CAR DAL Rantanen to DAL Stankoven 1sts to CAR

[Nikishin al Gaib]

I don’t think this is actually what happened, but if it did happen, it would be an incredibly stupid move. Imagine asking ANY player, let alone one traded mid-season with no extension, to walk into a completely new room and “influence change” on Rod ****ing Brind’Amour.

That’s batshit and of course he’d have walked away from it, if that actually happened which it did not.

I never said that, I said we brought in Rantanen to bring out a better offensive attack on the team, but that doesn't mean it goes against anything that Brindy wants to do. Fact of the matter is, when you play the kind of game that Rantanen wants to play, free wheeling in the offensive zone, cycling and being creative with the puck, it very much meshes with the style that Brindy wants with puck possession and wearing down the defense. Rantanen was brought in to make our offensive zone style more free flowing and less station to station passing than it is now, and he apparently wanted no part of it.

That's not saying he doesn't want to play for Brindy, that's saying he didn't want to even try and help bring that kind of play to the team and bring that kind of play out of everyone else. He wasn't willing to listen to anyone suggesting he should, and instead decided to sulk and pout his way out of town.

Terrible leadership from a guy who wants leadership money but apparently is content with being a follower on the ice. Absolutely not the kind of player we want, and the kind of player that will inevitably lead to locker room issues wherever he goes unless he is paired with an alpha dominant player like MacKinnon.

 

[GIN ANTONIC]

I think the thing this highlights the most is how much the Guentzel situation was botched. 8x8 was a perfectly fine deal and coming into next year with the cap increase it would be an absolute steal.

We likely aren't anywhere near this situation had we just kept him. Instead could have traded Necas for a 2C which is what the plan was all along or get the best assets possible and use those towards a C.

 

[tarheelhockey]

I never said that, I said we brought in Rantanen to bring out a better offensive attack on the team, but that doesn't mean it goes against anything that Brindy wants to do. Fact of the matter is, when you play the kind of game that Rantanen wants to play, free wheeling in the offensive zone, cycling and being creative with the puck, it very much meshes with the style that Brindy wants with puck possession and wearing down the defense. Rantanen was brought in to make our offensive zone style more free flowing and less station to station passing than it is now, and he apparently wanted no part of it.

That's not saying he doesn't want to play for Brindy, that's saying he didn't want to even try and help bring that kind of play to the team and bring that kind of play out of everyone else. He wasn't willing to listen to anyone suggesting he should, and instead decided to sulk and pout his way out of town.

Terrible leadership from a guy who wants leadership money but apparently is content with being a follower on the ice. Absolutely not the kind of player we want, and the kind of player that will inevitably lead to locker room issues wherever he goes unless he is paired with an alpha dominant player like MacKinnon.

So he went to Dallas, which is far from a free wheeling team. Immediately committed long term and has doubled his scoring pace there.

It’s not that Rantanen needed to be somewhere that he could run around like Necas, or ride a superstar’s coattails. It’s just a matter of his not wanting to be in a creatively stifling system like ours.

Besides, this is not a guy who was going to change anything structurally about our offense. Look at how he plays — for a star, he’s not particularly artistic about getting his points. He loves the one-timer, he has a heavy wrist shot without moving his feet, he make plays at a rapid speed but he’s not especially fast physically. I’m sure Tulsky looked at him and thought, “here’s a guy who fits our system the same way Necas fits Colorado’s”. But, there’s a big difference between someone thinking you’d succeed in a new role, versus your actually enjoying that role and having a desire to do it long term.

That’s the actual rub with all of this. Tulsky was extremely open about saying that the Necas trade bought him a window to sell Rantanen on a future here. Rantanen heard them out, knowing that he could have the money, the wins, the nice weather and the nice people in any number of places as a UFA. The sticking point was that he couldn’t see himself playing in a system where he would be just another bumper winger, hoping for the one-time seam pass that we threaten but never actually connect (by design, because we’re lining up a point shot instead).

His thinking isn’t wrong, and he’s fully within his rights to make the choice to walk away. None of that is problematic — it was us that chose to make all of this happen, not him. The unprofessional part was the slouching around, visibly checked out.

 

[MrazeksVengeance]

What are your feelings on bacon sausage? Hah.

I love andouille, chorizo, and kielbasa. But sometimes cravings can only be satisfied by thick strips of bacon

SURE WHY NOT. OVERRATED DOESN’T MEAN BAD.

…

THE WORD “SAUSAGE” IS INSUFFICIENT.

WURST IN GERMAN COVERS THE TOPIC MUCH BETTER.

 

[Anton Dubinchuk]

So he went to Dallas, which is far from a free wheeling team. Immediately committed long term and has doubled his scoring pace there.

It’s not that Rantanen needed to be somewhere that he could run around like Necas, or ride a superstar’s coattails. It’s just a matter of his not wanting to be in a creatively stifling system like ours.

Besides, this is not a guy who was going to change anything structurally about our offense. Look at how he plays — for a star, he’s not particularly artistic about getting his points. He loves the one-timer, he has a heavy wrist shot without moving his feet, he make plays at a rapid speed but he’s not especially fast physically. I’m sure Tulsky looked at him and thought, “here’s a guy who fits our system the same way Necas fits Colorado’s”. But, there’s a big difference between someone thinking you’d succeed in a new role, versus your actually enjoying that role and having a desire to do it long term.

That’s the actual rub with all of this. Tulsky was extremely open about saying that the Necas trade bought him a window to sell Rantanen on a future here. Rantanen heard them out, knowing that he could have the money, the wins, the nice weather and the nice people in any number of places as a UFA. The sticking point was that he couldn’t see himself playing in a system where he would be just another bumper winger, hoping for the one-time seam pass that we threaten but never actually connect (by design, because we’re lining up a point shot instead).

His thinking isn’t wrong, and he’s fully within his rights to make the choice to walk away. None of that is problematic — it was us that chose to make all of this happen, not him. The unprofessional part was the slouching around, visibly checked out.

He also was like, kind of worse at our system than expected. Big body with strong offensive instincts that will feast in the Canes heavy grinding system. That's more or less what the initial analysis was by the front office, media, and people who know this stuff.

He fell down a lot. Like, a lot a lot. This wasn't Jordan Staal with offense. This was a system mismatch. And I'm sure he would've figured it out, and it's not like the offense didn't look good when he was out there. It did, he's a great player and does enough to make up for the system mismatch. But watching him try to play "the system" and then immediately fall over along the boards every time he got the puck was tough. It seemed like he fell over 3 times per shift sometimes.

I don't blame him for getting 10 games in, doing that, and saying "this sucks." I was getting worried myself by the end. I don't know that it was a lack of willingness to engage with it. He was trying. And falling down a lot.

All's well that ends well. I won't be broken up if the Rantanen signing goes very poorly for Dallas, but won't be going out of my way to root for it either. Out of sight out of mind, he's back in the West and as irrelevant to the Canes as he was before the trade.

 

[MyLuckyPuck]

I hope the video tribute montage when he returns is an entire gag reel of him falling down. This guy deserves every bit of razzing he is going to get when he plays in Carolina. Again, had he shown some integrity, I feel certain he would still be here. Trading him was not about oh he rejected our contract offer.

 

[Nikishin al Gaib]

He also was like, kind of worse at our system than expected. Big body with strong offensive instincts that will feast in the Canes heavy grinding system. That's more or less what the initial analysis was by the front office, media, and people who know this stuff.

He fell down a lot. Like, a lot a lot. This wasn't Jordan Staal with offense. This was a system mismatch. And I'm sure he would've figured it out, and it's not like the offense didn't look good when he was out there. It did, he's a great player and does enough to make up for the system mismatch. But watching him try to play "the system" and then immediately fall over along the boards every time he got the puck was tough. It seemed like he fell over 3 times per shift sometimes.

I don't blame him for getting 10 games in, doing that, and saying "this sucks." I was getting worried myself by the end. I don't know that it was a lack of willingness to engage with it. He was trying. And falling down a lot.

All's well that ends well. I won't be broken up if the Rantanen signing goes very poorly for Dallas, but won't be going out of my way to root for it either. Out of sight out of mind, he's back in the West and as irrelevant to the Canes as he was before the trade.

I mean you're talking about a guy who made up his mind before he got here that he didn't want to play in this system and went through the motions trying to force his way out. He didn't fit our system because he didn't give half an ounce of a shit in trying to play within our system. He sucked out loud on the ice from the minute he got here to the minute he left, he barely even tried to hide it.

 

[MyLuckyPuck]

I mean you're talking about a guy who made up his mind before he got here that he didn't want to play in this system and went through the motions trying to force his way out. He didn't fit our system because he didn't give half an ounce of a shit in trying to play within our system. He sucked out loud on the ice from the minute he got here to the minute he left, he barely even tried to hide it.

Now this guy gets it.

 

[tarheelhockey]

He also was like, kind of worse at our system than expected. Big body with strong offensive instincts that will feast in the Canes heavy grinding system. That's more or less what the initial analysis was by the front office, media, and people who know this stuff.

He fell down a lot. Like, a lot a lot. This wasn't Jordan Staal with offense. This was a system mismatch. And I'm sure he would've figured it out, and it's not like the offense didn't look good when he was out there. It did, he's a great player and does enough to make up for the system mismatch. But watching him try to play "the system" and then immediately fall over along the boards every time he got the puck was tough. It seemed like he fell over 3 times per shift sometimes.

I don't blame him for getting 10 games in, doing that, and saying "this sucks." I was getting worried myself by the end. I don't know that it was a lack of willingness to engage with it. He was trying. And falling down a lot.

All's well that ends well. I won't be broken up if the Rantanen signing goes very poorly for Dallas, but won't be going out of my way to root for it either. Out of sight out of mind, he's back in the West and as irrelevant to the Canes as he was before the trade.

That was the weirdest and most disappointing part of it for me. It’s not like he didn’t have an incentive to perform, seeing as he was actively making the case for his career contract. And even understanding that he was not a fan of the role, superficially it seemed like he would have fit into the system like a glove. I think Tulsky saw that, and wouldn’t have made the trade otherwise.

It was a moment where anyone would have expected him to self-showcase. Instead he just kind of imploded mentally.

 

[DaveG]

I mean you're talking about a guy who made up his mind before he got here that he didn't want to play in this system and went through the motions trying to force his way out. He didn't fit our system because he didn't give half an ounce of a shit in trying to play within our system. He sucked out loud on the ice from the minute he got here to the minute he left, he barely even tried to hide it.

I'm not 100% that it was before he got here that he was determined NOT to make it work, but by the time they returned from the 4 Nations? Oh yeah, 100% could tell the guy was checked out.

I will still throw him under the bus for dragging out the talks with Dallas as long as he did on deadline day on an extension, knowing that was one of the places he was good to go to, preventing the Canes from completing any subsequent trades aside from Jankowski who was an entirely unrelated deal and probably would've been completed either way.

 

[Stickpucker]

That was the weirdest and most disappointing part of it for me. It’s not like he didn’t have an incentive to perform, seeing as he was actively making the case for his career contract. And even understanding that he was not a fan of the role, superficially it seemed like he would have fit into the system like a glove. I think Tulsky saw that, and wouldn’t have made the trade otherwise.

It was a moment where anyone would have expected him to self-showcase. Instead he just kind of imploded mentally.

He pooped himself and Tulsky knows the only thing you can do with a turd is to flush it.

 

[The Faulker 27]

I hope the video tribute montage when he returns is an entire gag reel of him falling down. This guy deserves every bit of razzing he is going to get when he plays in Carolina. Again, had he shown some integrity, I feel certain he would still be here. Trading him was not about oh he rejected our contract offer.

To this tune too. Would be so great.

 

[Discipline Daddy]

Going back to Guentzel, my understanding now is the team was very afraid of "the RFAs getting offer-sheeted". Translation - there was smoke that Jarvis was going to get an offer sheet. I could see some team with cap space going crazy with $11.45M or something with the compensation being 1st, 1st, 2nd, 3rd. Or, at least a team going $9.16M for 1st, 2nd, 3rd.

If we did ink Guentzel at the get-go for $8Mx8 years, that effectively shrinks our capspace by $8M. It would probably mean briding Jarvis and getting him to agree to $5-6M for 2 years, which feels risky. You can subtract Carrier's $2M, Walker's $3.6M, and Martinook's $3.05M. That and the Jarvis bridge would give us enough room to fill in the rest of the roster holes, about $10M. It'd mean we would have less depth and we would probably rely on Morrow and a cheaper UFA for the bottom pair.

Honestly, in hindsight, we could have probably done it. But I can see why the Borg was extremely reluctant to extend Guentzel while knowing we were going to lose Skjei, Pesce, Teuvo, Noesen, and probably Martinook and Chatfield, and maybe not locking in Jarvis. Not to make excuses, but it was the perfect shitstorm of contract extensions, and the worst possible offseason to sign Guentzel, especially so when we only got him a few months' prior and couldn't see the fit all season. I suppose the Borg could have gotten ahead of it a little bit by extending say Chatfield midseason, but even he probably wanted to see what the #s looked like in UFA land before settling here.

 

[Blueline Bomber]

The problem is at the beginning of the off-season, they said their focus was getting Jarvis and Guentzel signed to new deals. They were the priority. So to miss out on one of your priority targets because of the worry that we might have to rely on the prospects we've been developing for years now doesn't make it any better

Especially when all of this (and, frankly, the Rantanen trade deadline issue) could have been avoided if we had more people working with the GM. With more people, we could have worked on Jarvis' new contract and Guentzel's contract, and even scout potential UFA acquisitions. We have a barebones management staff, and it's come back to bite us a few times now.

 

[tarheelhockey]

He pooped himself and Tulsky knows the only thing you can do with a turd is to flush it.

Based on what we already know about Dundon, and a couple of stray media comments about his involvement in the decision, I have a feeling this was one of those “explain to me like I’m five how you’re not just throwing away my money” situations.

 

[Finlandia WOAT]

Especially when all of this (and, frankly, the Rantanen trade deadline issue) could have been avoided if we had more people working with the GM

If we assume it's true that Guentzel was genuinely interested in re-signing and would have done so had they met his price, then I don't think the problem was a lack of personnel, the problem was trying to play hardball until Guentzel noped out. And given they immediately promised to back up the Brinks truck they seem to think this was also the issue.

 

[Blueline Bomber]

If we assume it's true that Guentzel was genuinely interested in re-signing and would have done so had they met his price, then I don't think the problem was a lack of personnel, the problem was trying to play hardball until Guentzel noped out. And given they immediately promised to back up the Brinks truck they seem to think this was also the issue.

But if they were trying to lower Guentzel's contract because they were worried about a Jarvis' offer sheet (as Discipline postured above), having more personnel would have allowed them to work on both contracts simultaneously, and it likely wouldn't have taken until 2 days from FA to have found a suitable compromise for Guentzel.

Likewise, having more personnel would have allowed us to work out this Dallas/Rantanen deal and immediately fax over new deadline deals once it was complete, instead of having Tulsky reapproach the deals hours later only to find them passed by (allegedly what happened with the Boeser deal).

 

[Discipline Daddy]

But if they were trying to lower Guentzel's contract because they were worried about a Jarvis' offer sheet (as Discipline postured above), having more personnel would have allowed them to work on both contracts simultaneously, and it likely wouldn't have taken until 2 days from FA to have found a suitable compromise for Guentzel.

Likewise, having more personnel would have allowed us to work out this Dallas/Rantanen deal and immediately fax over new deadline deals once it was complete, instead of having Tulsky reapproach the deals hours later only to find them passed by (allegedly what happened with the Boeser deal).

I don't think it's as much about the Borg not having enough personnel. But I do think they are in on EVERYTHING, and so they have 38 contengencies with every moving player in the league, and that's a complicated web to work out. This is probably a more favorable approach than just finding "their guy" and going for it hell or high water, but it also leads to sometimes failing to make a deal altogether when facing a hard deadline.

I guess they could have maybe locked up Jarvis earlier in the season, but he probably wanted to bet on himself to an extent. Couple that with also losing GM Waddell just after the playoffs. And also Jarvis's contract had a crazy deferred money strategy. And we were also re-upping Slavin. Again, perfect storm.

Tulsky probably underestimated how a 30-ish UFA looking for his last big deal wanted to be courted by a front office giving him his reasonable salary demands in a quicker timeframe. Tulsky may thought coming in late would be prudent for the whole organization, and Guentzel probably found it standoffish and non-committal to him.

 

[GIN ANTONIC]

I don't think it's as much about the Borg not having enough personnel. But I do think they are in on EVERYTHING, and so they have 38 contengencies with every moving player in the league, and that's a complicated web to work out. This is probably a more favorable approach than just finding "their guy" and going for it hell or high water, but it also leads to sometimes failing to make a deal altogether when facing a hard deadline.

I guess they could have maybe locked up Jarvis earlier in the season, but he probably wanted to bet on himself to an extent. Couple that with also losing GM Waddell just after the playoffs. And also Jarvis's contract had a crazy deferred money strategy. And we were also re-upping Slavin. Again, perfect storm.

Tulsky probably underestimated how a 30-ish UFA looking for his last big deal wanted to be courted by a front office giving him his reasonable salary demands in a quicker timeframe. Tulsky may thought coming in late would be prudent for the whole organization, and Guentzel probably found it standoffish and non-committal to him.

Ya... I'm not buying perfect storm theory. That's a shitty excuse. You're an NHL club and this is your job. Saying the situation was more challenging than 'normal' doesn't cut it when you don't get the result you should have. That's what you're being paid to be prepared for. None of this was a surprise, even if Waddell leaving wasn't accounted for. Shit happens, deal with it. They didn't.

 

[the halleJOKEL]

the same people saying "lame excuse" are the same people who would be absolutely flipping their shit if we signed guentzel then had a massive jarvis offer sheet come through the next day

 

[TheReelChuckFletcher]

Even with the unfortunate Guentzel departure, the Canes sort of came out of it incredibly well. In the end, team depth is what makes our club click, and the Canes not only locked their true big fish (Jarvis) for almost his entire prime, they were successfully able to maintain the vast bulk of the depth despite a bunch of turnover.

 

[AhosDatsyukian]

I seem to be the only one but I'm completely fine with not keeping Guentzel. His contract is fine and he'd be a fine player to have but I don't think he moves the needle so much that we should be bummed losing him. We can spend that cap elsewhere and be just as well off, if not better. Of course depends on moves we make from here on out but I do still trust this front office to spend that cap space wisely and continue to draft/develop well. They've earned the trust with the sustained success and perennial contender status we've had since '18-19. Still not a fan of how we handled Necas ultimately but that's a small blip and not all moves are going to work out no matter how great a team's front office is.

 

[Navin R Slavin]

Ya... I'm not buying perfect storm theory. That's a shitty excuse. You're an NHL club and this is your job. Saying the situation was more challenging than 'normal' doesn't cut it when you don't get the result you should have. That's what you're being paid to be prepared for. None of this was a surprise, even if Waddell leaving wasn't accounted for. Shit happens, deal with it. They didn't.

They didn't? I mean, on the ice, it kinda looks like they did.

This team is top 5 in the league during a "down year" and has a pipeline that continues to be stacked. If your expectations are higher than that, I think that's a you problem.

 

[TheReelChuckFletcher]

They didn't? I mean, on the ice, it kinda looks like they did.

This team is top 5 in the league during a "down year" and a pipeline that continues to be stacked. If your expectations are higher than that, I think that's a you problem.

Also a very important point to make: the Hurricanes also own the single-best 4-year winning record of any franchise at the moment, at a .681 win percentage. The next best is Colorado at .669. The Hockey Guy pointed this out in his recent video.

 

[GIN ANTONIC]

They didn't? I mean, on the ice, it kinda looks like they did.

This team is top 5 in the league during a "down year" and has a pipeline that continues to be stacked. If your expectations are higher than that, I think that's a you problem.

I mean using ‘it was a perfect storm of events’ as an excuse for not being able to re-sign Guentzel because of lack or personnel and a potential Jarvis offer sheet. It wasn’t a perfect storm. It was poor planning if that’s the reason why they couldn’t get it done