CBJ Board Summer '16 Prospect Rankings: #2
- Thread starter Samkow
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It is about the role someone plays for a team. And for what kind of a team.
In his rookie SM-liiga season play-offs Nutivaara carried heavy duty when everything else failed. Kärpät won the league and key player Donskoi for example from that team was off to San Jose Sharks.
Last season, in his second SM-liiga campaign, in one of Europe's most competitive teams Nutivaara played a better season than any other Jarmo Kekäläinen drafted players have managed to do so far.
Time works both ways.
In his rookie SM-liiga season play-offs Nutivaara carried heavy duty when everything else failed. Kärpät won the league and key player Donskoi for example from that team was off to San Jose Sharks.
Last season, in his second SM-liiga campaign, in one of Europe's most competitive teams Nutivaara played a better season than any other Jarmo Kekäläinen drafted players have managed to do so far.
Time works both ways.
Even if he didn't have the amazing 1/2 year at center, we'd still have a guy who just put up 99 pts in 62 games in his 17 year old season. Not saying this is you, but a lot of folks have it in their minds that Dubois' selection comes despite his lack of offence - that's not the case.
Xoggz22
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CBJWerenski8
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I just saw posts that said Bjorkstrand could score 40 points next year, and have his name in for rookie of the year...and he MIGHT be our 3rd best prospect? You guys are either delusional or REALLY confident in Werenski/Dubois and whoever else (if anyone) gets picked over him.
Double-Shift Lasse
Just post better
One person one vote, man. Someone thinking he could be ROY counts the same as someone who didn't post on the "how many goals" topic at all. Who the hell is "you guys" then?
CBJWerenski8
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I guess I should have said "those people" instead.
I understand, I just don't agree and would like to discuss with those people (if they chose PLD or Korpi over Bjork in this poll, if they didn't I just wasted everyones time) why.
Karpat's average age in their championship year was 25.88, compared to 25.26 for Lake Erie. It's hardly a league of men vs. a league of boys. If you're going to claim Karpat's success means more than Lake Erie's, you're going to have to do better than that. Otherwise, you'd better have Sedlak as a top ten prospect as well.
EspenK raised the same point you did, and I think it might be just two different ways of gauging prospects. I think it's the age difference that we're factoring in differently.
If I was to put point projections for Dubois and Bjorkstrand side-by-side (obviously rough guesses)
Age --- Dubois --- Bjorkstrand
18 ------- 30 -------- 0
19 ------- 40 -------- 0
20 ------- 45 -------- 0
21 ------- 50 -------- 40
22 ------- 55 -------- 45
23 ------- 60 -------- 50
24 ------- 65 -------- 55
25 ------- 65 -------- 55
26 ------- 65 -------- 55
27 ------- 65 -------- 55
So, yes it would be great and unsurprising to me if Bjorkstrand scores 25G, 15A next year, and that'll be more than Dubois can put up. But by the time Dubois is Bjorkstrand's age, I expect he'll be better than that.
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Double-Shift Lasse
Just post better
So you're calling out anyone who said Bjork could score a buncha goals and/or be ROY but who also voted for Werenski and/or Dubois ahead of him in these rankings? You could actually find out whether there is anyone who fits the description by clicking on one of the numbers above to see who voted for whom (and in the #1 thread, too), and compare it to the sub-thread on Bjork's upcoming season projection.
Age doesn't matter so much as professional status. And Kärpät attracts proven professionals like a top level elite organization in Europe since it is a free market, no communism mindset over here, after all.
Still there were for example in Kärpät defensive line-up six (6!) over 30-year-old highly accomplished defenders in the European game while Nutivaara was turning 21 after that play-off spring. Being absolutely the youngest defender of the team.
You can talk up Nuti all you want but using the strength of Liiga and its teams as your argument is silly (fitting with you). We've seen many times second line AHLers go over to Liiga and be among the league leaders in scoring. Hannikainen was just one of the top players on his Liiga team and came over to become a third liner for Lake Erie. You can't argue that Liiga is the vastly better league. It's close to equal at best.
You have moved past taking Dubois over Puljujarvi and you prove it in each and every post.
Hännikäinen is completely different prospect first of all. I wouldn't rule out NHL minutes in the future.
But to say JYP (no smoking team from the Athens of Finland) and Kärpät are in the same 'league' is completely against the European reality which isn't equality and fraternity but liberty! The quality of inside the team competition is off the roofs in Kärpät in European scale, while JYP is mediocre at best. Kärpät is in a different league when compared to SM-liiga, Lake Erie Monsters and JYP.
In the same career phase Hännikäinen had to leave Jokerit (which is far more comparable to Marjamäki's Kärpät in draw and resources available but not as highly valued on the global rankings even as a KHL team now) in search of minutes.
You people haven't heard of playbooks. You do not understand European ice hockey pyramid. You do not understand Nutivaara.
CBJWerenski8
Rest in Peace Johnny
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You have moved past taking Dubois over Puljujarvi and you prove it in each and every post.
I have. It's over. I feel its a mistake and until proven otherwise from both players I will continue that belief. But, I am still waiting for answers to questions I asked to that poster from the draft. And will continue to fish.
I understand you hesitancy. I was fully on board with Puljujarvi, but I feel like Jarmo deserves the benefit of the doubt in this case. Dubois is an elite prospect and will be compared to Puljujarvi for a long time. It is impacting rational thought on your part and I hope you can get past it. Dubois is going to be a beast in this league.
JYP finished fourth in the regular season each of the last two years. But yeah, they're "not in the same league" as the team that finished two or three spots above them. Because the leading one thinks so, I guess.
Add Carlsson, I guess.
Also, the fact that Oliver Bjorkstrand is the Jackets' #3 prospect speaks more to the team having three genuinely special talents than any weaknesses on Bjorkstrand's part. As does Dubois at #2.
Also, the fact that Oliver Bjorkstrand is the Jackets' #3 prospect speaks more to the team having three genuinely special talents than any weaknesses on Bjorkstrand's part. As does Dubois at #2.
Because the level of Kärpät organization under Marjamäki's leadership was on a completely different level. Head coach Marjamäki by the way went from Espoon Blues to Oulun Kärpät and is now at the helm of Finnish national team with his favoured style of play, the renegade option still in Finnish ice hockey despite 'our game' landing World championship, two U-20 World championships, KHL championship and multiple SM-liiga championships so far on this decade.
If you have offer on the table from both JYP and Kärpät which do you choose? Now, ask the same question again 25 times. Perhaps you now realize how the difference is made besides Marjamäki's playbook being the thread which makes the needles weave on the ice.
CBJWerenski8
Rest in Peace Johnny
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I hope you're right. I am hesitant to believe you (and the many others with that opinion) but I am hopeful I am wrong.
How many people like Toews over Kane? Or Bergeron over some of the higher scoring players? Bjorkstrand should be a great goal scorer but Dubois should be a point producer and being a big guy who should play center has an opportunity to have a bigger overall impact on the game. People are liking him as a similar style to Benn, if he becomes anything close to Benn then how many guys would you take over him?
Before people start saying anything about the unlikely hood of him becoming Benn or how many people actually turn out that way just remember that Benn wasn't even supposed to be Benn and was a 5th rounder. I dont think Dubois will be the same goalscorer but he has the physical tools, work ethic and skills to be a really good NHLer in a similar mold
Before people start saying anything about the unlikely hood of him becoming Benn or how many people actually turn out that way just remember that Benn wasn't even supposed to be Benn and was a 5th rounder. I dont think Dubois will be the same goalscorer but he has the physical tools, work ethic and skills to be a really good NHLer in a similar mold
SuperGenius
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