OT: Carolina RailHawks to Rebrand, Push for MLS Bid

[Svechhammer]

Yeah, as much as I think Raleigh is a better market for the MLS than Charlotte, having an NFL owner who wants a piece of the MLS pie is a more attractive option.

MLS is placing a premium on having soccer specific stadiums. If the bid comes down to Charlotte in Bank of America Stadium or Raleigh with a soccer specific stadium built for MLS, it'll go to Raleigh. MLS doesn't want to share venues, they want to be the primary tenant. Atlanta is a little different because that stadium was specifically built with both football and soccer in mind, so it was still attractive, especially given location.

Plus, this also ignores how big Malik himself is within both MLS and the US Soccer Foundation. His name actually means something in the circles of people who would be making this decision.

 

[garnetpalmetto]

Yeah but who will the South Carolinians root for?

This particular one, who hates soccer with a burning passion, would root for "giant meteor."

 

[MinJaBen]

Giant Meteor FC

 

[Chrispy]

Giant Meteor FC

Seems more like a Real Meteor Gigante to me.

 

[Hulkacaniac]

So is this like an embezzlement or money laundering scheme?

 

[DaveG]

Giant Meteor FC

meteor united

 

[Elsker]

So is this like an embezzlement or money laundering scheme?

Kinda. Located within a newly-formed Opportunity Zone with deferred capital gains on investment of profits from other enterprises, plus tax abatement incentives.

 

[HisIceness]

Carolina TopGolf FC United sponsored by Giant Meteor Inc.

 

[Canes]

Just name them Atlanta United's Bitches

 

[Navin R Slavin]

Shoelaces Untied FC

 

[HisIceness]

MLS is placing a premium on having soccer specific stadiums. If the bid comes down to Charlotte in Bank of America Stadium or Raleigh with a soccer specific stadium built for MLS, it'll go to Raleigh. MLS doesn't want to share venues, they want to be the primary tenant. Atlanta is a little different because that stadium was specifically built with both football and soccer in mind, so it was still attractive, especially given location.

Plus, this also ignores how big Malik himself is within both MLS and the US Soccer Foundation. His name actually means something in the circles of people who would be making this decision.

Forgot to respond to this but I believe the plan is to have the Charlotte team play a year or two at BofA stadium while Memorial Stadium gets a major overhaul to a Soccer-style stadium. At least that was the idea that the Bruton Smith group put together when they made their bid.

 

[CandyCanes]

https://www.visitdowntownsouth.com/

Here's the first look at the proposed $1.9 billion soccer/community development , they are labeling it as "Downtown Raleigh South".

 

[tarheelhockey]

Yeah I’m not crazy about that location. It’ll be good from an event/traffic standpoint, but I wouldn’t call it “downtown” at all and if anything will just contribute to decentralized sprawl in a new direction. It’s basically PNC South, except for the part where it’s nowhere near the Triangle’s population center.

 

[garnetpalmetto]

Yeah I’m not crazy about that location. It’ll be good from an event/traffic standpoint, but I wouldn’t call it “downtown” at all and if anything will just contribute to decentralized sprawl in a new direction. It’s basically PNC South, except for the part where it’s nowhere near the Triangle’s population center.

To be fair there's already sprawl in that direction, THH. A pretty decently sized townhome community off of Chapanoke/Ileagnes/Tryon plus that drag of drive-throughs and strip malls and other assorted stuff from 40 all the way to Garner. Not really a new sprawl direction but an older direction that's getting a little in need of revitalization.

 

[CandyCanes]

Yeah I’m not crazy about that location. It’ll be good from an event/traffic standpoint, but I wouldn’t call it “downtown” at all and if anything will just contribute to decentralized sprawl in a new direction. It’s basically PNC South, except for the part where it’s nowhere near the Triangle’s population center.

Not a big fan either. Basically another North Hills, but with a stadium.

 

[tarheelhockey]

To be fair there's already sprawl in that direction, THH. A pretty decently sized townhome community off of Chapanoke/Ileagnes/Tryon plus that drag of drive-throughs and strip malls and other assorted stuff from 40 all the way to Garner. Not really a new sprawl direction but an older direction that's getting a little in need of revitalization.

I’m thinking something more like Atlanta-style sprawl where high density development pops up on the edges of town rather than concentrating in the middle. This isn’t quite like having skyscrapers in Holly Springs, but it’s an intermediate step in that direction.

PNC is one thing because it was never really intended to be the center of a full-on urban district. It was simply placed at the center of gravity and left alone. This new plan looks like something that will substantially draw amenities away from downtown and push development further out to places like Garner and Fuquay. I’m not a fan of that style of development.

 

[garnetpalmetto]

I’m thinking something more like Atlanta-style sprawl where high density development pops up on the edges of town rather than concentrating in the middle. This isn’t quite like having skyscrapers in Holly Springs, but it’s an intermediate step in that direction.

PNC is one thing because it was never really intended to be the center of a full-on urban district. It was simply placed at the center of gravity and left alone. This new plan looks like something that will substantially draw amenities away from downtown and push development further out to places like Garner and Fuquay. I’m not a fan of that style of development.

I understand what you mean now - at first I thought you were talking about sprawl in a relatively undeveloped area rather than high-density sprawl - my apologies for misunderstanding you. At the same time I think it's an inevitability as the Triangle grows - as I see it now (and mind you I'm not an urban planner of any sort, but I've stayed in a Holiday Inn Express a couple times) the Triangle has a few nodes of mid-to-high density development with strands of lower-density development connecting them. At some point you have to expect that high density development will begin filling in along those nodes. I doubt you'll see skyscrapers in Fuquay any time soon but I could see a few high-density developments sprouting up along 401.

By my estimate the area they're talking about this development is about 2 miles from downtown and, again, getting a little distressed from the times I've driven through it. That seems like the prime sort of area to build a high-density development. Heck, look at North Hills - that's another development Kane masterminded and that's easily double the distance from the downtown core.

 

[LostInaLostWorld]

I’m thinking something more like Atlanta-style sprawl where high density development pops up on the edges of town rather than concentrating in the middle. This isn’t quite like having skyscrapers in Holly Springs, but it’s an intermediate step in that direction.

PNC is one thing because it was never really intended to be the center of a full-on urban district. It was simply placed at the center of gravity and left alone. This new plan looks like something that will substantially draw amenities away from downtown and push development further out to places like Garner and Fuquay. I’m not a fan of that style of development.

This.

And I don't want any public money going into it. If it's such a great thing let both those guys gamble their own (and others) $ on it. This area is enough of an economic growth engine as it is. Don't throw that economic/job return BS at me.

 

[tarheelhockey]

I understand what you mean now - at first I thought you were talking about sprawl in a relatively undeveloped area rather than high-density sprawl - my apologies for misunderstanding you. At the same time I think it's an inevitability as the Triangle grows - as I see it now (and mind you I'm not an urban planner of any sort, but I've stayed in a Holiday Inn Express a couple times) the Triangle has a few nodes of mid-to-high density development with strands of lower-density development connecting them. At some point you have to expect that high density development will begin filling in along those nodes. I doubt you'll see skyscrapers in Fuquay any time soon but I could see a few high-density developments sprouting up along 401.

By my estimate the area they're talking about this development is about 2 miles from downtown and, again, getting a little distressed from the times I've driven through it. That seems like the prime sort of area to build a high-density development.Heck, look at North Hills - that's another development Kane masterminded and that's easily double the distance from the downtown core.

Yep, the North Hills comparison seems very relevant here. Especially with the Kane connection. This is basically the same thing, located on an interior highway instead of a beltway, and anchored with a stadium.

The Triangle’s node-i-ness is probably its biggest strength due to the preponderance of long-established towns scattered all over the place. North Hills and this new idea are a bit more typical of how cities this size usually develop. It’s just not a development philosophy I care for, unless it’s supported by a serious commitment to urban connectivity (which this is really not).

 

[garnetpalmetto]

Yep, the North Hills comparison seems very relevant here. Especially with the Kane connection. This is basically the same thing, located on an interior highway instead of a beltway, and anchored with a stadium.

The Triangle’s node-i-ness is probably its biggest strength due to the preponderance of long-established towns scattered all over the place. North Hills and this new idea are a bit more typical of how cities this size usually develop. It’s just not a development philosophy I care for, unless it’s supported by a serious commitment to urban connectivity (which this is really not).

Concurred 100% here - the Triangle *really* needs to not screw up transit any further than it already has with the death of the Durham-Orange Light Rail project.

 

[Navin R Slavin]

I’m thinking something more like Atlanta-style sprawl where high density development pops up on the edges of town rather than concentrating in the middle. This isn’t quite like having skyscrapers in Holly Springs, but it’s an intermediate step in that direction.

PNC is one thing because it was never really intended to be the center of a full-on urban district. It was simply placed at the center of gravity and left alone. This new plan looks like something that will substantially draw amenities away from downtown and push development further out to places like Garner and Fuquay. I’m not a fan of that style of development.

Nah. That's definitely close enough to downtown where things like scooters and circulators will actually be of benefit. Not really that much difference between this and, say, Glenwood South or Cameron Village from a distance perspective. And there will obviously be a big push for infill between this area and downtown proper.

 

[tarheelhockey]

Nah. That's definitely close enough to downtown where things like scooters and circulators will actually be of benefit. Not really that much difference between this and, say, Glenwood South or Cameron Village from a distance perspective. And there will obviously be a big push for infill between this area and downtown proper.

I’d love to be wrong.

But my vibe is that Malik is good with putting shovels in the ground tomorrow as long as he gets that public cash. Meanwhile there is no MLS bid, there is no transit plan, and the idea for revitalizing the rest of the south side is in the “visioning” stage with no actual public or private investment. So on a practical level, this project would be plunked 2 miles out from downtown with the hope that the rest fills in, with undefined future planning and funding.

For geographic reference, this development would be about the same distance from the Capitol building as Five Points. But it would be on the historically industrial south side, not the historically upscale north side. Which means nobody is realistically going to bike or scooter that corridor without a massive overhaul of the physical infrastructure over 2 miles. It could be 20 years or more before that kind of connectivity develops, if ever. In the meantime, this will be a district that’s built primarily around events, hotels, and office space. That means car traffic, not foot traffic.

Look at North Hills, which was built on the same principles. Other than people who physically live in North Hills, nobody walks or bikes there. You drive, park, stroll around, and drive back out. And very few people are going to do that AND go downtown the same day. If they show up in North Hills, it’s because they chose that destination instead of downtown or Glenwood. That’s what this new district would be like for the foreseeable future.

I want this to be another Glenwood as much as the next guy. Know what made Glenwood what it is today? A streetcar line down the middle of the street, physically connecting that neighborhood to downtown. The urban connectivity came first, and then the dense corridor of development. Malik is trying to sell the public on the idea that the development can come before the connectivity. I don’t believe it can work that way, because cities of people don’t collectively behave that way.

 

[Navin R Slavin]

I’d love to be wrong.

But my vibe is that Malik is good with putting shovels in the ground tomorrow as long as he gets that public cash. Meanwhile there is no MLS bid, there is no transit plan, and the idea for revitalizing the rest of the south side is in the “visioning” stage with no actual public or private investment. So on a practical level, this project would be plunked 2 miles out from downtown with the hope that the rest fills in, with undefined future planning and funding.

For geographic reference, this development would be about the same distance from the Capitol building as Five Points. But it would be on the historically industrial south side, not the historically upscale north side. Which means nobody is realistically going to bike or scooter that corridor without a massive overhaul of the physical infrastructure over 2 miles. It could be 20 years or more before that kind of connectivity develops, if ever. In the meantime, this will be a district that’s built primarily around events, hotels, and office space. That means car traffic, not foot traffic.

Look at North Hills, which was built on the same principles. Other than people who physically live in North Hills, nobody walks or bikes there. You drive, park, stroll around, and drive back out. And very few people are going to do that AND go downtown the same day. If they show up in North Hills, it’s because they chose that destination instead of downtown or Glenwood. That’s what this new district would be like for the foreseeable future.

I want this to be another Glenwood as much as the next guy. Know what made Glenwood what it is today? A streetcar line down the middle of the street, physically connecting that neighborhood to downtown. The urban connectivity came first, and then the dense corridor of development. Malik is trying to sell the public on the idea that the development can come before the connectivity. I don’t believe it can work that way, because cities of people don’t collectively behave that way.

People need to get on some damned busses. We've turned a perfectly viable means of transit into a thing that's only for poor people. But that's a rant for another time.

 

[tarheelhockey]

People need to get on some damned busses. We've turned a perfectly viable means of transit into a thing that's only for poor people. But that's a rant for another time.

I couldn’t agree more.

 

[garnetpalmetto]

Nah. That's definitely close enough to downtown where things like scooters and circulators will actually be of benefit. Not really that much difference between this and, say, Glenwood South or Cameron Village from a distance perspective. And there will obviously be a big push for infill between this area and downtown proper.

The mental image of a fleet of scooters dodging traffic on 401 just warmed the cockles of my dark heart...