Rabid Ranger
2 is better than one
I always thought the way the Modano situation was handled was a farce. I guess it's to his credit he stayed classy about it.
Captaincy Removed
- Thread starter ilovetheflyers8
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I don't think Trevor Linden had any choice but to offer the "C" to Messier. The fact that Messier accepted it speaks volumes about his supposed "leadership".
Mark Messier is one of the all-time greats, but his behaviour in Vancouver was a disgrace. Every time I hear about this "Mark Messier Leadership Award", I want to puke.
Mark Messier is one of the all-time greats, but his behaviour in Vancouver was a disgrace. Every time I hear about this "Mark Messier Leadership Award", I want to puke.
Sonny Lamateena
Registered User
Linden said he felt he didn't have a choice because if things went wrong and he didn't give it up he would be blamed. To me that kind of reasoning reeks of a weak leader.
is this some kind of bait? if you mean that linden was a third-liner his last seasons with vancouver, when he was old, way off his prime and his game had fallen off the pin after some disillusional years with the islanders, canadiens and capitals, then ok so be it ... but in his prime, 1988-96, he was way better than that and everyone old enough to remember the 1994 stanley cup playoffs knows it's a fact
blame it on the boogie
trades for picks and tricks are made under the premises of current situations. with this logic you can make a solid argument for everything. and if it actually was the best thing that ever happened the canucks then i only have one question ... where's the cup? haven't seen it around
he can walk [skate] on [frozen] water
and he had a much more graceful skating style. everytime i see messier skate on old tapes it reminds me of a low positioned horse on rollerblades
They got Deadmarsh out of it who was part of that huge win over the Red Wings that year. Didnt they also get first rounders in 2002 and 2003 (great year to have a late first rounder). I thought considering the circumstances they got great value.
Imagine the uproar if a UFA to be get traded for a great young player and multiple first round picks this deadline. The board will crash about the overpayment and gutting the farm etc etc.
Sakic offered the C to Ray Bourque after 2000 season. He was no weak leader. Neither was Linden.
Moses Doughty
Registered User
- Aug 19, 2008
- 9,107
- 690
Do Nucks fans have to hold decade old grudges to be a good fan of the team?
GET OVER IT ALREADY!!
GET OVER IT ALREADY!!
Modano's wife Willa Ford is the one who *****ed and moaned about it. So trust me it wasn't as classy as people think.
http://nhl.fanhouse.com/2007/05/10/willa-ford-standing-up-for-her-man/
Sonny Lamateena
Registered User
I don't know the reasoning behind Sakic offering the C to Bourque so I can't speak on that. Linden said the reason he gave the C to Messier was he felt he had no choice, that if he didn't and things went wrong he would be second guessed. That is weak. Step up, have confidence in yourself and your ability to lead the team, don't be afraid of what will happen if you lose. Messier wasn't afraid to fail, or take the heat, no guts no glory.
15 consecutive losing seasons (1976-91 - worst all-time in the NHL and just one short of the all-time record in all North American pro sports) and no Stanley Cups... what else is there?
http://www.getlisty.com/preview/sports-worst-losing-streaks/
Linden scored 80 points as 26 year-old, capping off an eight-year run as offensive producer. After that, he never did better than 19-goals or 47-points (only breaking 40 points three times in total). That's 11 seasons of his 19-year career was a low-to-mediocre offensive performer (or 10, really, as 47 on a weak NYI team was pretty good). I would say the term 'second/third-liner' is very apt. And don't blame his decline on injuries or age; Linden was the NHL's iron-man during that 80-point campaign and was only twenty-six.
He was no Mark Messier.
Not sure what you're talking about here.
I don't really get what you're saying in this first part. . .'premises of current situations'. The fact is: Linden begat Bertuzzi who begat Luongo. Linden ALSO begat McCabe who begat (in part) the Sedins.
That trade, and its offshoot, IS the best thing to ever happen to the Canucks. Four of the Franchise's ten best players came about as a result of that trade. . .although there's no Cup, that's more a condemnation of Vancouver's history of icing really ****** hockey teams. I hope you`re not suggesting that if Linden had remained captain that they would have won one?
You mean on the old tapes where Messier is scoring, setting up plays, hitting, being one of the dirtiest ****s in league history, and leading his teams to multiple Stanley Cup championships?
the decline obviously starts when he's kicked out off the team by a sleazy management blinded by an old low positioned skating horse on rollerblades
thank you god for that
begat ... is that shakespeare?
i am going to make a phone call, discussing the evolution with charles darwin
i'll be back
Moses Doughty
Registered User
- Aug 19, 2008
- 9,107
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15 consecutive losing seasons (1976-91 - worst all-time in the NHL and just one short of the all-time record in all North American pro sports) and no Stanley Cups... what else is there?
http://www.getlisty.com/preview/sports-worst-losing-streaks/
Messier going to the Canucks just a few years after he beat you in the Finals
But really, some Nucks fans(one in particular) hold a serious grudge against Messier for no apparent reason.
Linden's time in Vancouver should have just been about up in either case... probably shouldn't have been brought back either I believe the team would have been better off for it.
Anyways, Quinn wasn't Messier's guy if I remember right he really wanted nothing to do with him... the Messier signing was pretty much all John McCaw at that time the new owner of the Canucks.
Linden was pressured into giving up the C as the Media pretty much demanded it and Linden couldn't deal with it.. everyone proclaimed the Team as Messier's team and they were right in doing so... I remember reading one article back during the signing by one writer who said he wouldn't be shocked at all if Messier was still a dominant force in his mid 40s....
Messier deserve some of the criticism he gets in this town but not nearly to the level he gets... it's a shame a new deal didn't get done with him for him to stay in Vancouver like he wanted... but then again if that happened who knows what the future would have been like.
Anyways, Quinn wasn't Messier's guy if I remember right he really wanted nothing to do with him... the Messier signing was pretty much all John McCaw at that time the new owner of the Canucks.
Linden was pressured into giving up the C as the Media pretty much demanded it and Linden couldn't deal with it.. everyone proclaimed the Team as Messier's team and they were right in doing so... I remember reading one article back during the signing by one writer who said he wouldn't be shocked at all if Messier was still a dominant force in his mid 40s....
Messier deserve some of the criticism he gets in this town but not nearly to the level he gets... it's a shame a new deal didn't get done with him for him to stay in Vancouver like he wanted... but then again if that happened who knows what the future would have been like.
Hmmmmmmmmm.................Messier going to the Canucks just a few years after he beat you in the Finals
But really, some Nucks fans(one in particular) hold a serious grudge against Messier for no apparent reason.
Messier signed for the 1997-98 season in a three year $20 million deal and had his worst season since he was a rookie points wise and then was injured for the next two seasons.
And the Canucks during his tenure?
1997-98 - Out of Playoffs
1998-99 - Out of Playoffs
1999-00 - Out of Playoffs
No idea why they would hold a grudge based upon that.
Because it was Messier's fault the Canucks went into the tank?
I blame Quinn.. it was because of him and guys like Trevor Linden that the Canucks turned into a country club and really his damn loyalty to his vets.
The Canucks missed the playoffs the year before Messier came in and it was clearly time for change.
Of course you could say that the club was a country club under Messier and Keenan which they were.. but once Keenan was shown the door and Crow brought in the team really rebounded, they were in fact a playoff caliber team in 99-00 and make it easily if it wasn't for long term injuries to Messier and Ohlund.. and in fact Messier was probably the teams best player that year, even more than Naslund.
Also it was because of Messier that Pavel Bure decided to stay in Vancouver that final year that he did.
I blame Quinn.. it was because of him and guys like Trevor Linden that the Canucks turned into a country club and really his damn loyalty to his vets.
The Canucks missed the playoffs the year before Messier came in and it was clearly time for change.
Of course you could say that the club was a country club under Messier and Keenan which they were.. but once Keenan was shown the door and Crow brought in the team really rebounded, they were in fact a playoff caliber team in 99-00 and make it easily if it wasn't for long term injuries to Messier and Ohlund.. and in fact Messier was probably the teams best player that year, even more than Naslund.
Also it was because of Messier that Pavel Bure decided to stay in Vancouver that final year that he did.
superhakan
Gaudreauby Baker
- Dec 2, 2008
- 2,663
- 1
actually Craig offered Jarome the captaincy on his own decision. Jarome Accepted and has been captain ever since.
So Trevor Linden was of such weak character that one bad experience ruined over 50% of career. Gotcha. Clearly, a guy I would want for a Captain!
Your hypothesis over time seems to have transformed from, 'Messier screwed Vancouver' into, 'Linden was a better player than Messier'. I really, really, hope that's not what you are suggesting! You don't think that Linden was a better player than Messier, do you? (and don't say, 'he was in Vancouver'. Career-wise)
Biblical. I'm continuing a theme here; Messiahs, Jesus, Judas, Begat. . .
yes, that one. anyone moved to that new york islanders team would have been traumatized for life
i haven't really said that linden was a better player than messier, although talent wise there wasn't much of a difference. messier played all his best years in edmonton with wayne gretzky, jari kurri, paul coffey and then in new york with brian leetch, alexei kovalev, steve larmer and the like when the nhl was in its most offensive period which sky rocketed his stats to cocobello levels like a bernie nicholls 70+80 150 season ...
the one thing that differs is personality, style, soul, love, something that goes beyond simple results. something that makes you stick with it through thick and thin ... it's very easy to like trevor
as easy as it is to dislike his opposite
the book of revelation [aka the apocalypse, aka 'the bible goes nuts, again ... ']
5:11 then i looked and heard the voice of many angels, numbering thousands upon thousands, and ten thousand times ten thousand. they encircled the throne and the living creatures and the elders.
5:12 in a loud voice they sang:
'worthy is the lamb, who was slain,
to receive power and wealth and wisdom and strength
and honor and glory and praise!'
If you surveyed 100 hockey pundits, I doubt you would any that would agree that between Messier and Linden "talent wise there wasn't much of a difference".i haven't really said that linden was a better player than messier, although talent wise there wasn't much of a difference. messier played all his best years in edmonton with wayne gretzky, jari kurri, paul coffey and then in new york with brian leetch, alexei kovalev, steve larmer and the like when the nhl was in its most offensive period which sky rocketed his stats to cocobello levels like a bernie nicholls 70+80 150 season ...
the one thing that differs is personality, style, soul, love, something that goes beyond simple results. something that makes you stick with it through thick and thin ... it's very easy to like trevor
as easy as it is to dislike his opposite
There was a huge difference regardless of the supporting cast.
Linden lost my respect when he colluded with Saskin to deep-six Goodenow. And look how that turned out.
Nalyd Psycho
Registered User
When did Jean Beliveau sign with the Canucks?
Messier isn't even one of the top 10 leaders in history. His ego gets in the way too much.
messier scored 50 goals blank in one of his 80 000 nhl seasons ... that's despite the fact that he played on the probably most loaded nhl team ever offensively, a pp with gretzky, kurri, coffey ...
where's that huge difference?
for example, pavel bure scored back to back 59 and 58 goals with viktor kozlov, marcus nilson, ivan novoseltsev, robert svehla and paul laus on the pp
... that's what i call a huge differencelinden was a clean player on the ice, messier was close to a scum
Fighter
Registered User
I cannot believe how much credit Messier gets for his supposed leadership, there is no other player who is more overrated in NHL history.
Yeah, Messier is overrated. Of course, HFBoards is also where Lidstrom is better than Orr.
Regardless, I was done when I read there 'wasn't much of a difference' between Linden and Messier.
Regardless, I was done when I read there 'wasn't much of a difference' between Linden and Messier.
I was unaware that talented players had to play "clean".messier scored 50 goals blank in one of his 80 000 nhl seasons ... that's despite the fact that he played on the probably most loaded nhl team ever offensively, a pp with gretzky, kurri, coffey ...
where's that huge difference?
for example, pavel bure scored back to back 59 and 58 goals with viktor kozlov, marcus nilson, ivan novoseltsev, robert svehla and paul laus on the pp
linden was a clean player on the ice, messier was close to a scum
Gordie Howe would like to speak with you about that and Hal Laycoe may have something to say about Rocket Richard breaking not one but two sticks over him .
And Bure delivered "the mother of all elbows" to Shane Churla if you recall.
If your opinion is that Mark Messier and Trevor Linden are close in talent level, you are welcome to that opinion but I suspect that would not be widely shared. And certainly not by his fellow players who voted Messier two Pearson Awards.
Messier has six Stanley Cups and internationally three Canada Cup Tournaments (1984, 1987 and 1991), one World Championship (1989) and one World Cup (1996). 38 international games and 32 points.
Messier
Regular season:
1756GP 694G 1193A 1887PTS 1910PIMs
Post_season
236GP 109G 186A 295PTS 244PIMs
NHL First All-Star Team (1982, 1983, 1990, 1992)
NHL Second All-Star Team (1984)
Conn Smythe Trophy (1984)
Lester B. Pearson Award (1990, 1992)
Hart Trophy (1990, 1992)
Linden:
Regular season:
1382GP 375G 492A 867PTS 895PIMs
Post-season:
124GP 34G 65A 99PTS 104PIMs
No all-star selections, no individual performance awards and no Stanley Cup.
Messier is in the Hockey Hall of Fame. Linden seems an unlikely candidate.
Mark has done so much for the game of hockey and taught so many of our young players. He was an exceptional leader who was unselfish, hard-working and dedicated - Wayne Gretzky
Seems like a huge difference to me.
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