabbro
Gavrikov/Pelech, etc.. - Severson
Mateychuk - Gudbranson

 

[Napoli]

I don’t believe Marchenko gets you a 1D. Maybe a solid 2/3 D. Wings just don’t have that value. But anyway, my move is to not only trade a wing (preferably Voronkov to Marchenko, btw, and I don’t eliminate trading KJ either) to not only get us a great D but also get rid of Severson and that contract.

Agree 100% on Marchenko’s standing in the room. I totally believe he is a better leader than Jenner. That is why he is probably the last wing I trade, but I am open to trading all wings.

This team has a long history of overvaluing wings. You can easily pick up a very good wing in the trade market at the deadline if needed. What we need to build is a great defensive group and strong centers. Goalies are voodoo and wings are easy to get.

Again, I want to win a Cup. I don’t want to have a good team that can make the playoffs 6 years in a row but have nothing to show for it.

I agree with you on a lot but whole heartedly disagree here. Even if this team needs upgrades on D, Marchenko is our #1 forward. He easily brings back a #1 D and I still wouldn't trade him. He's one of the best players 5 on 5 in the NHL. You don't trade that for damn near anything, he's often times the one making our offense click when literally everyone else is being useless. Marchenko is a legit top player in the NHL and the world has not recognized him because he plays in a smaller market. Imo, he's better than KJ, Chinny, Voronkov. Any player you trade for, in order to improve the team, is being acquired to play WITH Kirill, not without.

 

[spintheblackcircle]

Marchenko brings back a low #1 D, I agree and I agree I wouldn't do it.

 

[CBJx614]

Marchenko is a glue guy, if he's locked up long term he'll likely have a letter on his jersey at some point too. And that's all just icing on the cake compared to his play on the ice, considering him to be traded is absolutely asinine.

 

[Double-Shift Lasse]

I've seen a few folks mention moving on from JVR, which I'm just a bit baffled by.

He just had a run of ~20 pts in 20 games for us, on a league minimum salary. Even if he's scratched every other game that's great value.

I'm fully onboard with the point that extending Provorov and Fabbro leaves us less room to make a big D upgrade, I think we should extend only Fabbro.

But JVR isn't blocking anyone important because he can be moved in and out of 4th line / 13F roles and scoring lines as needed and will be on a negligible cap hit. I suppose he would be blocking us from acquiring a pure banger or pure checking forward for that sort of role and cap hit, (the player type I wanted instead of JVR), but he's proven to be more valuable.

Never once did I advocate “moving on from JVR.” Look back if you’re interested and see where I said we should offer him a two-year contract.

I’m just pointing out that change is gonna have come from somewhere.

 

[majormajor]

Never once did I advocate “moving on from JVR.” Look back if you’re interested and see where I said we should offer him a two-year contract.

I’m just pointing out that change is gonna have come from somewhere.

Right - I didn't mean to imply that you were arguing that. It was something other people were saying in conversation with you.

 

[cbjthrowaway]

Fantilli has scored a lot more net front goals than we've ever seen from him before

I think this has very little to do with JVR being around and a lot to do with 1) having only played 47 NHL games before this year, all of which were as a teenager and 2) now playing with two linemates who love to cycle down low and feed the puck from below the goal line.

Personally - and I know the coaches are not going to do this - but this would be the time I would go full Siberian:

Chinakhov - Voronkov - Marchenko
Fantilli - Jenner - KJ

We know that Siberian line works and I'd be very curious if Fantilli can keep his confidence going with Jenner and KJ. They are good players to play with and Fantilli should be able to play with them.

10-19-86 has outscored opponents 15-3 at 5v5 since fantilli got elevated to that line, there's no reason to mess with what's working.

portzline did a piece early in the season asking scouts about the blue jackets young players and the quote about voronkov was basically "this guy is awesome but his game has zero detail to it" – hence why evason's put him on the wing this year.

if the goal is simply to get chinakhov going, the answer is probably to just let him play through it for now. their top two lines really worked tonight. I don't mind playing him with danforth for a bit and letting him get his legs back.

Fabbro looks better next to Werenski than ANY of Hedman's partners did next to him.

really hoping they're able to hold onto fabbro long-term. I'm hoping they take a swing at getting someone like parayko this summer to pair with mateychuk.

that said, with kovacevic signing an extension in new jersey (and them needing a 3C badly) I wonder if something around sillinger + a pick for nemec could work. but he'd feel more like a fabbro replacement than a provorov one.