Confirmed with Link: Carolina Hurricanes Sale - He Dundon it.

[A Star is Burns]

It could be A LOT worse. We could look like Detroit or Buffalo with no clear road map to success, and no more appealing of a market to play in.

I'd say we've done about a 75% good job in this rebuild. We've missed out on the two most critical pieces of the roster -- goaltender, and Superstud Franchise Player. Everything else has fallen into place, more or less. A little bit of good luck would offset our bad luck, overnight. Can't say that about some other teams.

The context of their current situations and direction may look worse, but one team got a franchise center, and that will always breed a certain amount of we're almost there with a few more pieces.

The other team came off 20+ years of making the playoffs or whatever and has only missed 2 years at this point. They can also hang their hat on the original 6 component and what comes from that. They may be super spoiled, and they need to figure their direction out, but they are nowhere close to being in our situation.

To me, being in an unstable market, having missed for 9 years, and not having gotten a franchise player, puts us at the absolute bottom of the barrel.

 

[tarheelhockey]

The context of their current situations and direction may look worse, but one team got a franchise center, and that will always breed a certain amount of we're almost there with a few more pieces.

The other team came off 20+ years of making the playoffs or whatever and has only missed 2 years at this point. They can also hang their hat on the original 6 component and what comes from that. They may be super spoiled, and they need to figure their direction out, but they are nowhere close to being in our situation.

To me, being in an unstable market, having missed for 9 years, and not having gotten a franchise player, puts us at the absolute bottom of the barrel.

I hear you, and I do agree we’re pretty close to the bottom as a UFA destination. I was talking more in terms of team building. Buffalo might be a couple of pieces away, but it’s looking more like 5 years at the pace they’re moving. Detroit is facing a full strip down and rebuild, like us 4 years ago.

If nothing else, we’re in a less soul sucking place than Arizona. Their playoff years are a distant memory and at this point draft picks must be starting to seem pretty meaningless.

 

[Boom Boom Apathy]

Depends what you are talking about. If you are talking about attendance, then sure, we are clearly at the bottom of the barrel, along with AZ, FL, NYI. If you are talking about close to being competitive, no, the Canes are not at the bottom of the barrel compared to those other teams.

Either way, BOTH can still get worse than they are right now. Put an even crappier product on the ice and miss the playoffs for another 2 years, and attendance can get worse. Make the wrong moves and the team could be even less competitive and further away.

I don't expect either of those to happen though (as I said earlier). I think Francis did a decent job of building up assets within the organization which is something we haven't had in ages. Now a few moves are needed (goalie and scoring) and this team can be a playoff team. They won't be easy moves, but still very possible.

If we continue to be one of the lowest salary teams in the league though, we are likely going to remain sub-mediocre.

 

[A Star is Burns]

I hear you, and I do agree we’re pretty close to the bottom as a UFA destination. I was talking more in terms of team building. Buffalo might be a couple of pieces away, but it’s looking more like 5 years at the pace they’re moving. Detroit is facing a full strip down and rebuild, like us 4 years ago.

If nothing else, we’re in a less soul sucking place than Arizona. Their playoff years are a distant memory and at this point draft picks must be starting to seem pretty meaningless.

I think at best, we'd be tied with any of those teams. We didn't get the franchise players, like Arizona, and Detroit to this point. We don't spend, like Arizona. We haven't made the playoffs in forever, like Arizona and Buffalo (though still more recently than us obviously). We aren't a free agent destination, like Arizona and perhaps Detroit and Buffalo at times or going forward. We've now got a front office and coaching staff in disarray (hopefully that works itself out well), which they've all had at some time (I'm counting Detroit for not getting rid of Holland and Blashill at this point). Of course, you can probably throw a team or two like Edmonton, Montreal, and Ottawa in there for a lot of those things.

I like the position we are in, and can put ourselves in, compared to them, but in the meantime, I think we check more of those boxes over the recent past than any team.

 

[A Star is Burns]

Depends what you are talking about. If you are talking about attendance, then sure, we are clearly at the bottom of the barrel, along with AZ, FL, NYI. If you are talking about close to being competitive, no, the Canes are not at the bottom of the barrel compared to those other teams.

Either way, BOTH can still get worse than they are right now. Put an even crappier product on the ice and miss the playoffs for another 2 years, and attendance can get worse. Make the wrong moves and the team could be even less competitive and further away.

I don't expect either of those to happen though (as I said earlier). I think Francis did a decent job of building up assets within the organization which is something we haven't had in ages. Now a few moves are needed (goalie and scoring) and this team can be a playoff team. They won't be easy moves, but still very possible.

If we continue to be one of the lowest salary teams in the league though, we are likely going to remain sub-mediocre.

Attendance can get worse, but it's been bottom of the barrel outside of maybe the Islanders (mostly because of those promotions boosted us out of last place that we were in much of the year) that moved to a place where no one cares in a building that's not suitable for hockey. So that's relative. As I said in the post you probably hadn't seen yet, I like where we're at, and I believe in where we're going compared to some of those teams. But based on recent history, I'd argue we've been the worst in the most areas. I still feel confident we're headed in the right direction, even with some of the question marks we've gotten since Dundon took over.

 

[Finlandia WOAT]

It could be A LOT worse. We could look like Detroit or Buffalo with no clear road map to success, and no more appealing of a market to play in.

.

Buffalo and Detroit have a buuch of overpaid crap on their rosters. Mediocre guys getting fa value deals. And they're reaching the point where they either blow it all up or overpay their decent, not great, players currently on elc/rfa deals to remain there long term. Committ to mediocrity or take your chances in a rebuild.

Francis did a remarkable job avoiding overpaying mediocre guys. Faulk, Skinner, soon to be Slavin, Pesce, all played on more than fair deals. Worst contracts are darling and rask, and that's nothing compared to those teams.

idk if buffalo is a "few pieces" away. There offense is bad, their defense is bad, eichel and risto have failed to step up as franchise players, esp risto. imagine hanifin if slavin and pesce hadn't happened.

there is a good argument that the canes are a goalie and a decent center away from playoffs. buffalo ain't, less it's prime hasek.

 

[A Star is Burns]

Buffalo and Detroit have a buuch of overpaid crap on their rosters. Mediocre guys getting fa value deals. And they're reaching the point where they either blow it all up or overpay their decent, not great, players currently on elc/rfa deals to remain there long term. Committ to mediocrity or take your chances in a rebuild.

Francis did a remarkable job avoiding overpaying mediocre guys. Faulk, Skinner, soon to be Slavin, Pesce, all played on more than fair deals. Worst contracts are darling and rask, and that's nothing compared to those teams.

idk if buffalo is a "few pieces" away. There offense is bad, their defense is bad, eichel and risto have failed to step up as franchise players, esp risto. imagine hanifin if slavin and pesce hadn't happened.

there is a good argument that the canes are a goalie and a decent center away from playoffs. buffalo ain't, less it's prime hasek.

Like I said, going forward, I agree. My main point wasn't that Buffalo is a few pieces away, just that a franchise center gives you that optimism. I agree completely on Detroit, but just that they just started being a failure. I do think they could be there for a while too though. Like I've said, recent past, we are the worst overall to me. I'll easily take our future if we get our front office and/or coach in order.

 

[GoldiFox]

Like I said, going forward, I agree. My main point wasn't that Buffalo is a few pieces away, just that a franchise center gives you that optimism. I agree completely on Detroit, but just that they just started being a failure. I do think they could be there for a while too though. Like I've said, recent past, we are the worst overall to me. I'll easily take our future if we get our front office and/or coach in order.

I agree with this. Buffalo having Eichel gives them an edge the Canes may never have. They might actually double-down at the lottery and get Dahlin/Svechnikov which gives them two Superstars. I’d trade rosters with that in a heartbeat.

 

[tarheelhockey]

Honestly, if McDavid were that franchise center I think I'd be OK as a Sabres fan. But Eichel leaves something to be desired as a guy who's in that "he's the man" position. If I'm in their shoes, I'm getting a bit nervous that we've got an Eric Staal type situation developing... a guy who isn't really right for the role, not good enough to completely elevate the situation around him, but just good enough that you can't quite commit to going in any other direction in the foreseeable future. That has potential to be really toxic in the context of tanking for a #1, getting this guy instead, and having nothing else to surround him with.

 

[bluedevil58]

Honestly, if McDavid were that franchise center I think I'd be OK as a Sabres fan. But Eichel leaves something to be desired as a guy who's in that "he's the man" position. If I'm in their shoes, I'm getting a bit nervous that we've got an Eric Staal type situation developing... a guy who isn't really right for the role, not good enough to completely elevate the situation around him, but just good enough that you can't quite commit to going in any other direction in the foreseeable future. That has potential to be really toxic in the context of tanking for a #1, getting this guy instead, and having nothing else to surround him with.

Hanafan for Eric Staal??

 

[Boom Boom Apathy]

As I said in the post you probably hadn't seen yet, I like where we're at, and I believe in where we're going compared to some of those teams. But based on recent history, I'd argue we've been the worst in the most areas. I still feel confident we're headed in the right direction, even with some of the question marks we've gotten since Dundon took over.

I totally disagree. If we had better goaltending, we may be playoff team right now. That can't be said for Buffalo. Even though we failed, the team has been at least somewhat in playoff contention, in the toughest division in the league, the last 2 years. I guess I'm not sure what "most areas" mean, but as far as on ice performance, the Canes have clearly not been worse than a lot of other teams.

I do agree with you in that we are headed in the right direction though and think with a few upgrades, can be competitive.

 

[A Star is Burns]

I totally disagree. If we had better goaltending, we may be playoff team right now. That can't be said for Buffalo. Even though we failed, the team has been at least somewhat in playoff contention, in the toughest division in the league, the last 2 years. I guess I'm not sure what "most areas" mean, but as far as on ice performance, the Canes have clearly not been worse than a lot of other teams.

I do agree with you in that we are headed in the right direction though and think with a few upgrades, can be competitive.

I think I pretty clearly spelled out that the areas that make us an overall sadder franchise in my opinion: lack of budget, lack of playoff appearances, lack of attendance, not being a destination, not being in a position to draft a franchise player, front office/coaching turmoil. I think for the past 9 years, you take all of that, we check every one of those boxes like no other franchise. Again, my point on that was all past related, as I think we have a chance to move past that. In my opinion, longest playoff drought, and second longest drought of all time, should be enough, but all that other stuff puts us on another level. Who cares if we've been more competitive? You're either in, or you're out. And even then, most agree we weren't even out in the right manner the last 9 years.

And, oh the horror of Eichel being another Eric Staal. Staal should have been a very easy franchise player to build around, even with his overblown warts. His play and his leadership were way down the list of reasons we sucked during the latter part of his tenure.

 

[Boom Boom Apathy]

I think I pretty clearly spelled out that the areas that make us an overall sadder franchise in my opinion: lack of budget, lack of playoff appearances, lack of attendance, not being a destination, not being in a position to draft a franchise player, front office/coaching turmoil. I think for the past 9 years, you take all of that, we check every one of those boxes like no other franchise. Again, my point on that was all past related, as I think we have a chance to move past that. In my opinion, longest playoff drought, and second longest drought of all time, should be enough, but all that other stuff puts us on another level. Who cares if we've been more competitive? You're either in, or you're out. And even then, most agree we weren't even out in the right manner the last 9 years.

I think you clearly spelled out what you wanted to clearly spelled out.

Canes have been closer to the playoffs and IMO, are closer to being a competitive team than Buffalo. What happened 9 years ago is irrelevant, as we are talking about what the teams are right now.

I agree with you though in that I think with Dundon we will continue to get better.

 

[A Star is Burns]

I would hope I spelled out what I wanted to spell out. That's kind of the point of any post. I think there has been a mix of talks about where the franchises are, have been, and are going. There have been mentions in this conversation of big picture franchise topics of the road maps of teams and how the Coyotes were far away from their playoff appearances and UFA destinations. Those are more than just current or one season topics to me.

I just stated my case based on those big picture parts of the conversation that we have been an overall worse franchise than the others mentioned. I don't think I have disagreed that we are closer to competitive. I'm talking about the overall state of the franchises leading up to this point, we've been the worst in my opinion. Competitive means nothing to me when talking about the past or the state of the franchises. We have made the playoffs the longest of any team. That trumps all to me. Going forward, we should be in a better position than those teams if run properly.

 

[Boom Boom Apathy]

I would hope I spelled out what I wanted to spell out. That's kind of the point of any post. I think there has been a mix of talks about where the franchises are, have been, and are going. There have been mentions in this conversation of big picture franchise topics of the road maps of teams and how the Coyotes were far away from their playoff appearances and UFA destinations. Those are more than just current or one season topics to me.

I just stated my case based on those big picture parts of the conversation that we have been an overall worse franchise than the others mentioned. I don't think I have disagreed that we are closer to competitive. I'm talking about the overall state of the franchises leading up to this point, we've been the worst in my opinion. Competitive means nothing to me when talking about the past or the state of the franchises. We have made the playoffs the longest of any team. That trumps all to me. Going forward, we should be in a better position than those teams if run properly.

To me, it's pretty inconsistent to say "we are close to be competitive" and "we've been the worst"

If we've been getting 1,2,3 picks, I'd agree with you, but we haven't.

 

[A Star is Burns]

I think as an overall franchise for the last 9 years, we've been the worst with all the reasons I said stacked up. I'm not talking about straight up standings, but missing the playoffs with all the other factors I mentioned, I think we've been the worst.

I do think we have put pieces in place to take a leap moving forward.

I get why you have trouble with the two viewpoints. In terms of overall franchise success, especially when stacked for 9 years, missing the playoffs is a failure. I don't care how close you are. Being close to the playoffs doesn't matter for past results, just whether you made it or not. But when you are talking about our future, and how close we are or should be to making the playoffs, I don't think we are far off, so how close we are does factor in for the future. That's just how it makes sense to me. Your mileage certainly may vary.

 

[Boom Boom Apathy]

I think as an overall franchise for the last 9 years, we've been the worst with all the reasons I said stacked up. I'm not talking about straight up standings, but missing the playoffs with all the other factors I mentioned, I think we've been the worst.

I do think we have put pieces in place to take a leap moving forward.

I get that, and it's hard to argue that for 9 years, we sucked. But what happened years ago is kind of irrelevant to me when talking about the team right now.

I get why you have trouble with the two how close we are or should be to making the playoffs, I don't thinkviewpoints. In terms of overall franchise success, especially when stacked for 9 years, missing the playoffs is a failure. I don't care how close you are. Being close to the playoffs doesn't matter for past results, just whether you made it or not. But when you are talking about our future, and we are far off, so how close we are does factor in for the future. That's just how it makes sense to me. Your mileage certainly may vary.

Agree. That's my point. Leafs haven't won the cup since 67, but that's totally irrelevant to the team today. We aren't that far off today, which is why I don't think the Canes are "Bottom of he Barrel" right now.[/QUOTE][/QUOTE]

 

[Joe McGrath]

Watching these playoff games, they are far off. Really far off.

 

[bluedevil58]

Watching these playoff games, they are far off. Really far off.

Yeah I know. Lack of skill is obvious.

 

[A Star is Burns]

Watching these playoff games, they are far off. Really far off.

How far away were the Devils and Avs this time last year?

 

[MinJaBen]

How far away were the Devils and Avs this time last year?

Well, the Devils were an injured Taylor Hall, number one overall pick, Will Butcher and Sami Vatanen away. So, we can easily do something like that....

 

[Joe McGrath]

How far away were the Devils and Avs this time last year?

So the Canes have a Taylor Hall or anathan Mackinnon? No? Oh ok then. Those two teams are f***ing garbage without those two next level superstars playing at that level.

And that’s not even including that those two teams have 4 goalies better than anyone on the Canes roster.

 

[tarheelhockey]

So we need to add a likely Hart finalist. No biggie.

 

[A Star is Burns]

Oh, so everyone picked those two to be good teams that would make the playoffs because of the moves they made and having those superstars? No? Oh ok then. They looked far away and I think it's BS to act otherwise.

 

[Joe McGrath]

So we need to add a likely Hart finalist. No biggie.

Or get deeper and more difficult to play against. Or get a goalie who is really good.