Line Combos: CBJ Roster Discussion/Line Combos/Injury Report

[stevo61]

What’s there to figure out exactly ? The front office believes in playing centers as centers .. Sillinger like Fantilli earlier in the year hasn’t had the best line mates all season and should definitely be ahead of Dell Bell at this point . Evason and Waddell see Boone and his size as a wing .. Could it change as the season progresses sure… However we heard the same comments about Fantilli all year , and turns out Evason and Waddell knew what they were doing . Porty said recently the front office is thrilled were Sillinger is in his development . Sillinger has 27 points in 51 games .. Boone last yr had 35 points in 58 games ..

Feel like there are some slight differences between last years team and this team that contribute to point totals. Sometimes coaches get as lucky as it is good. Like Evason said, in Nov he wouldn't have guessed Fantilli could have been providing 26min games as a 1C. A coaching staff can fight the obvious thing but a good coach can't fight it forever. Vincent fought the Russians skill and Evason took time to fully understand how good Voronkov was but eventually figured it out. I also don't think it's a secret a center depth of Fantilli-Jenner-Sillinger is better than Fantilli-Sillinger-LDBB (who is still figuring out being a pro). We also have plenty of evidence JVR and KJ work so again splitting them up to put him with Sillinger who we've seen time and time again struggle with offensive lines is a strange move. It's not even a slight to Sillinger to say he's a 3rd line guy, he's young and that's what he is right now

 

[majormajor]

He is 21. There are only 11 people from his draft class who have at least 40 points. Only 19 people from his draft class have at least 20 points. Only 21 people have played 50 NHL games. I still have some optimism for Sillinger and some other people in that draft class that I have seen people write off — I am not writing off McTavish or Owen Power either.

Who said anything about writing players off? I said I don't think he's about to pop, speaking about the next game.

But FWIW, he also doesn't have the toolkit for skilled scoring roles. McTavish sucks right now but he has toolkit, and those are the young players you bet on rising up into top roles later on. Sillinger will get better but not into a top six center.

Maybe, just maybe, the guys that work in the NHL and have years of coaching and playing experience are right - the fans are wrong about Sillinger.

My obligatory "I don't get the Sillinger dissatisfaction" post... I'm wondering if maybe the coaches see more in Sillinger than you all do. I just don't see the pain he inflicts on some of you in his game. Just don't. As I understand it the job of a coach is to put the best players in the best position to generate team success (and player development).

Team success and Cole Sillinger is a bit of a nasty subject. He's last among Blue Jackets in every play driving category (xGs and corsi and so on) and last in goals results.

The Blue Jackets with Sillinger on the bench are a very good 5v5 team - outscoring opponents 105 to 83.

With Cole Sillinger on the ice we are the ones getting outscored, 39 to 22. Worst results on the team.

Keep in mind that this discussion started with me saying I'd rather have Boone Jenner centering ahead of Cole Sillinger. Given the above results, is it really too much to ask?

What’s there to figure out exactly ? The front office believes in playing centers as centers .. Sillinger like Fantilli earlier in the year hasn’t had the best line mates all season and should definitely be ahead of Dell Bell at this point . Evason and Waddell see Boone and his size as a wing .. Could it change as the season progresses sure… However we heard the same comments about Fantilli all year , and turns out Evason and Waddell knew what they were doing . Porty said recently the front office is thrilled were Sillinger is in his development . Sillinger has 27 points in 51 games .. Boone last yr had 35 points in 58 games ..

Oh you put centers at center, what an idea!

And it just so happens that they are the young recently drafted guys that you dream about saving us at center, your shiny new baubles and not that old unskilled retread Boone Jenner. Nevermind that the kids don't know how to win a faceoff or manage the puck on the breakout. You put centers at center! Genius!

You're also declaring victory on Fantilli at center as if all he ever had to do was score points to prove that he belonged at center. The argument has nothing to do with points - with his skillset he obviously can score a f***ton of points whether you put him at center, left wing, right wing, defense. The discussion is about whether he's driving play and doing center duties correctly. Like I'm pretty sure Fantilli would score a bazillion points if he was on the wing next to Monahan and Marchenko. Would that prove that he should be a winger?

**(The answer: The points wouldn't prove that, no. But better playdriving results would, and Fantilli had his best game of the year in terms of playdriving in his one game next to Monahan)**

 

[GoJackets1]

The advanced stats around Sillinger are very interesting to me. His first two years and especially last year (obviously), I noticed him in a bad way very frequently. This year, he passes the eye test to me a lot more, but the GA stats are still pretty bad. I still don't fully know what to make of him. I also agree he's not about to pop offensively, but I still think he can become a very useful player.

 

[Xoggz22]

Keep in mind that this discussion started with me saying I'd rather have Boone Jenner centering ahead of Cole Sillinger. Given the above results, is it really too much to ask?

I have not issue with Boone at Center above Sillinger. I only take umbrage with the thought he's making the team worse. I mean if Evason is willing to put Severson in the press box for a few mistakes (granted big ones, but overall I believe this numbers suggest/support he's good more than bad), why wouldn't he do that with Sillinger? That's my only point. I'm not saying he's a top 6 play driver, going to score 70pts, etc. I'm simply saying he gets talked about, I believe (and if I'm incorrect in my thinking I have no issue with being corrected), like he's making plays like Severson and should be dropped in the lineup or benched because of it. Ideally, I think he's a 3C (plus 3C with 2C potential) that seems to be a 40-50pt guy and he's still only 21.

I think the microscope on him is different from you and others and only based on statistics where my point is there is clearly something in the coaching community (or even NHL community) that seems to place him higher. It's disproportionate in my view. That's all.

 

[Crede777]

I have not issue with Boone at Center above Sillinger. I only take umbrage with the thought he's making the team worse. I mean if Evason is willing to put Severson in the press box for a few mistakes (granted big ones, but overall I believe this numbers suggest/support he's good more than bad), why wouldn't he do that with Sillinger? That's my only point. I'm not saying he's a top 6 play driver, going to score 70pts, etc. I'm simply saying he gets talked about, I believe (and if I'm incorrect in my thinking I have no issue with being corrected), like he's making plays like Severson and should be dropped in the lineup or benched because of it. Ideally, I think he's a 3C (plus 3C with 2C potential) that seems to be a 40-50pt guy and he's still only 21.

I think the microscope on him is different from you and others and only based on statistics where my point is there is clearly something in the coaching community (or even NHL community) that seems to place him higher. It's disproportionate in my view. That's all.

I may be off the mark but Severson and Sillinger are not comparable situations. Severson tends to have a bunch of good shifts that are then dragged down by one or two really bad ones. Sillinger meanwhile tends to consistently hover between passable and bad. I wouldn't say that Sillinger has as many glaringly bad shifts as Severson, but just that passing the puck to Sillinger tends to be on average a low percentage play.

 

[CBJWerenski8]

Who

 

[majormajor]

I have not issue with Boone at Center above Sillinger. I only take umbrage with the thought he's making the team worse.

You take umbrage with the team results with Sillinger on and off the ice? If the results are that the team is better off with him on the bench, you take umbrage with me sharing those results?

 

[S1N4TR4]

u

Who

last played in the NHL on March 28, 2017

that was 2,886 days ago.

wild.

 

[koteka]

Who said anything about writing players off? I said I don't think he's about to pop, speaking about the next game.

I have seen people call a few of the top 2021 picks busts. These kids are still 21 and 22 and had their development significantly impacted by COVID. Some of them might turn out to be busts, but I am going to wait and see.

 

[Double-Shift Lasse]

u


last played in the NHL on March 28, 2017

that was 2,886 days ago.

wild.

With Minnesota you say?

 

[CBJx614]

Who

Something fishy going on...

 

[VT]

Who

I think it's because of the training. There are a lot of injuries, but Cleveland is playing right now and needs LDBB, Malatesta, O. Sillinger and Pyyhtiä on the team.

 

[VT]

Btw, interesting



And Dima Voronkov

 

[TingleBiscuit]

A lot of Sillinger shade from people not acknowledging that he's taking some of the most unfavorable forward assignments w/r/t d-zone starts.

Guy plays tough minutes and advanced stats still struggle to compensate for (un)sheltered play. The guy is a young, better Boone Jenner, and just like Fantilli people don't appreciate that he's being coached, at 21, to fully develop his 200ft game. The difference is that Fantilli got called up to 1C for a stretch midway through his education in the same, and Silly probably never will.

A lot of crow will be eaten in 2-3 years when this 21-year-old's prime actually starts. He's still younger than most players are when they even step foot on the ice, and he's already chalked 271 games. Most of which were played when we were utter dogsh*t.

He's going to be an absolute monster in his prime. He won't ever score 80-100pts, but he'll be more valuable than Mitch Marner when it really counts. Mark it.

 

[stevo61]

A lot of Sillinger shade from people not acknowledging that he's taking some of the most unfavorable forward assignments w/r/t d-zone starts.

Guy plays tough minutes and advanced stats still struggle to compensate for (un)sheltered play. The guy is a young, better Boone Jenner, and just like Fantilli people don't appreciate that he's being coached, at 21, to fully develop his 200ft game. The difference is that Fantilli got called up to 1C for a stretch midway through his education in the same, and Silly probably never will.

A lot of crow will be eaten in 2-3 years when this 21-year-old's prime actually starts. He's still younger than most players are when they even step foot on the ice, and he's already chalked 271 games. Most of which were played when we were utter dogsh*t.

He's going to be an absolute monster in his prime. He won't ever score 80-100pts, but he'll be more valuable than Mitch Marner when it really counts. Mark it.

Absolutely no crow will be eaten because we are talking about right now and not 2-3 years in the future. Most of this is completely irrelevant to the discussion

 

[ViD]

Incredible numbers on Voronkov but he’s exactly that, a complimentary winger, he was really struggling without Monahan and Marchenko

 

[S1N4TR4]

A lot of Sillinger shade from people not acknowledging that he's taking some of the most unfavorable forward assignments w/r/t d-zone starts.

Guy plays tough minutes and advanced stats still struggle to compensate for (un)sheltered play. The guy is a young, better Boone Jenner, and just like Fantilli people don't appreciate that he's being coached, at 21, to fully develop his 200ft game. The difference is that Fantilli got called up to 1C for a stretch midway through his education in the same, and Silly probably never will.

A lot of crow will be eaten in 2-3 years when this 21-year-old's prime actually starts. He's still younger than most players are when they even step foot on the ice, and he's already chalked 271 games. Most of which were played when we were utter dogsh*t.

He's going to be an absolute monster in his prime. He won't ever score 80-100pts, but he'll be more valuable than Mitch Marner when it really counts. Mark it.

I agreed with everything up until “a better boone jenner”

 

[majormajor]

Virtually everything in @TingleBiscuit 's post is straight up false. The guy is probably just drunk after the game talking out of his ass.

A lot of Sillinger shade from people not acknowledging that he's taking some of the most unfavorable forward assignments w/r/t d-zone starts.

His zone starts actually skew offensive. He has fewer D-zone starts than offensive zone starts.

Guy plays tough minutes and advanced stats still struggle to compensate for (un)sheltered play. The guy is a young, better Boone Jenner,

Boone Jenner stepped into the NHL straight from junior in his 20 year old season and was a beast. He got solid playdriving results and team goal results immediately. We're still waiting on Cole to get to the level that Boone started out on. Maybe he'll get there, but he's not better now, not even close.

and just like Fantilli people don't appreciate that he's being coached, at 21, to fully develop his 200ft game. The difference is that Fantilli got called up to 1C for a stretch midway through his education in the same, and Silly probably never will.

Those two are completely different caliber of players.

He's going to be an absolute monster in his prime. He won't ever score 80-100pts, but he'll be more valuable than Mitch Marner when it really counts. Mark it.

Was it the beer or the liquor?

 

[TingleBiscuit]

I agreed with everything up until “a better boone jenner”

I understand it may be a warm take, and the last thing I want to do is get into a debate that involves discussing two players I like a lot. It's a "silly" debate to have, bad pun intended.

He's got a long way to go in his career, and it's literally impossible to arc the next decade, but when I compare them at the same respective age:

Weighted by games played in their respective age years:
Cole was better by every metric at age 20 except +/- and 0.4% worse FO, while taking 940 more faceoffs in less average time on ice. Twice as many blocked shots. More takeaways, less giveaways. Did it while playing on a far worse team (CBJ was a playoff team this year for Boone), and without PP time.

He's been better by every metric except FO% at 21. Boone barely played this season, so it's hard to measure, but Silly is on an arc for a better +/- weighted by games played. Much tougher assignments.

Natural leader, sooner. This may be due to being thrust into a larger role at a younger age, but it's the reality, and these sorts of things tend to snowball.

Twice as many games played by this age.

He's developing puck tipping skills earlier - remember that crazy shovel deflect last year?

He's got a better innate shot power, a much more dynamic shot, and plenty of runway to fine tune his accuracy, at which time he'll be even more lethal. More runway to develop his skating, which has already improved.

He's only 1lb lighter than Boone's full adult weight at ten years younger. Stronger at same age by a lot.

Much better wall game at the same age.

---

I completely understand disagreeing with me. He may never be as good at faceoffs, but in him I see a player with all the tools to otherwise be significantly better, overall.

Again, I am not trying to say there's anything wrong with anyone- I love both of these guys. I respect your opinion, but that was my rationale for my hot take.

 

[TingleBiscuit]

Virtually everything in @TingleBiscuit 's post is straight up false. The guy is probably just drunk after the game talking out of his ass.

Guilty as charged.

Boone Jenner stepped into the NHL straight from junior in his 20 year old season and was a beast. He got solid playdriving results and team goal results immediately. We're still waiting on Cole to get to the level that Boone started out on. Maybe he'll get there, but he's not better now, not even close.

Actually compare their stats for these years, then come back. I hope I don't need to remind you that Cole stepped into NHL straight from draft in his 18 year old season and also was a beast. He'd played 143 games by the age Boone played his first.

Those two are completely different caliber of players.

Thank you, Captain Obvious. We can compare different caliber of players when it comes to opportunity to move up the lineup to plug an injury hole. When Sillinger was on a line with an experienced playmaker (Voracek) he had comparable goals scored at age 18 to Boone's 5th best career year, and did it with zero PP time.

Was it the beer or the liquor?

Marner is invisible in the playoffs, where Cole will be a force. I said mark it because we won't know for six years, yet. It'll be totally subjective anyway; see above re: caliber of players.

Beer though

Cheers, boys.

 

[TingleBiscuit]

Absolutely no crow will be eaten because we are talking about right now and not 2-3 years in the future. Most of this is completely irrelevant to the discussion

I hope crow won't be eaten because crow tastes like sh*t. and who the hell actually cares, anyway

My overall point (if I even have one at all) is that he's getting shutdown assignments against a decent number of top lines before most players ever touch NHL ice. It feels (to me, totally subjectively, drunkenly, right now) like a few too many people here are throwing baby DaVinci out of his crib and asking him to paint the Mona Lisa. Kid's barely an adolescent right now compared to who he'll be at prime NHL age, and I think it'd be appropriate to cut him some slack before we label him a problem.

I just want to see the magic happen as this magnificent, budding team of youngsters grow some hair on their chin, and y'all are being mean to one of my boys!

 

[majormajor]

My overall point (if I even have one at all) is that he's getting shutdown assignments against a decent number of top lines before most players ever touch NHL ice.

He's done that in just a few games this year and every time it's happened Jody talks about it endlessly and all the reporters ask the coach about him and the kid gets talked up so much, giving fans the impression that Sillinger is one of our defensive matchup forwards. He isn't. Most games he gets relatively easy matchups.

 

[TingleBiscuit]

He's done that in just a few games this year and every time it's happened Jody talks about it endlessly and all the reporters ask the coach about him and the kid gets talked up so much, giving fans the impression that Sillinger is one of our defensive matchup forwards. He isn't. Most games he gets relatively easy matchups.

You're probably right, my guy. I'm just a drunk old(er than I've ever been) man yelling at clouds right now. I just think it's pretty neat that he might have one of the longest NHL careers of anyone, ever..and it's barely started.

I wish they all had as much time to develop as him! I do agree with everyone that it'd be great if he was truly great, already.

My most important goal was to take a pot shot at Mitch(et) Marner. I felt clever at the time, and mostly just hope someone so Silly proves to be less silly when the bones start crunching than a freakin' skinny Leaf on skates who thinks its a playoff hockey player..

 

[Xoggz22]

You take umbrage with the team results with Sillinger on and off the ice? If the results are that the team is better off with him on the bench, you take umbrage with me sharing those results?

If that's how you read my comment, sure.

I have no issue with you sharing results and my comments have not reflected you sharing results. My comments have been focused on the point that your opinion (and others) does not match the opinion of coaches or many others that discuss Sillinger. So while the statistics presented provide one story, something clearly doesn't match with the coaches opinions. I'm moving on now.

 

[Napoli]

A lot of Sillinger shade from people not acknowledging that he's taking some of the most unfavorable forward assignments w/r/t d-zone starts.

Guy plays tough minutes and advanced stats still struggle to compensate for (un)sheltered play. The guy is a young, better Boone Jenner, and just like Fantilli people don't appreciate that he's being coached, at 21, to fully develop his 200ft game. The difference is that Fantilli got called up to 1C for a stretch midway through his education in the same, and Silly probably never will.

A lot of crow will be eaten in 2-3 years when this 21-year-old's prime actually starts. He's still younger than most players are when they even step foot on the ice, and he's already chalked 271 games. Most of which were played when we were utter dogsh*t.

He's going to be an absolute monster in his prime. He won't ever score 80-100pts, but he'll be more valuable than Mitch Marner when it really counts. Mark it.

For Cole to actually start to be effective he needs to find some finishing. It's actually hilarious how bad he is with the puck on his stick and an open net. For me that's the biggest concern as he's gotten faster and is able to relatively keep up. It's still very far from great.

If he can improve his skating and scoring ability, kind of important areas I'd say, then maybe we can speak about a potential Jenner like career. Right now he's young with potential and has clear and obvious flaws to his game that I doubt will ever be fixed to become a serious player.